Pro soccer coming to Detroit?

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · May-01-16, 09:19 PM

Although my very strong preference is for the fail jail site on the merits of putting a stadium there, I want to make 2 other points.

1) As with naming children or choosing which kind of pasta to order, it is possible that there are many different good answers to the question, "Where should we put a soccer stadium in Detroit?" My support for fail jail is not a knock on any other site.

2) Having the GilbertGores MLS project take shape at the fail jail site might be the only way to extract both an existing and a potential future eyesore from a prime downtown location. This is an additional reason to support that spot, in my opinion. While there is substantial merit to other potential locations, none of them have the added bonus of moving the jail out of downtown. That is a real plus.

**emu steve** · May-02-16, 05:24 AM

Just curious:

IF DG and Gores do not get the fail jail site, does DG lose interest in a soccer team?

Is a big attraction that specific site? Is it a de facto 'package deal', i.e., we want a soccer team but ONLY at that site [[and can make the point that the site maximizes the chance of the team being a big success)?

Does DG have an 'out' - if I can't get my preferred site, I don't feel it is a sound investment?

I'm not convinced the team would do equally well regardless of the site.

Also, I have a hunch that DG/Gores would spend MORE on the stadium if it were at the marque site, and not some out-of-the-way site.

DG is heavily committed to that area and would not try to cut corners to save $.

**mikeg19** · May-02-16, 05:52 AM

I feel like this is an all or nothing offer. It's that site or else. From his comments and even the MLS commissioner, the location is one of the factors in okaying the MLS expansion here.

Now it could be a power play with his remark "we have no plan B" but it could also hold true. In my opinion, DG is not the kinda guy who doesn't have a plan B or C even.

**DeLemur** · May-02-16, 08:41 AM

Yeah I agree. Gilbert is hyper focused on this particular location and also feel like its an all or nothing offer. That's why the MLS guy used particular language on their interest in THIS site.
It's also why its sketchy to me.

I wonder where Mayor Duggan fits into all of this and his brother's team the MI Bucks. Duggan is likely caught between MLS prospects of Gilbert/Gore and city gains with maybe his brother's interest in climbing the soccer ladder and growth in the U.S. He also must sympathize with Evans and a shotty budget to deal with.

Also - [[not to get too soap opera focused) how about Little Ceaser's arena announcement right after Gilbert MLS? You think Ilitch is getting irked at growing Gilbertville and rushed the announcement? Or vice versa and Gilbert pushed it ahead?

Lastly, you guys buy this do we want a jail welcoming people to downtown thing? As if we should be scared of a jail? I laugh at this fear mongering stuff. Keeping people confined is not rocket science. Playing off people's irrational fears is the worst kind of leadership.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · May-02-16, 08:43 AM

I bet that they would still have an interest in a team without the site, but that it would be a lot less valuable to them elsewhere. Not only does the fail jail site provide a ready pool of potential patrons for his casino, but hotel, apartment and office buildings will be able to charge more rent than elsewhere in the city. And I agree that DG- or for that matter any person of the massive business success either one has had- almost certainly has a plan B or C. But it does make sense that fail jail site might warrant spending $1B on several projects including an MLS team, whereas somewhere west of Grand River or at the fairgrounds site might only warrant the actual stadium cost and license fee [[<$300M).

**EL Jimbo** · May-02-16, 09:48 AM

What if the Jail was moved to the area behind the Fox? I'm not sure the Illitches would go for it, but there appears to be enough open land available there in theory.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · May-02-16, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by EL Jimbo

What if the Jail was moved to the area behind the Fox? I'm not sure the Illitches would go for it, but there appears to be enough open land available there in theory.

This is a non-starter for a few reasons. First, there already is an existing, logical and essentially free site for the jail: the now-shuttered state correctional facility at Mound Rd, which would require both renovation and new construction to meet the county's needs. Second, if the Ilitches were to want to give up their substantial land holdings behind the Fox, I am sure they would be trying to sell them to the GilGor group already. Lastly, swapping out a jail complex at the Gratiot entrance to downtown for one at the Grand River entrance to downtown does not seem much of an improvement for any party involved.

**ABetterDetroit** · May-02-16, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

This is a non-starter for a few reasons. First, there already is an existing, logical and essentially free site for the jail: the now-shuttered state correctional facility at Mound Rd, which would require both renovation and new construction to meet the county's needs. Second, if the Ilitches were to want to give up their substantial land holdings behind the Fox, I am sure they would be trying to sell them to the GilGor group already. Lastly, swapping out a jail complex at the Gratiot entrance to downtown for one at the Grand River entrance to downtown does not seem much of an improvement for any party involved.

According to the signage and this website Mound Road is not "shuttered". Just way under utilized. It appears that everyone arrested in Detroit goes there first, then if held transported somewhere else.

https://www.michigan.gov/corrections...4404--,00.html

**masterblaster** · May-02-16, 06:53 PM

I hope Gilbert and Gores works with the Detroit City FC and the leaders of their "Northern Guard" fanbase. They have created an organic, grassroots soccer phenomena in this city, and hopefully what Detroit City FC has created can be captured and incorporated into this MLS team.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · May-02-16, 09:39 PM

I stand corrected, ABD. I don't get out there much.

**Hypestyles** · May-02-16, 09:45 PM

so what are ticket prices like for MLS in other cities? Are they dealbreaker expensive for modest-income types?

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · May-02-16, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by masterblaster

I hope Gilbert and Gores works with the Detroit City FC and the leaders of their "Northern Guard" fanbase. They have created an organic, grassroots soccer phenomena in this city, and hopefully what Detroit City FC has created can be captured and incorporated into this MLS team.

Completely agree. This could be a chance to build soccer in Detroit and all of Michigan, and I think they could and should cross-polinate soccer enthusiasm in the community, work together on soccer clinics for kids, perhaps offer ticket packages together, etc.

Separately but related, since MLS likes to partner their teams with a minor league team, I hope the Detroit team establishes a team in Grand Rapids, so that fans across the state can follow players and grow their support for soccer in Michigan in general. I would also love to find a way to incorporate girls [[school) and womens [[college; perhaps one day pro) soccer into the professional community. Soccer is a sport millions of women have played, and that gets good ratings for international & world cup play.

**swingline** · May-03-16, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by masterblaster

I hope Gilbert and Gores works with the Detroit City FC and the leaders of their "Northern Guard" fanbase. They have created an organic, grassroots soccer phenomena in this city, and hopefully what Detroit City FC has created can be captured and incorporated into this MLS team.

Both the DCFC supporters groups and the Gilbert/Gores effort have bungled this initial MLS campaign rollout.

On the one hand, it seems that through regular and social media the supporters have projected an overblown attitude of entitlement to a kind of equal seat at the table. This is almost comical. Serious, committed supporters number less than 1500 individuals. They have no financial commitment to the effort. Have they ever done something easy like circulate a pledge drive to become MLS season ticket buyers? The anti-establishment/outsider attitude of many supporters actually results in many preferring support for a “local” team over any “corporate” MLS Detroit team. And DCFC ownership has always indicated that they were never seeking to become MLS owners. Gilbert/Gores will have to put hundreds of millions of dollars at risk to get an MLS franchise. Negotiations for the franchise and the stadium project will be complex and require confidentiality in order to be effective. This is about real estate development and urban planning as much as it is about soccer. The supporters groups wouldn’t add much to the effort at this preliminary stage. It’s not unreasonable to look at the supporters’ attitude and wonder where they get off with their current level of entitlement.

On the other hand, any prospective ownership group would be wise to focus on creating an involved and passionate fan culture around its team. Fan culture like one that can be seen surrounding teams like Portland and Seattle do not arise out thin air or paid consultant marketing efforts. They start organically and require committed everyday people. The DCFC supporters have made a remarkable start in a few short years toward creating that kind of culture in Detroit. Gilbert/Gores shouldn’t squander that. They should harness the work that has already been done. The supporters should be respected by ownership and consulted regularly for ideas for creating the best MLS franchise possible. Gilbert/Gores should do a better job of this moving forward.

**kazoo22** · May-04-16, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by swingline

On the other hand, any prospective ownership group would be wise to focus on creating an involved and passionate fan culture around its team. Fan culture like one that can be seen surrounding teams like Portland and Seattle do not arise out thin air or paid consultant marketing efforts. They start organically and require committed everyday people. The DCFC supporters have made a remarkable start in a few short years toward creating that kind of culture in Detroit. Gilbert/Gores shouldn’t squander that. They should harness the work that has already been done. The supporters should be respected by ownership and consulted regularly for ideas for creating the best MLS franchise possible. Gilbert/Gores should do a better job of this moving forward.

The DCFC supporters are great, but the only way to make this work financially is if the casual sports fan ends up going to games. At most, supporter groups have around 3,000 members and you need to fill a 25,000 seats stadium. But I think that Arn Tellem and Matt Cullen know exactly what they're getting into, especially Arn who's a former sports agent. The advantage Detroit has over Portland and Seattle is that, we have a large middle eastern-east european community who love soccer. I know a lot of Lebanese, Iraqi, Greek, Romanian, Bosnian etc. people who live in the Detroit area. During my time at Wayne State, they always asked me why there was no MLS team here. The only thing soccer would compete with here is baseball and baseball has a completely different fan base. Just my opinion, but I truly believe soccer can work here.

**Hypestyles** · May-04-16, 10:52 AM

If it doesn't happen downtown, there are other locations in the city for sure. The above mentioned neighborhoods are options. Also I would add the former Mound Correctional facility should be an option as well. it's kind of barely used at this point. Why not turn that complex into an entertainment destination?

sidebar: Aaron Foley of BLAC Detroit responds to Drew Sharp's opinion that MLS has no chance here- http://www.blacdetroit.com/BLAC-Detr...Detroit-again/

**Bham1982** · May-04-16, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Hypestyles

sidebar: Aaron Foley of BLAC Detroit responds to Drew Sharp's opinion that MLS has no chance here- http://www.blacdetroit.com/BLAC-Detr...Detroit-again/

The Drew Sharp article was especially good. Yeah, he reiterated the consensus that sports venues aren't economic development tools, but more important, he made the critical distinction between soccer fans and MLS fans.

A city may or may not be a big soccer market, and it may or may not be a big MLS market. NYC and LA are massive soccer markets, with millions of immigrants from soccer mad countries, and some of the highest national viewership of the world's main soccer leagues, but the MLS franchiese in these cities tend to have very weak support.

MLS is different from the other U.S. leagues in that it's a minor-league, comparatively. Besides the lower quality of play, it's the deliberate, slow, physical American style of football. The stars are usually aging veterans on loan, enjoying their final professional contracts.

Soccer fans usually prefer the EPL, Bundesliga, La Liga, Serie A. MLS, at least so far, has most of its fan base in the suburban soccer mom family type demographic, and a small contingent of ultras in each town. If Detroit gets an MLS team, it's unlikely to have exact parallels with the existing Big 4 teams. A successful team would likely market a very family-oriented suburban atmosphere.

**Atticus** · July-07-16, 07:53 PM

It appears that the fail jail site may be slowly moving forward. Perhaps they will have too look elsewhere for the MLS stadium?

Crain's is reporting that it appears Wayne County is moving forward with the jail site:
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...t-jail-project

**SpartanDawg** · July-07-16, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by Atticus

It appears that the fail jail site may be slowly moving forward. Perhaps they will have too look elsewhere for the MLS stadium?

Crain's is reporting that it appears Wayne County is moving forward with the jail site:
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...t-jail-project

Free Press article from today said otherwise.. they said they're moving forward with building a jail with that contractor, but made it sound like the soccer deal could still go through, with stipulation that the financiers of that project [[gilbert, gores) have to raise the money to build the jail at a different site

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...ject/86800934/

"It’s still unclear whether construction would resume at the Gratiot site, which Evans has said would be the most cost-effective option, or at another location, such as the former Mound Correctional Facility. However, Woronchak said today that an alternative location would have to be somewhere other than Mound Road because he feels the commission has already closed the door and it is "just not a good option."
Administration officials have insisted that if the jail is built elsewhere, the soccer backers would have to ensure that it would not cost taxpayers additional money. Woronchak offered similar comments today, saying they would have to come up with funding to build a jail, courthouse and juvenile justice complex. "

**southen** · July-07-16, 09:29 PM

It seems like a good bargaining move by the county. Gilbert and Gores can afford to build the jail to get their stadium.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · July-08-16, 12:28 AM

Southen, I think you are correct. I bet the county is hoping for a payout in some form [[it might not be cash or upfront*) to both get additional jail & related space, and to rid itself of the universally acknowledged mistake known as Fail Jail.

In the meantime, they also need to cover their bases should no acceptable proposal be brought forward. So it is somewhat logical to proceed as if there won't be a good offer, then take one if there is.

As it is, I strongly believe this will work out for everyone in the end. DG/TG can afford to pay to have the jail project completed elsewhere, and their profitable enterprises will benefit from being located at that location. Since the county is in an awful position without a DG/TG rescue, almost any scenario is an improvement for them.

*I still think the best solution is to allow the developers to build the new jail/court complex at Mound Road and pay every penny of it. They will do it faster, better and at lower cost than the county doing it. When done, the county sells them the Fail Jail & surrounding site for $1. Gilbert & Gores don't need to pay a penny more than the cost of getting the taxpayers off the hook; Detroit gets a prime location MLS stadium & surrounding projects; Wayne County taxpayers don't lose any more money; those in any way affiliated with the county's criminal justice system get a nice, new place to be so affiliated.

**G-DDT** · July-08-16, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by SpartanDawg

"It’s still unclear whether construction would resume at the Gratiot site, which Evans has said would be the most cost-effective option, or at another location, such as the former Mound Correctional Facility. However, Woronchak said today that an alternative location would have to be somewhere other than Mound Road because he feels the commission has already closed the door and it is "just not a good option."
Administration officials have insisted that if the jail is built elsewhere, the soccer backers would have to ensure that it would not cost taxpayers additional money. Woronchak offered similar comments today, saying they would have to come up with funding to build a jail, courthouse and juvenile justice complex. "

Woronchak [[Republican) has sent out loaded handbill promotionals with a survey quiz that take people by the nose through the circular reasoning to hate the development. http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...deal/83614606/

I personally would like soccer in Detroit. It's a big draw for Latino, Arab, African, etc.-Americans.

My only reserve is what everyone else states: Who gets stung for it? Rich guys want to pony up and invest in it?-fine. Yet, any money going into Detroit [[taxes or from the wealthy) I'd like to see going to more important, pressing concerns first.

**dmike76** · July-08-16, 08:51 AM

A huge concern for me is that MLS loses money. I have concerns about building yet another stadium downtown that is built specifically for a league whose future seems uncertain. What if MLS fails? What would the stadium be used for when we already have three others so close to it? I'd much rather see something more traditional such as retail/entertainment/housing.

**Detroitdave** · July-08-16, 08:54 AM

First off, I would like to see the pro soccer stadium built on the Gratiot site, it just makes more sense with hotels and shopping close by, but if the county is hell bent on having their jail on Gratiot , let them built it to the insane cost and see how that goes over.
If Dan and Gore build the stadium out on mound, downtown and the city would lose out, there aren't any hotels or restaurants out there needed for something like a sports stadium.
If you build the jail out on mound it would help that area with new restaurants for the workers and visitors.
The county is looking for a payout for the mistakes Ficano and his buddies made ,why no one is in jail for this is beyond me? This is their mistake make them figure it out.In the mean time all Wayne County taxpayers pay.
Wayne county should take a fair deal .

**SpartanDawg** · July-08-16, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitdave

First off, I would like to see the pro soccer stadium built on the Gratiot site, it just makes more sense with hotels and shopping close by, but if the county is hell bent on having their jail on Gratiot , let them built it to the insane cost and see how that goes over.
If Dan and Gore build the stadium out on mound, downtown and the city would lose out, there aren't any hotels or restaurants out there needed for something like a sports stadium.
If you build the jail out on mound it would help that area with new restaurants for the workers and visitors.
The county is looking for a payout for the mistakes Ficano and his buddies made ,why no one is in jail for this is beyond me? This is their mistake make them figure it out.In the mean time all Wayne County taxpayers pay.
Wayne county should take a fair deal .

the stadium would never get build on mound. MLS stipulated that they want the stadium downtown only. that was a HUGE reason they were so excited to come here. if jail goes up on that site the only way MLS comes to detroit is the stadium being built either on the riverfront nearby or somewhere in midtown. MAYYYBE new center at the furthest out

**dmike76** · July-08-16, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitdave

First off, I would like to see the pro soccer stadium built on the Gratiot site, it just makes more sense with hotels and shopping close by, but if the county is hell bent on having their jail on Gratiot , let them built it to the insane cost and see how that goes over.
If Dan and Gore build the stadium out on mound, downtown and the city would lose out, there aren't any hotels or restaurants out there needed for something like a sports stadium.
If you build the jail out on mound it would help that area with new restaurants for the workers and visitors.
The county is looking for a payout for the mistakes Ficano and his buddies made ,why no one is in jail for this is beyond me? This is their mistake make them figure it out.In the mean time all Wayne County taxpayers pay.
Wayne county should take a fair deal .

I'd prefer to see the stadium built near another neighborhood and away from downtown, then maybe that neighborhood would see more investment. Just as an example, maybe somewhere near Mexicantown/Southwest[[disclaimer: I have no idea if there's any viable space in that area). It is possible that some of the locals would attend since soccer is popular in Mexico, plus you're not far from some of the millenials moving into the Corktown area that would buy tickets also. And it's close to the bridge so people from Windsor may shoot over there too.