Pro soccer coming to Detroit?

[emu steve]

...

BTW, my top 4 sites in order:

1). "Fail Jail" site,

2). Brewster, home of the Detroit , aka 'Brew Crew'

3). 3rd and Temple,

4). Behind the Fox [[I don't like a 20k stadium behind buildings that are 10 or more stories high).

********
1). Would require a ton of money,

2). Would require approval of HUD, presumably.

3). No ones first choice, but doable if folks are in the "Let's make a deal" mode.

4). Would have been ideal for the arena, and the arena would not have to be so much below grade. Aesthetically awful, I'd think for a soccer stadium. Stadiums which seat 20 - 30k [[30k is typical for MAC football, e.g., CMU, WMU, EMU, etc.) and those are best in areas without tall buildings. The sun rises over the east stands and sets over the west. It doesn't have a 'walled in' feel to it.

5). ???????????

BTW, another requirement: stadiums like football, soccer, etc. should run north - south because of that thing called "the sun." Don't want players looking into the sun. Some sites would not work if the parcel doesn't fit a north/south playing field.

[brandomundo]

This is a pipe dream I know, but it would really work well right on top of the current I375 interchange. This works with the I375 boulevard plan, caps part of I75, and leaves the brewster site alone. Getting all of the different agencies involved would be a nightmare but one can dream.

Please excuse the crude cut and paste job below.

[mikeg19]

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/20...bert/83593500/

$1 Billion investment for stadium.

Renderings at the link.

Holy crap if that were to go down.

[dtowncitylover]

Major League Lacrosse too!

[corktownyuppie]

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/20...bert/83593500/

$1 Billion investment for stadium.

Renderings at the link.

Holy crap if that were to go down.

I was skeptical that Wayne County would change their mind, but holy jeez. $1B in development is really, really hard to walk away from. Anyone familiar enough with the Fail Jail financials? How much will it cost to finish at the current location? How much would it cost to start over at a new location? Would be curious about feasibility.

[mikeg19]

I was skeptical that Wayne County would change their mind, but holy jeez. $1B in development is really, really walk away from. Anyone familiar enough with the Fail Jail financials? How much will it cost to finish at the current location? How much would it cost to start over at a new location? Would be curious about feasibility.

It'd hard to see them saying "thanks but no thanks, we wanna finish the jail. Take the $1b and do it somewhere else".

[emu steve]

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/20...bert/83593500/

$1 Billion investment for stadium.

Renderings at the link.

Holy crap if that were to go down.

Wow. I was drinking 90 proof decaf coffee when I suggested at DG tell Wayne County: 1B in development, including the stadium, if you'll sell me that land...

I thought of a [[h)uuuuuuuuuge number, 1B, for effect and tossed it out.

I didn't expect DG to actually propose something like it.

Moral to the story: When we are talking DG, Gores, etc. hundreds of millions are just numbers on paper to them... Think of what Steve Ballmer did with the L.A. Clippers, paid an absurd sum for the team...

[Junjie]

This is a pipe dream I know, but it would really work well right on top of the current I375 interchange. This works with the I375 boulevard plan, caps part of I75, and leaves the brewster site alone. Getting all of the different agencies involved would be a nightmare but one can dream.

Please excuse the crude cut and paste job below.

Be still my heart.

While obviously the just-announced "vision" doesn't match this image, Gilbert did specifically call out the I375 boulevard replacement [["raising 375 to grade") as something that was part of the overall importance of this site and a factor in his plans. Sadly last we knew it was stalled indefinitely with MDOT.

[emu steve]

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/spo...team/83597528/

The article indicates DG offered 50M for the site in 2013. That would be completely inadequate to cover the county's losses there. 50M is chump change to DG.

Now, what would be a fair number? 200M????????

I would not bet that 'no' means 'no', here. I think the county listens but the 'price has to be right.'

The mayor's role should be interesting. Where does he come down?

[123456789]

Between Ilitch trying to find investors for hotel, retail, and residential projects over 60 acres and this, I am very skeptical that there are enough people and $$ interested in investing in Detroit. I'd be shocked if both projects incur the development to be promised in the next 10 years. Hope I'm wrong but I don't see it..

[401don]

I would rather watch paint dry than watch soccer but I can tell you it draws the 18-34 group here in Toronto to a degree that really shocked me. Of course, Toronto has a very multi-cultural demographic, which helps. The MLS schedule, which some of you may not know, is 34 games, twice that of the NFL. The season runs early March to late October so fans have to be hardy.

[Junjie]

Between Ilitch trying to find investors for hotel, retail, and residential projects over 60 acres and this, I am very skeptical that there are enough people and $$ interested in investing in Detroit. I'd be shocked if both projects incur the development to be promised in the next 10 years. Hope I'm wrong but I don't see it..

At risk of turning this into Yet Another Ilitch Thread, I would expect to see significantly less than 60 acres of development from the District Detroit project. On the other hand, while I think today's announcement is mainly about putting pressure on Wayne County to do a deal on the jail site, an additional office tower, residential tower, and hotel from Gilbert don't seem unrealistic.

[Downriviera]

I think we need more than 20,000 seats. Seattle drawing over 44,000 and Orlando over 32,000. We can do better. We'll draw from Ontario, Toledo, Ann Arbor. Can't wait.

[123456789]

At risk of turning this into Yet Another Ilitch Thread, I would expect to see significantly less than 60 acres of development from the District Detroit project. On the other hand, while I think today's announcement is mainly about putting pressure on Wayne County to do a deal on the jail site, an additional office tower, residential tower, and hotel from Gilbert don't seem unrealistic.

Right. I'm just wondering aloud how this development might draw away outside investors from Ilitch's plans for development. Is there enough outside money to go around for both projects? I'm skeptical

[Junjie]

Right. I'm just wondering aloud how this development might draw away outside investors from Ilitch's plans for development. Is there enough outside money to go around for both projects? I'm skeptical

Yeah, fair enough. Have to assume they're talking to each other.

I think overall we might be surprised by the amount of latent residential demand, because each project makes the area increasingly desirable and attractive. But in terms of attracting for instance major business tenants who can occupy five levels of a new office tower - yeah, no idea how much is out there to fill in all the proposed space. I can only assume they are lining things up, not just hoping to build on spec.

[emu steve]

Yeah, fair enough. Have to assume they're talking to each other.

I think overall we might be surprised by the amount of latent residential demand, because each project makes the area increasingly desirable and attractive. But in terms of attracting for instance major business tenants who can occupy five levels of a new office tower - yeah, no idea how much is out there to fill in all the proposed space. I can only assume they are lining things up, not just hoping to build on spec.

OTOH, what might be the problem with a new office tower, namely, poaching.

What if DG gets someone to move out of their downtown digs and move to his new tower, resulting in vacant space at the other building.

Compare that to residential. I don't think anyone is making the case that Detroiters are moving en mass from one part of Detroit to downtown or Midtown. I assume most of the new residents in downtown or Midtown are new to the city.

[tkelly1986]

Yeah, fair enough. Have to assume they're talking to each other.

I think overall we might be surprised by the amount of latent residential demand, because each project makes the area increasingly desirable and attractive. But in terms of attracting for instance major business tenants who can occupy five levels of a new office tower - yeah, no idea how much is out there to fill in all the proposed space. I can only assume they are lining things up, not just hoping to build on spec.

The question of WHO could occupy the office towers is valid, but metro Detroit seems to have a large number of companies that are very disjointed, with 5 or 6 offices in the burbs, ala Ally Financial, that could benefit from consolidation. The forum has discussed them before, and there is still hope that others will follow Ally in their decisions. Especially those looking to attract millennials with little desire to work in Troy, with an office that overlooks "Oakland County's main street! I-75).

[Jason]

I know that the renderings are just conceptual. But with the presumption that when the the actual buildings are designed it gets better instead of worse I think this would be great and I wouldn't mind the existing buildings being demolished.

The plaza is necessary for the large groups from sports events but it would also be great to have a plaza associated with greektown. I can also imagine this plaza, if it has retail, to be the type of vibrant urban shopping district that has a lot of neon signs, and continue the hustle and bustle vibrancy of greektown. The plaza has the potential to be one of the best urban spaces in the city.

The towers and their arrangement is a good use of the site. The towers in the renderings are clearly very generic "concepts" but have the potential to be more after actually being designed. And while the roof gardens in the renderings are implausibly intensive, I'm a big fan of making good use of roofs [[you have to build them anyway) and I think there are plenty of examples in other cities around the world of multi-level urbanism.

I also think this does a good job of making it more than what it actually is. The project is really just a field of grass, seating, and parking garages. But adding these other elements makes it much more substantial.

[swingline]

Much of the discussion on local media and social media about a soccer and mixed use development at the "fail jail site" that has exploded in the last 24 hours is kind of misleading. It's misleading in that it fails to describe the true physical size of what Bedrock/Platinum Equity is proposing. The proposal is not just limited to the jail site. The project also includes the site of the Wayne County Juvenile Detention Center [[built only around 10 years ago), the existing Wayne County Jail and the Frank Murphy Hall of Justice. The total size of the targeted site is probably twice the size of the current fail jail site. Three fully functioning county government facilities exist at this location. The relocation of these institutions to newly built facilities would be an unprecedented undertaking by the county. It's not just a matter of building a jail somewhere else and putting a soccer stadium on the fail jail site.

That being said, Mr. Gilbert is right that a transformative opportunity exists right now at this important gateway site. If the proposal truly includes residential, office and hotel uses that are guaranteed to get built, the county owes it to its citizens and the entire region to thoroughly vet the ideas.

From an architecture standpoint the demolition of the Frank Murphy Hall of Justice would be a significant loss. It is an outstanding example of the mostly unloved Brutalism style. But if its loss facilitated Detroit's gain of a world class mixed use $1billion project, on balance it would be worth it.

[ABetterDetroit]

Much of the discussion on local media and social media about a soccer and mixed use development at the "fail jail site" that has exploded in the last 24 hours is kind of misleading. It's misleading in that it fails to describe the true physical size of what Bedrock/Platinum Equity is proposing. The proposal is not just limited to the jail site. The project also includes the site of the Wayne County Juvenile Detention Center [[built only around 10 years ago), the existing Wayne County Jail and the Frank Murphy Hall of Justice. The total size of the targeted site is probably twice the size of the current fail jail site. Three fully functioning county government facilities exist at this location. The relocation of these institutions to newly built facilities would be an unprecedented undertaking by the county. It's not just a matter of building a jail somewhere else and putting a soccer stadium on the fail jail site.

That being said, Mr. Gilbert is right that a transformative opportunity exists right now at this important gateway site. If the proposal truly includes residential, office and hotel uses that are guaranteed to get built, the county owes it to its citizens and the entire region to thoroughly vet the ideas.

From an architecture standpoint the demolition of the Frank Murphy Hall of Justice would be a significant loss. It is an outstanding example of the mostly unloved Brutalism style. But if its loss facilitated Detroit's gain of a world class mixed use $1billion project, on balance it would be worth it.

For this site to work for MLS it must include the Juvenile Detention Center and the Frank Murphy hall of Justice. Anything less would be attempting to shoehorn in the soccer specific stadium which then would result in What would they do when expansion is necessary? Move it? Let's not do that again. The potential for growth in this sport is obvious, it already is becoming very popular with the under thirty crowd and in twenty years expect it to compete for players with the rest of the world with internet/TV contracts to rival NFL and MLB. I can't really think of a athletic sport that exists in the world where the American entertainment dollar doesn't dominate. Why would we expect different now that this one is catching fire?

Gilbert and Gores have put Wayne County and The City of Detroit at the crossroad today. Do they want to be a part of a future with a major development on prime downtown real estate or would they rather follow through with the plans of a corrupt politician and build a jail?

[MSUguy]

For this site to work for MLS it must include the Juvenile Detention Center and the Frank Murphy hall of Justice. Anything less would be attempting to shoehorn in the soccer specific stadium which then would result in What would they do when expansion is necessary? Move it? Let's not do that again. The potential for growth in this sport is obvious, it already is becoming very popular with the under thirty crowd and in twenty years expect it to compete for players with the rest of the world with internet/TV contracts to rival NFL and MLB. I can't really think of a athletic sport that exists in the world where the American entertainment dollar doesn't dominate. Why would we expect different now that this one is catching fire?

Gilbert and Gores have put Wayne County and The City of Detroit at the crossroad today. Do they want to be a part of a future with a major development on prime downtown real estate or would they rather follow through with the plans of a corrupt politician and build a jail?

I agree they need all that property. But the simple fact is Gilbert and Gores need to make it possible for the county' to replace those buildings. The county shouldn't be sagging us with more cost to make these guys rich. If it can be done for equal or less cost than the finishing the jail then the county should bite.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I agree they need all that property. But the simple fact is Gilbert and Gores need to make it possible for the county' to replace those buildings. The county shouldn't be sagging us with more cost to make these guys rich. If it can be done for equal or less cost than the finishing the jail then the county should bite.

Agreed, and I think this is Warren Evans' position. Any deal needs to work financially for the county. Gilbert's original proposal of $50M I think was presupposed on the idea that the county would abandon the jail project altogether [[a real possibility considering the shady and shaky financials under Ficano). Now Evans has helped get the county on a little stronger footing, but the county still needs more and modern jail capacity. So the county needs to assess the more economical way of getting a jail done.

There are a couple of ways the a deal can be struck to make sense for both parties. First and most obvious, the SuperGTeam could just give the county the money it needs to move & build the various needed facilities at the Mound Rd complex. But I'd prefer to let SuperGTeam actually build the facilities at Mound Rd: it would help ensure costs stay under control and that the project got finished on time. The county would move into the new spaces when ready, and then hand over the title to the abandoned complex for $1. Bonus for the city & county: spaces formerly home to government buildings would return to tax rolls.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

If the Fail Jail site becomes the place we build a soccer stadium, I would name it in honor of the former intended purpose and dub the structure The Penalty Box.

[gumby]

Anyone who would lament the loss of The Frank Murphey Hall of Justice needs to have their head examined.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Anyone who would lament the loss of The Frank Murphey Hall of Justice needs to have their head examined.

As a kid, my Mom worked in there for a few years, after having worked at the City-County building. FMHOJ was even less attractive on the inside. I did love the courtrooms [[and offices) in the C-CB, though.