Pro soccer coming to Detroit?

[dtowncitylover]

The Greyhound terminal is much busier and more important to Detroit than the People Mover or the Woodward Trolley, yet the same people who think the trolley is the Second Coming would have no problem relocating the bus terminal for an empty lawn to play a few soccer matches.

Of course there are many differing opinions, but, speaking very broadly, DYes commentators are hopelessly fixated on sports venues as urban revitalization tools [[despite every economist on earth disagreeing) and are absolutely clueless when it comes to transit and mobility

On the one hand would give their first-born to see the Quicken trolley completed, on the other hand dismissing existing transit, probably because it mostly serves poor black people aka people who actually need transit, rather than 20-something pseudo-hipsters from Novi who want to ride a train to the bars.

There is no MLS team coming to Detroit anytime soon, MLS doesn't play many matches, doesn't generate big crowds, tends to play in suburban venues, and sports venues don't do squat in terms of economic growth or urban revitalization.

If your downtown is so worthless that you would replace existing urbanity with a grass field unused 300+ days a year, then your downtown planning is an abject failure. MLS teams play 17 home games a year.

Considering the streetcar isn't even operational yet [[though we know for a fact many developments have come because transit is improving) you really can't say the Greyhound Station has been more important to the city that moving it to another location [[perhaps one in downtown?) would prove detrimental to anyone or anything.

I don't dismiss any transit. Everything has their use and function and buses, trams, light rail, metros, paratransit, cars, and bikes all have their need and place in an urban environment. You say many of us don't have a clue about urban issues and transit and then you either never come up or you do what you did above and say the "trolley" is going to be some hipster choo-choo which doesn't advance anything in a discussion. The M-1 Rail is the building block back to an urbanity that creates density, walkability, and cohesiveness. You just keep saying our ideas are "awful". They're just ideas, dude. You want to express some of your own, go ahead. We would love to hear them but for the most part they're just tired negative comments.

I'd rather want a stadium that supports a major league team, hosts other soccer events, and private parties or weddings like many do than an abandoned skyscraper that has no function because it's cut off from the rest of downtown.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Bham1982, I have a few reactions to your post. Before reading further, I recommend a deep breath and, perhaps, an Alka-Seltzer.

1: No proposal that I have read on this board has called for the elimination or reduction of Greyhound bus service in Detroit. There was, of course, a stated thought that the current location of the Greyhound terminal, or it's general vicinity, might be a good home for a future MLS stadium.

2: Greyhound service is not comparable to the People Mover, local bus service, light rail or any other local transit service. Why, because it is inter-city transit, not a local commuter service. Different riders with different travel needs. Of course, it is also a private business, not a government service. It can, and likely would, relocate somewhere else in the city to continue to meet the needs of it's paying customers.

3: Race is not a direct issue or motivating factor for most people on transit or pro soccer issues. I do not know the race of most people that post on this board. I am white [[which could have been inferred by my previous posts about being an Irish-American), but I don't know if you or ABetterDetroit or dtcitylover are black, white or something else. Nor does it matter. Their posts might be brilliant or stupid in one's opinion, but that opinion is not driven by my perception of the commenter's race. And as long as we are talking race: the QLine will likely be used substantially by Wayne State students, especially those choosing to work downtown. A solid majority of WSU students are black.

4: Although many economists do agree that stadia are not a panacea for urban ills, and in many cases are a waste of public money, the case is not closed on the matter. Examining public infrastructure spending as it pertains to large scale sports venues ignores that any significant development often requires substantial government expense. That includes non-sports developments. Much criticism of sports projects are actually criticisms of taxpayer money used to build them. As of yet, there is no Detroit MLS franchise, stadium or finance plan spending a plan to criticize. Would the increase in economic activity generated by a stadium project justify the expenses to any and all parties? We can only vaguely speculate at this point. But I would suggest that academic economists notwithstanding, sports venues can sure be a lure to a neighborhood.

5: There are no current plans or proposals for train service to and from Novi. I am not sure how intoxicated Novians intend to use a train to get home. I would be interested in that commute's specifics, if you could elaborate.

6: An MLS stadium can be used substantially more than 17 times a year. Most MLS arenas also host things such as concerts, professional wrestling & boxing, lacrosse, rugby and outdoor events including religious services or commencements. Additionally, there would certainly be pre and possibly post season soccer. They can host high school and college soccer tournaments, and occassional national team or international exhibition games. Will a stadium be dark a majority of days? Yes. Would it be dark 348 days a year? Certainly not. I like the idea of building ice rinks on the field December through February and having both community open skating and amateur hockey league and high school games during the winter.

7: When and if there is a specific proposal to bring MLS to Detroit, I look forward to your specific opinions on that plan. There are certainly many potential problems with getting a franchise, financing and building a stadium. Hopefully the powers that be will thoroughly vet and analyze every proposal.

[Junjie]

The Greyhound terminal is much busier and more important to Detroit than the People Mover or the Woodward Trolley, yet the same people who think the trolley is the Second Coming would have no problem relocating the bus terminal for an empty lawn to play a few soccer matches.

Of course there are many differing opinions, but, speaking very broadly, DYes commentators are hopelessly fixated on sports venues as urban revitalization tools [[despite every economist on earth disagreeing) and are absolutely clueless when it comes to transit and mobility

On the one hand would give their first-born to see the Quicken trolley completed, on the other hand dismissing existing transit, probably because it mostly serves poor black people aka people who actually need transit, rather than 20-something pseudo-hipsters from Novi who want to ride a train to the bars.

There is no MLS team coming to Detroit anytime soon, MLS doesn't play many matches, doesn't generate big crowds, tends to play in suburban venues, and sports venues don't do squat in terms of economic growth or urban revitalization.

If your downtown is so worthless that you would replace existing urbanity with a grass field unused 300+ days a year, then your downtown planning is an abject failure. MLS teams play 17 home games a year.

Some good points though I don't agree with the broad attacks on other posters... as far as soccer goes, I agree with you that putting another stadium downtown would not be a net positive. I think it is alluring to some because events do bring visible crowds that loom large in the mind while we tend to ignore all the days that nobody's there, and with one project we can fill up a number of empty blocks. But the cost of having an empty venue at least 325 days a year is just not worth it.

I maintain that something like the Verizon Center is the model if you want a downtown sporting venue - basketball and hockey in one facility, plus it's the standard concert/event location for the area. And still that probably leaves it empty about 200 nights per year. Baseball is borderline and football / soccer have no business taking up four downtown blocks each with a completely empty stadium nearly every day of the year. If we think of the great old urban stadiums that people love, none of them are right downtown - Wrigley, Fenway, Yankee Stadium, [[Tiger Stadium). They are transit-accessible and near the urban core but definitely not downtown.

I know MLS prefers dedicated outdoor facilities, but Ford Field is intimate for an NFL stadium. Can it support a soccer configuration? That would be a win-win in terms of saving money and creating more active dates for Ford Field. But I'm sure MLS wouldn't want to "settle" for such an arrangement. If someone must build a stadium, let it be A. not funded by taxpayers and B. perhaps on the edge of Corktown, Eastern Market, New Center or similar.

[emu steve]

This is one reason I think the Ilitches could be a potential owner. They could use quite a bit of land they already own. Additionally, if they want to have a stand-alone sports division [[perhaps spun off into its own company) adding a third team could be a good idea. However, with the quickly escalating prices of property anywhere near downtown/midtown, a potential owner really needs to be working now to assemble the full amount of land that they need. It would be cost prohibitive a few years down the road.

I agree with your thoughts.

As far as land is concerned:

In some cities land is at a real premium. Think Manhattan. There is gold in that land.

In some cities, in some locations, building on unused land is good simply to utilize underutilized land [[w/out the new arena, could one imagine that area being virtually nothing more than a very large parking area for possibly decade a decade or two).

As far as the area say around 3rd/Temple/Ledyard and going to Grand River, I don't see a big land rush to develop it for say 10 - 20 years.

A new soccer stadium there would 'revitalize' immediately an area which would take forever to revitalize.

Is there a need for hundreds of housing units there if hundreds and hundred of housing units will be built in Brush Park?

Wouldn't Brush Park be the primary area for new housing in southern Midtown? Wouldn't "West of Cass" be a secondary area [[for new housing)?

Really, do we want to wait 10 - 20 years for development to hit that 3rd/Temple area [[where the Viking Motel, etc. is)??

Let's 'fast forward' to 2019: The arena is up. DG has a MLS franchise in his back pocket for the asking. Work begins on a soccer stadium by 3rd/Temple/Ledyard.

Someone [[Ilitches) have control of a lot of land on Cass [[west side) between Temple and Ledyard [[I think). Something happens there.

Ilitches are responsible for cleaning up Cass Park.

All of a sudden a lot of energy is shifting to the area bounded by Cass/Temple/Ledyard/Grand River, etc.

Woodward to Cass [[the arena area) is Phase I.

West of Cass becomes Phase II.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Junjie, I agree with emusteve on the point of unused/underutilized land. If a stadium could be built in an area not currently or about to do much, I think it's a net plus. Among other things it can lead to denser development in its vicinity, since there is less land to build on. Although fail jail is my preferred site [[an MLS stadium might be the only big enough thing to warrant someone to write a check to Wayne County to move the monstrosity), I think the substantially vacant land West of MotorCity Casino and North of 75 [[NorthCork?), between Rosa Parks and Trumbull would be a good site, too.

Ford Field absolutely can support soccer. I asked that exact question when taking the Ford Field tour. It isn't a perfect solution, but it would be a good place for a team to start IF IF IF MLS allowed a team to play indoors. It isn't perfect long term, of course. Although certainly the most intimate NFL venue, it is still huge by MLS standards. And although 25,000 people is a very respectable crowd [[and bigger than hockey or basketball crowds), it would look a little sad with 40,000 unused seats. I doubt we'd have Seattle Sounders sized crowds. I think the MLS will require a real plan to get a soccer specific stadium to win a franchise, even if the plan will take years to implement. MLS, in trying to make the Big 4 pro sports into the Big 5, does not want to appear to by playing in the shadow of an NFL team. They want soccer places to make soccer experiences for fans. Also, investing money in a stadium helps make sure the franchisee is in it for the long haul.

[emu steve]

Even if a soccer stadium is used say 25 - 30 times a year, just having an area, say Temple between 3rd and 5th cleared with a nice stadium, maybe a small plaza, AND, drum roll, STREETSCAPING on Temple [[currently not good) would really help that area, esp. with the hope that Cass Park is cleaned up as well as the adjacent block to the east.

To me, the improvement would be more than simply a 2-block stadium which will be lightly used.

It would solidify an area much bigger than the stadium, per se.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

You are correct. The area would look better 365 days per year. Plus. on some of those days, especially in summer, 25K people would visit.

[emu steve]

You are correct. The area would look better 365 days per year. Plus. on some of those days, especially in summer, 25K people would visit.

And the foot traffic would be nice.

Since there wouldn't be 'acres' of parking near the soccer stadium, attendees would probably park close to Cass Park [[say across from the Masonic Temple), in the new parking deck at Park/Fisher, etc.

Would be very different than a crowd which parks a block away from the stadium and enters/leaves immediately or a crowd taking the QLine to the venue.

Maybe get some beverages by Cass/Henry, etc. to make the experience more fun.

Everyone gets excited by 41 home games for the Pistons or Wings, but how about 25 for a soccer team? If they are all 20K attendees what's the difference???

[Bham1982]

Everyone gets excited by 41 home games for the Pistons or Wings, but how about 25 for a soccer team? If they are all 20K attendees what's the difference???

Not everyone. Some folks on DYes think you build urbanity by building sports stadia.

Economists and urban planners know this is nonsense, and that such uses generally displace urban vitality, which is why healthy cities try and keep such uses peripheral.

If you want a healthy core, you want foot traffic, activity nodes, and mobility options. You want transit terminals, not soccer fields, which belong in Novi.

[emu steve]

Not everyone. Some folks on DYes think you build urbanity by building sports stadia.

Economists and urban planners know this is nonsense, and that such uses generally displace urban vitality, which is why healthy cities try and keep such uses peripheral.

If you want a healthy core, you want foot traffic, activity nodes, and mobility options. You want transit terminals, not soccer fields, which belong in Novi.

A new forum: NoviYes?

As we've discussed, the trend decades ago was 'flight from the city, downtown' BUT NOW bringing them [['them' here can mean jobs, residents, sports, etc.) back to the downtown areas.

Detroit and D.C. are excellent examples of sports teams within the urban core.

I'll bet that the Redskins return to D.C., probably the RFK site, during my lifetime. RFK stadium should be demolished probably 2018 or 19 after D.C. United moves out in 2018.

I went to the groundbreaking yesterday for the new D.C. United stadium about 4 blocks from Nationals Park.

It is in a forlorn area of D.C. across S. Capitol in S.W. industrial area, cement and concrete work, salvage [[metal) company, etc. etc.

It is very separated from the new, booming S.W. riverfront on the OTHER SIDE of Fort McNair.

The area of S.W. D.C. bordering on the Washington Channel is very nice and now booming. The side of S.W. D.C. bordering on the Anacosta River is forlorn. Like two different worlds...

[Bham1982]

Detroit and D.C. are excellent examples of sports teams within the urban core.

Detroit, by global standards, has a dead urban core. Hardly "excellent".

DC has a thriving urban core, and it has absolutely nothing to do with "sports teams". The most thriving and desirable parts of DC are nowhere near any professional sports venue.

But if DYes became DCYes, I'm sure people here would advocate for tearing down Dupont Circle and replacing with a minor league soccer field, and leveling Georgetown for a football field. You know, to bring that "vitality" of empty lawns and bleachers and blank walls.

[emu steve]

Detroit, by global standards, has a dead urban core. Hardly "excellent".

DC has a thriving urban core, and it has absolutely nothing to do with "sports teams". The most thriving and desirable parts of DC are nowhere near any professional sports venue.

But if DYes became DCYes, I'm sure people here would advocate for tearing down Dupont Circle and replacing with a minor league soccer field, and leveling Georgetown for a football field. You know, to bring that "vitality" of empty lawns and bleachers and blank walls.

D.C. has brought the Caps and Wizards back from the beltway [[in Prince Georges County) to downtown.

Nationals are what one to 1.5 miles south of the Capitol.

The D.C. United will be 2 miles south of the Capitol.

Mystics [[WNBA) will play and the Wizards practice at the site for the former St. Elizabeth's hospital in Anacostia.

Redskins will come back in 10 years [[after their lease expires) also in Prince Georges County.

The 'plan' is hopefully build a new football stadium, maybe new arena, and housing and commercial establishment in a 'little city' at the old RFK site [[which is [h]uuuuuuuuuuuuge as Bernie would say).

D.C. is doing a SUPERB job of using sports facilities to foster development [[around Verizon Center, Nationals Park and now the forlorn S.W. D.C. Buzzards Point area).

[emu steve]

More Detroit-focused comment:

1). Detroit prevented the Wings leaving for the 'burbs.

2). Prevented the Tigers from leaving.

3). Brought back the Lions.

4). MAY [[question mark) bring back the Pistons.

5). MAY [[question mark) get a major league soccer franchise.

[dtowncitylover]

But if DYes became DCYes, I'm sure people here would advocate for tearing down Dupont Circle and replacing with a minor league soccer field, and leveling Georgetown for a football field. You know, to bring that "vitality" of empty lawns and bleachers and blank walls.

LOL Because Howard/Lodge Freeway/Sixth St. is exactly the same as DuPont Circle or Georgetown. You are full of it.

[ekleezy]

Dan Gilbert and Tom Gores on Twitter...

Hey @TomGores, you know what's great about sports? One moment you're rivals & the next day, you can be rooting for the same team…

You're right, @cavsdan. Let's “kick around” some ideas and try to make something happen.

[Junjie]

LOL Because Howard/Lodge Freeway/Sixth St. is exactly the same as DuPont Circle or Georgetown. You are full of it.

Yeah, I don't think anyone is advocating building a stadium over top of Campus Martius or anything....

I think this comes down a bit to short term vs. long term. Agreed with everyone here that, yes, of course a soccer stadium would be an improvement over the fail jail or empty lots like the Fox Theater gravel ocean. I guess the question is whether we think in the longer term, assuming a continuing upward trajectory for "greater downtown," such a core location is the best place for another sports venue given how much land is already devoted to three others in the area.

My personal feeling is it's not, and there are plenty of other empty places near the core [[but not right in it) that would benefit from a stadium without closing off the greater potential of sites in the middle of downtown.

[ekleezy]

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/20...roit/83546930/

Jail site is number 1 option. Other possibilities are riverfront or corktown area. Gores would likely lead the franchise and Gilbert would lead procuring of land and development of stadium.

[emu steve]

Also Detroit News article.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/spo...roit/83548276/

[ekleezy]

From DCFC

http://home.detcityfc.com/news_artic...rer_id=1533686

[tkelly1986]

What about the Brewster Projects site? That would give some additional room for youth fields as well.

[Junjie]

From DCFC

http://home.detcityfc.com/news_artic...rer_id=1533686

I hope they can work something out - not even sure what the range of possibilities is here, but it would be terrible to destroy DCFC in favor of a new pro team. You want the 3,000 committed DCFC people to be the core of your MLS fan base, not ticked off and disaffected from the Detroit MLS club for life.

Anyone have any insight on whether DCFC could effectively "become" the MLS team? Or would they not even want to? My completely uninformed guess is that they will try to keep building their own club/stadium/fanbase/culture in Hamtramck and hope they can offer an interesting experience that stands independently of MLS downtown. No idea if the Detroit soccer market could bear both a major and minor league team [[as cool as it would be to have a Vipers situation again...)

[ekleezy]

I've always had the impression that DCFC was hoping to continue to grow on their own until they're big enough to join MLS. I can't imagine what affect two billionaires and other investors would have on this though. If they end up teaming together, they'd definitely have the ability to effectively market DCFC and get a lot more support. Most people have no idea Detroit has a team and I'm sure there are a lot of people that would be interested in going to games if they were aware.

[MSUguy]

I agree with your thoughts.


As far as the area say around 3rd/Temple/Ledyard and going to Grand River, I don't see a big land rush to develop it for say 10 - 20 years.

A new soccer stadium there would 'revitalize' immediately an area which would take forever to revitalize.



Wait 10 - 20 years for development to hit that 3rd/Temple area [[where the Viking Motel, etc. is)??

Let's 'fast forward' to 2019: The arena is up. DG has a MLS franchise in his back pocket for the asking. Work begins on a soccer stadium by 3rd/Temple/Ledyard.


.

You think property that is only a couple of blocks away from the new arena and has some of highest potential for mixed-used development in the city, that we should put a stadium there? The idea that there won't be development interest on property that is only a couple of blocks away, not miles, for a decade or more is silly.


First, before we get giddy about this we need to acknowledge just plopping a stadium down won't revitalize a thing. There will need to some mixed used elements to make this truly work. Secondly, putting the stadium downtown or midtown is bad idea theses two neighborhood are well on their way back this should used as chance be build up nearby areas. The areas around Eastern Market or Woodbridge come to mind. You have more fair amount of vacant land nearby, but some very strong elements to build off of. Think about what a smaller scale version of the district around Grand River/MLK or really anywhere between the Lodge and Forest would do for the area.

[emu steve]

Sorry, I think it will take 10 or more years for interest to develop around say 4th and Temple.

Detroit has so much vacant land even in Midtown that it would take a near population explosion to cause a 'run' on land in Brush Park, Cass Park, Midtown, etc. etc.

There are still many, many existing buildings in Midtown which would probably need to be rehabbed before someone is going to build NEW housing in that area.

And I still maintain that the prime site for new housing is Brush Park, not out by 4th and Temple.

I also maintain that putting a soccer stadium in the middle of say Woodbridge wouldn't do much.

All of that said, it could end up on the riverfront...

[Mackinaw]

I am partial to the Brewster site as it is a massive dead-end, next to multiple interstates, and already a superblock. It would bring at least occasional life there and buttress the rapid infill of the rest of the more livable parts of Brush Park. Eastern Market and Downtown would be excellent pre-game party zones. And this development could and should include adjacent community athletic fields and apartments, which would make it utilized 365 days a year.

This blurb from the current DNews article is nuts [[I mean seriously, who is writing this? A stadium on the Monroe Block????):

Possible locations
The billionaire Gilbert, through various entities, rivals General Motors as the largest private land owner in downtown Detroit. His Bedrock Detroit real estate firm controls more than 90 properties, the vast majority downtown, that amounts to 14 million square feet of space.
A Gilbert-affiliated entity holds development rights for a pair of two-acre downtown sites owned by the city. Both sites are empty or virtually empty. Both are prime locations amid all the new restaurants, restored historic skyscrapers and rejuvenated public spaces like Campus Martius Park. Development rights essentially means the city is allowing Gilbert to figure out what to do with the property.
There is no current public plan for the site called the Monroe Block, which is between Campus Martius Park and Greektown, which is home to the casino-hotel owned by Gilbert. The southwest edge of Monroe Block is across the street from the former Compuware building, now called One Campus Martius. Gilbert and Quicken Loans Inc. executives have their offices in the building.
The borders of Monroe Block are Monroe Avenue to the west, Bates Street to the east, Farmer Street to the south and Randolph Street to the north.
The other empty site controlled by Gilbert is the site of the former Hudson’s department store on Woodward Avenue. It’s bordered by Woodward to the west, Farmer Street to the east, East Grand River to the north and Gratiot Avenue to the south. Preliminary plans are known for that site and it doesn’t include a stadium. Early designs released last year show a swooping glass-and-metal structure that looks like nothing in Detroit now. The space will have 250 residential units, 225,000 square feet of mixed-use commercial or retail space, as well as a “programmed civic space,” according to a city document provided last year.