Pro soccer coming to Detroit?

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

As I have posted previously, the new stadium in D.C. being built [[last I checked the land was being cleared) costs about 150M NOT counting land, infrastructure costs, etc.

So reading this article, getting a franchise for Detroit won't be cheap. Someone needs deep pockets.

Say 150 - 175M for a stadium. ? for land. Say 150M franchise fee?

350M of 2016 dollars????

The cost, of course, is the kicker [[sorry about that). While MLS has shown some flexibility on the stadium issue, that is probably not operative here. There is no good option for a temporary facility. Comerica Park, I suppose, could double as a playing field, like RFK or Yankee Stadium. Ford Field would be great except for the issue of it being an indoor, turf field. I think every MLS team plays outdoors, and most [[I think) play on grass. But if a plan could be set up to eventually work towards an independent stadium, I don't think that would be an obstacle. The stadium could be paid for over time, assuming a responsible operator put forward and began work on a stadium plan. If I were the operator, I would probably try to use Comerica Park, and perhaps play a summer game or two at Spartan Stadium and Michigan Stadium, until a permanent stadium was built.

As for the franchise fee, that is a steep cost. I think there are a very limited number of potential Detroit or Michigan based candidates. Gilbert would be the most likely. The Ilitches would be a possibility, especially if the next generation would seek to fully split into separate pizza, casino, and sports/entertainment divisions. Tom Gores would have the money; I am not sure he has the interest. The Meijer or Devos families could do it [[although based in West Michigan). And there is an outside chance that a company not based in Detroit or Michigan could see it as an investment here, although I strongly favor having a local owner [[it helps to keep a team from moving).

The biggest challenge for an MLS franchise here is identifying who the franchisee would be; if one steps up, I think Detroit is a great choice. If one doesn't, I don't see any amount of study by MLS making a franchise here work.

Note: I think St. Louis is a very challenging city for MLS [[it is another market mentioned in the article). They lost an NFL team, although to be fair it was not for lack of a fan base. And in the same state, Kansas City is a real success story for the MLS with a beautiful new stadium. Here's to hoping!

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

ABettererDetroit, thanks for the post. I would LOVE for Detroit to get a team. There are some real challenges, but I think it's possible. Demographically, I think Detroit would support a team. The challenge is that we would need an owner* with deep pockets to fund a stadium and sustain early year operational losses. Complicating the stadium equation is the rapidly shrinking list of soccer-stadium size plots around downtown or midtown to build on. A few years ago, there were many candidates. Now, there are many fewer and the prices are much higher. Realistically, a downtown or near downtown seems imperative to me. Detroit's ethnically mixed and young urban professional population are exactly the people who would go to games.

My dream scenario is that Gilbert would plunk down the money for fail jail [[I bet it would cost him $100M upfront, plus a few staggered payments of $10-20M for the other area buildings like Frank Murphy HoJ as they were emptied out). He would then build a soccer specific stadium, which could also house concerts and events. And he could then build some hotel, retail, restaurants, etc on the fringes, and channel as many of those patrons as he wants to his casino. "Arsenal Detroit at Jack Casino Stadium". Not predicting that will happen, just dreaming.

*MLS has a different ownership structure than the other major sports leagues, and the "owners" really are licensed MLS franchise operators, not literally the owner in the same sense that they are in other sports. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_...ccer#Ownership

[ticktock]

Don't mean to put a damper on this idea, but Detroit is way down on the list of MLS expansion. It would take a miracle to add a team in the next 5-10 years. Minnesota, Atlanta, LA and Miami are getting a team for sure. Even Sacramento and San Antonio are ahead of us when it comes to having actual ownership and stadium plan. St. Louis after losing the Rams are also in the mix by trying to use part of the tax money for the proposed NFL stadium to go towards a new soccer stadium.

St. Louis at one time being considered the hub of US soccer

https://lafc.com/stadium/

http://www.newstpaulstadium.com/

http://www.builtforsacramento.com/

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...e68064887.html

http://www.sacurrent.com/Blogs/archi...on-to-28-teams

If it's gonna happen, first we would need a USL team [[which is division 3) and prove that we can support a pro soccer team. Detroit City FC has some good support, but they're basically an amateur team playing in the NPSL Great Lakes Conference against teams from Ann Arbor, Grand Rapids and Kalamazoo. Most of these teams play in high school football stadiums. Moving to another high school stadium in Hamtramck won't help their cause. Our only hope is to build an expandable 5,000 seat stadium for a USL team with ownership that has deep pockets and is truly committed to landing an MLS team down the road. DCFC ownership have already stated that they are not interest in that. They basically wanna continue as a semi-pro community team like FC United of Manchester, a club which was started by former Man United fans who were opposed to American ownership taking over their club.

[ABetterDetroit]

Don't mean to put a damper on this idea, but Detroit is way down on the list of MLS expansion. It would take a miracle to add a team in the next 5-10 years. Minnesota, Atlanta, LA and Miami are getting a team for sure. Even Sacramento and San Antonio are ahead of us when it comes to having actual ownership and stadium plan. St. Louis after losing the Rams are also in the mix by trying to use part of the tax money for the proposed NFL stadium to go towards a new soccer stadium.

St. Louis at one time being considered the hub of US soccer

https://lafc.com/stadium/

http://www.newstpaulstadium.com/

http://www.builtforsacramento.com/

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...e68064887.html

http://www.sacurrent.com/Blogs/archi...on-to-28-teams

If it's gonna happen, first we would need a USL team [[which is division 3) and prove that we can support a pro soccer team. Detroit City FC has some good support, but they're basically an amateur team playing in the NPSL Great Lakes Conference against teams from Ann Arbor, Grand Rapids and Kalamazoo. Most of these teams play in high school football stadiums. Moving to another high school stadium in Hamtramck won't help their cause. Our only hope is to build an expandable 5,000 seat stadium for a USL team with ownership that has deep pockets and is truly committed to landing an MLS team down the road. DCFC ownership have already stated that they are not interest in that. They basically wanna continue as a semi-pro community team like FC United of Manchester, a club which was started by former Man United fans who were opposed to American ownership taking over their club.

You know a lot more about this than me so I would like to ask a question. You named 7 cities that are already on the short list yet Don Garber said they will expand to 28 still leaving one open even if all the 7 land where they should. The question is since Detroit was also mentioned as needing to be looked at by the expansion committee is it possible that an individual or group that has a half billion dollars burning a hole in their pocket that is ready to jump in capable of courting the league on its own or does the minor league requirements have to come first? I am not singling out any one individual because I can count several off the top of my head that could afford it locally if they had the will.

[ticktock]

You know a lot more about this than me so I would like to ask a question. You named 7 cities that are already on the short list yet Don Garber said they will expand to 28 still leaving one open even if all the 7 land where they should. The question is since Detroit was also mentioned as needing to be looked at by the expansion committee is it possible that an individual or group that has a half billion dollars burning a hole in their pocket that is ready to jump in capable of courting the league on its own or does the minor league requirements have to come first? I am not singling out any one individual because I can count several off the top of my head that could afford it locally if they had the will.

I think the ultimate goal is to have 30 teams and Detroit is a city where MLS wants a team in. We are a top 10 TV market and do a great job supporting our sports teams. The biggest issue has always been the stadium. Back in the early MLS era, the only options were playing at the aging Silverdome or run-down Tiger Stadium. Ford Field being an indoor stadium didn't help the cause. If we had an open air NFL stadium, there's a good chance we would've gotten a team from the get-go.

No, there's no minor leagues requirement what so ever. If someone like Ilitch or Gilbert wants to finance a stadium and own a team, Detroit would get preferential treatment over Sacramento and San Antonio. A perfect scenario would be like it was mentioned, Gilbert getting a hold of the fail jail site and building a soccer specific stadium there. He could even hold a season-ticket drive to see if there's enough interest. Orlando did that and it has worked great for them. They are currently playing at the Citrus Bowl[[averaging 40,000 a game) while their new stadium is being built.

[mtburb]

We are a top 10 TV market

...did you get that from a 15-year-old-source? The latest rankings put us at 13th largest.

[Danny]

Detroit is not getting a pro soccer team, forget it!!! Four lousy Detroit teams is enough.

[Atticus]

Detroit is not getting a pro soccer team, forget it!!! Four lousy Detroit teams is enough.

If MLS wants to pay for a new soccer stadium, great... welcome to Detroit.

If some rich dude wants to spend a ton of their own money to build a soccer stadium in Detroit... I’d hope the mayor or other powers that be try to convince them to spend it in Detroit on X, Y, or Z instead [[other things Detroit could use more). If they won’t budge and still want to build a soccer stadium, great... welcome to Detroit.

But if we the tax payers have to pay for a new soccer stadium... forget it. Use Ford Field or have no MLS team here. Either works. Sorry, but we can spend public money on much better uses than a new soccer stadium.

[Danny]

If MLS wants to pay for a new soccer stadium, great... welcome to Detroit.

If some rich dude wants to spend a ton of their own money to build a soccer stadium in Detroit... I’d hope the mayor or other powers that be try to convince them to spend it in Detroit on X, Y, or Z instead [[other things Detroit could use more). If they won’t budge and still want to build a soccer stadium, great... welcome to Detroit.

But if we the tax payers have to pay for a new soccer stadium... forget it. Use Ford Field or have no MLS team here. Either works. Sorry, but we can spend public money on much better uses than a new soccer stadium.

Forget it. In order to start a new major league team expansion. Follow these steps.

1. Have lots of money about 250 million dollars or more.

2. Gather some folks that know how do to marketing, sales in sports. [[with money)

3. Gather sponsors [[with money)

4. Gather investors [[with money)

5. Gather athletes [[with money)

6. Let the City Council and its code investors know what your doing and let them vote on it. If they say no. Go back to repeat steps 1 to 6.

7. Spread the word that the new major league team is coming to your town.

8. Make sure all of your employees, athletes, sponsors investors, city developers, marketing agents are signing contracts and it must be iron clad.

9. Start find a site that the city improves and build a stadium

10. Bring your new audience in and make sure your major league team is winning games, losing less and winning national championship titles. Then you make more money.

[ABetterDetroit]

ABettererDetroit, thanks for the post. I would LOVE for Detroit to get a team. There are some real challenges, but I think it's possible. Demographically, I think Detroit would support a team. The challenge is that we would need an owner* with deep pockets to fund a stadium and sustain early year operational losses. Complicating the stadium equation is the rapidly shrinking list of soccer-stadium size plots around downtown or midtown to build on. A few years ago, there were many candidates. Now, there are many fewer and the prices are much higher. Realistically, a downtown or near downtown seems imperative to me. Detroit's ethnically mixed and young urban professional population are exactly the people who would go to games.

My dream scenario is that Gilbert would plunk down the money for fail jail [[I bet it would cost him $100M upfront, plus a few staggered payments of $10-20M for the other area buildings like Frank Murphy HoJ as they were emptied out). He would then build a soccer specific stadium, which could also house concerts and events. And he could then build some hotel, retail, restaurants, etc on the fringes, and channel as many of those patrons as he wants to his casino. "Arsenal Detroit at Jack Casino Stadium". Not predicting that will happen, just dreaming.

*MLS has a different ownership structure than the other major sports leagues, and the "owners" really are licensed MLS franchise operators, not literally the owner in the same sense that they are in other sports. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_...ccer#Ownership

I like your dream Mike. For a location for soccer specific stadium the fail jail site would be close to perfect although it would have to be shoehorned in some. I have another possible location -- 1200 sixth street. It is one parcel and larger so future expansion could be accommodated. The Executive Plaza Building would have to come down, however. Getting MDOT to move the greyhound terminal shouldn't be extremely difficult. Bonuses would be pro sports returning to Cork Town and the Howard street bridge would become a nice pedestrian bridge leading into downtown. Any other location ideas?

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I like your dream Mike. For a location for soccer specific stadium the fail jail site would be close to perfect although it would have to be shoehorned in some. I have another possible location -- 1200 sixth street. It is one parcel and larger so future expansion could be accommodated. The Executive Plaza Building would have to come down, however. Getting MDOT to move the greyhound terminal shouldn't be extremely difficult. Bonuses would be pro sports returning to Cork Town and the Howard street bridge would become a nice pedestrian bridge leading into downtown. Any other location ideas?

Using Google Earth as a guide, a soccer stadium the size of Kansas City's would just barely fit at the Fail Jail site itself, but rather easily if it took over the space just south housing the youth detention center and Carson school [[I think Gilbert's turned down bid included taking over those buildings, too, after operations relocated).

I originally hoped that the old Tiger Stadium site would house an MLS stadium, but since productive use is being made of it now, that is no longer an option. I'm gonna have to check out your proposal. Maybe I'll walk over there today to take a gander. Fun speculating, isn't it?

[Bham1982]

Getting MDOT to move the greyhound terminal shouldn't be extremely difficult.

Move the heavily used intercity bus terminal to accommodate a few minor league soccer games. Vitality and transit replaced with grass and bleachers.

As bad as the city's downtown decision making has been, I shudder to imagine if DYes planning ideas were actually implemented. The same people who profess to be pro-transit and pro-downtown want to kill one of the only transit-oriented activity centers?

[dtowncitylover]

Move the heavily used intercity bus terminal to accommodate a few minor league soccer games. Vitality and transit replaced with grass and bleachers.

As bad as the city's downtown decision making has been, I shudder to imagine if DYes planning ideas were actually implemented. The same people who profess to be pro-transit and pro-downtown want to kill one of the only transit-oriented activity centers?

And pray tell what are your planning ideas? This website exists as an exchange of ideas, perfect or imperfect.

A lot of things, both public [[the freeways, Wayne State) and private [[MGM Casino, DMC Complex) have destroyed the city's urbanity.

And technically, the place ABD mentions is in Corktown, along a Freeway and would go on top of an abandoned skyscraper that has no historical importance and across the street three large parking lots. Yeah we're really destroying Midtown Manhattan for a stadium...It's already a dead zone. I'm not even sure the Greyhound station would have to move.

And what's so minor-league about MAJOR LEAGUE SOCCER? I'm pretty sure that's all we're taking about. We're not taking about Detroit City FC.

[emu steve]

My only overarching comment is that the league should be careful NOT to overload the new franchisees with too much cost [[franchise fee) that they become unprofitable.

Best way for an American company to be financially unsuccessful is to have too much debt to service caused at startup or when they were acquired. Take a good company and pay too much for it with debt and then it becomes a troubled company. Read that everyday in the business sections.

Soccer might have a good future in the U.S., BUT if the revenue/expenditure P&L [[profit and loss) isn't good then a good thing can become a bad thing.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

For the league's sake, there is also the danger that they expand so quickly, locating in places that can't support a team, or picking owners too quickly. Plus, of course, there is the danger of diluting the talent. But I think they want the half dozen or more new teams so that when they start negotiating for media rights again in 7 years they can get a deal well into 10 figures.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

The fail jail site option does seem perfect in so many ways, except that the decision by the county on what to do with the jail will likely come shortly, in the next few months. MLS will be several years away from deciding if Detroit would be an expansion city. A would be franchisee [[come on, Dan, you know you want to) would have to jump up aggressively and soon to negotiate with the county over the jail site. Since they rejected his offer earlier of $50M, and there is no franchise currently awarded, I think the odds are low that he would shell out much more than that amount right now. But stranger things have happened. I think maybe we should give him Detroit River naming rights. "Quicken Loans River" or "Rocket River" maybe?

[emu steve]

Surprised no comment on this:

http://www.mlive.com/sports/2016/04/...didates_f.html

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Surprised no comment on this:

http://www.mlive.com/sports/2016/04/...didates_f.html

The MLive article is new, but the info in it is not. All Detroit needs is to identify who'd be the franchisee. I think everyone's first choice is DG. Come on, Dan!

[emu steve]

The MLive article is new, but the info in it is not. All Detroit needs is to identify who'd be the franchisee. I think everyone's first choice is DG. Come on, Dan!

The article implies Detroit is a top candidate. Previously I didn't not think it was a 'top tier' candidate...

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Good point, emu steve. I think MLS is doing a good job of managing the league, and it seems they are following specific plans to grow the league's size, visibility, and marketing prowess. I think they have identified cities that are likely to both support a team, and offer a good opportunity to grow the sport and league. They also probably realize that if they have specific commitments to have new franchises in certain larger cities, especially ones with the right demographic profile for a sizable fan base, it will very much improve their bargaining position when it comes time to renew media rights.

[ABetterDetroit]

"MLS has had conversations with potential owners in Detroit, although they remain unidentified."

I still firmly believe that MLS is way past hoping that certain markets show interest. If Detroit keeps popping into the conversation there is a possible owner in negotiation that has the bucks. MLS will be a huge part of the sports landscape in the future, its growth rate is already fantastic.

http://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2016...austin-detroit

[emu steve]

Indeed, to a league, any league, having say 26, 28, 30 or 32 teams [[or whatever) and NOT have Detroit seems absurd.

When I think of MLB, NFL, NHL, NBA, etc. I think Detroit. Detroit was a pioneer in each league, esp. NHL.

To me Sacramento, San Antonio, etc. are 2nd priority to the larger metropolitan areas like Detroit.

I guess that having no ideal site for a stadium could be a problem.

I still maintain the best hope is somewhere in Midtown, perhaps west of Cass Tech where the Iitches own property and could sell their excess land there for a purpose they approve [[i.e., soccer stadium).

I think site assembly would work better there then a lot of other desirable locations, e.g., river front.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I still maintain the best hope is somewhere in Midtown, perhaps west of Cass Tech where the Iitches own property and could sell their excess land there for a purpose they approve [[i.e., soccer stadium).

This is one reason I think the Ilitches could be a potential owner. They could use quite a bit of land they already own. Additionally, if they want to have a stand-alone sports division [[perhaps spun off into its own company) adding a third team could be a good idea. However, with the quickly escalating prices of property anywhere near downtown/midtown, a potential owner really needs to be working now to assemble the full amount of land that they need. It would be cost prohibitive a few years down the road.

[emu steve]

This is one reason I think the Ilitches could be a potential owner. They could use quite a bit of land they already own. Additionally, if they want to have a stand-alone sports division [[perhaps spun off into its own company) adding a third team could be a good idea. However, with the quickly escalating prices of property anywhere near downtown/midtown, a potential owner really needs to be working now to assemble the full amount of land that they need. It would be cost prohibitive a few years down the road.

I agree with your thoughts.

As far as land is concerned:

In some cities land is at a real premium. Think Manhattan. There is gold in that land.

In some cities, in some locations, building on unused land is good simply to utilize underutilized land [[w/out the new arena, could one imagine that area being virtually nothing more than a very large parking area for possibly decade a decade or two).

As far as the area say around 3rd/Temple/Ledyard and going to Grand River, I don't see a big land rush to develop it for say 10 - 20 years.

A new soccer stadium there would 'revitalize' immediately an area which would take forever to revitalize.

Is there a need for hundreds of housing units there if hundreds and hundred of housing units will be built in Brush Park?

Wouldn't Brush Park be the primary area for new housing in southern Midtown? Wouldn't "West of Cass" be a secondary area [[for new housing)?

Really, do we want to wait 10 - 20 years for development to hit that 3rd/Temple area [[where the Viking Motel, etc. is)??

Let's 'fast forward' to 2019: The arena is up. DG has a MLS franchise in his back pocket for the asking. Work begins on a soccer stadium by 3rd/Temple/Ledyard.

Someone [[Ilitches) have control of a lot of land on Cass [[west side) between Temple and Ledyard [[I think). Something happens there.

Ilitches are responsible for cleaning up Cass Park.

All of a sudden a lot of energy is shifting to the area bounded by Cass/Temple/Ledyard/Grand River, etc.

Woodward to Cass [[the arena area) is Phase I.

West of Cass becomes Phase II.

[MSUguy]

I agree with your thoughts.


As far as the area say around 3rd/Temple/Ledyard and going to Grand River, I don't see a big land rush to develop it for say 10 - 20 years.

A new soccer stadium there would 'revitalize' immediately an area which would take forever to revitalize.



Wait 10 - 20 years for development to hit that 3rd/Temple area [[where the Viking Motel, etc. is)??

Let's 'fast forward' to 2019: The arena is up. DG has a MLS franchise in his back pocket for the asking. Work begins on a soccer stadium by 3rd/Temple/Ledyard.


.

You think property that is only a couple of blocks away from the new arena and has some of highest potential for mixed-used development in the city, that we should put a stadium there? The idea that there won't be development interest on property that is only a couple of blocks away, not miles, for a decade or more is silly.


First, before we get giddy about this we need to acknowledge just plopping a stadium down won't revitalize a thing. There will need to some mixed used elements to make this truly work. Secondly, putting the stadium downtown or midtown is bad idea theses two neighborhood are well on their way back this should used as chance be build up nearby areas. The areas around Eastern Market or Woodbridge come to mind. You have more fair amount of vacant land nearby, but some very strong elements to build off of. Think about what a smaller scale version of the district around Grand River/MLK or really anywhere between the Lodge and Forest would do for the area.