Pro soccer coming to Detroit?

**emu steve** · December-01-17, 12:50 PM

I know, I know, but the fail jail site is now available if there is a change of mind.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...own/108189704/

**SammyS** · December-01-17, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by emu steve

I know, I know, but the fail jail site is now available if there is a change of mind.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...own/108189704/

OK, I'm confused
I thought the sale/swap to Gilbert and co. was a done deal and at one stage will be a soccer stadium etc. Why is it only now decided that the failed jail site will not continue as a jail?

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · December-02-17, 12:03 AM

Sammy, since the summer the county has indicated a preference for Gilbert to acquire the jail site, provided the money & criminal justice logistics could be worked out. That was stated by Warren Evans, back in June IIRC. However, the county maintained that the Walsh Construction proposal to finish the jail was alive, should the Gilbert plans fail to get finalized. Now, the county is saying it would no longer be acting in good faith with regards to Walsh if it kept the option alive. The county is now entering a phase where it will definitely be moving forward with a new CJ complex. Essentially, the county has told the other suitor that she's gonna dance with the one that brought her.

**emu steve** · December-02-17, 06:50 AM

Yeah, yesterday's story was big news but got buried among other stories [[e.g., Flynn, tax bill, etc.).

Getting close to game, set, match for Gilbert on the jail site.

The fat lady is getting ready to sing.

**Smirnoff** · December-02-17, 04:17 PM

Anyone really believe enough fans will actually support another losing sports franchise.....how many remember the Detroit Lightning?

**southen** · December-02-17, 04:29 PM

You are going to compare an MLS team to an indoor soccer team from 1980? I see your lightning reference and raise you DCFC and if we want to compare indoor teams I remember going to Detroit Neon and Detroit Rockers games and they were always well attended.

**313WX** · December-02-17, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

Sammy, since the summer the county has indicated a preference for Gilbert to acquire the jail site, provided the money & criminal justice logistics could be worked out. That was stated by Warren Evans, back in June IIRC. However, the county maintained that the Walsh Construction proposal to finish the jail was alive, should the Gilbert plans fail to get finalized. Now, the county is saying it would no longer be acting in good faith with regards to Walsh if it kept the option alive. The county is now entering a phase where it will definitely be moving forward with a new CJ complex. Essentially, the county has told the other suitor that she's gonna dance with the one that brought her.

Basically, the County was posturing.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · December-02-17, 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

Basically, the County was posturing.

Agreed, but I do think that it was the responsible thing for the county to do, annoying though it may have been. The county needed to make sure both that it had its criminal justice needs met, and that the taxpayers got the best possible deal on property transactions. Warren Evans did that.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · December-02-17, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by Smirnoff

Anyone really believe enough fans will actually support another losing sports franchise.....how many remember the Detroit Lightning?

Negative much? Just to refresh the memory, one of our sports teams just concluded a quarter-century run in the post-season with 4 championships. Another went 4 straight years as division champs, winning 2 penants in the last decade. Another, with memories of championships past, if off to a strong start of the season, beating expectations without a major star. And then we have the Lions, who may not be contenders yet, but they are decidedly a better than .500 team.

As for potential for soccer success in Detroit, I think we will attract very strong crowds [[20,000+ per game). And yes, your skepticism notwithstanding, I really believe that. I look forward to the first time I can watch a day game at Comerica and then cross the street to see night game at Ford Field [[or the other way around).

**313WX** · December-06-17, 04:06 AM

Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

Agreed, but I do think that it was the responsible thing for the county to do, annoying though it may have been. The county needed to make sure both that it had its criminal justice needs met, and that the taxpayers got the best possible deal on property transactions. Warren Evans did that.

No disagreement here.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · December-06-17, 07:57 AM

Today is the day that they make their presentations in NYC to the expansion committee. I wonder who is doing the presenting. Arn Tellem? I wish DG would do it, because he can really spread enthusiasm. Anyway, best of luck to them. MLS owners meet late next week to decide, with an announcement[[s) the following week.

**masterblaster** · December-06-17, 08:00 AM

Detroit is not going to get this. It went to a front-runner to a also ran when the new stadium was dropped. Detroit was no-brainer - big market and a soccer specific stadium. With a whole bunch of other growing cities vying for the 4 expansion spots in 2020 and 2022, from Phoenix to St. Louis to Tampa, MLS can be picky.

The other 3 finalists - Nashville, Sacramento, and Cincinnati all have public funding approved for a soccer-specific stadium. In Nashville's case, $225 million in public funds have been approved for a stadium in their state fairgrounds.

**mikeg19** · December-06-17, 08:45 AM

I still think they will get a franchise, but maybe now the 2022 expansion. It's going to be too hard to turn down 3 billionaire pro sports owners in a league that is seeking mainstream credibility in the US and deep pockets.

**Zads07** · December-06-17, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by masterblaster

The other 3 finalists - Nashville, Sacramento, and Cincinnati all have public funding approved for a soccer-specific stadium. In Nashville's case, $225 million in public funds have been approved for a stadium in their state fairgrounds.

This is why Detroit should not get an MLS team and I happily take that. Cities need to stop ponying up money for stadiums, it's ridiculous. I'm glad the MLS bid moved from a soccer-specific stadium to Ford Field. It should save taxpayers loads of cash.

**emu steve** · December-06-17, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Zads07

This is why Detroit should not get an MLS team and I happily take that. Cities need to stop ponying up money for stadiums, it's ridiculous. I'm glad the MLS bid moved from a soccer-specific stadium to Ford Field. It should save taxpayers loads of cash.

Not sure. Each case is different. This one would be highly favorable to the city.

As the land would be owned by Gilbert, et. al. there is no cost to the city here.

The cost of a MLS stadium [[if there are no land costs) is less than 200M.

I don't see a big cost to the city. It is possible that Gilbert, et. al. might not ask for any money other than certain tax breaks.

MLS stadiums, and this one in particular, are much different than say football stadiums which are very, very expensive and poor deals for the local governments.

**Bham1982** · December-06-17, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by Zads07

This is why Detroit should not get an MLS team and I happily take that. Cities need to stop ponying up money for stadiums, it's ridiculous. I'm glad the MLS bid moved from a soccer-specific stadium to Ford Field. It should save taxpayers loads of cash.

This x1000.

And downtown benefits by not having another urbanity-destroying, space-wasting stadium. If we're gonna have a soccer team, at least use existing infrastructure and promise no taxpayer subsidies.

**Zads07** · December-06-17, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by emu steve

Not sure. Each case is different. This one would be highly favorable to the city.

As the land would be owned by Gilbert, et. al. there is no cost to the city here.

The cost of a MLS stadium [[if there are no land costs) is less than 200M.

I don't see a big cost to the city. It is possible that Gilbert, et. al. might not ask for any money other than certain tax breaks.

MLS stadiums, and this one in particular, are much different than say football stadiums which are very, very expensive and poor deals for the local governments.

So what are the benefits to having a soccer-specific stadium as opposed to using Ford Field?

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · December-06-17, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by Zads07

So what are the benefits to having a soccer-specific stadium as opposed to using Ford Field?

I should start off by saying that, in general, I think the bid's move to Ford Field was a beneficial one for the city. The Fail Jail site will potentially be a larger and more multi-faceted use than the stadium. And we should remember, since the county DID deem restarting Fail Jail was feasible, but for the Gilbert-Gores interest we would be getting the worst and most expensive use for the land: an ugly, under-sized, decade late and half-a-billion-over-budget jail.

But, that said, there are some things lost to not having a soccer stadium. First, playing outdoors and [[usually) on real grass is part of soccer. From kids to colleges to European pro teams, it's the norm and part of the experience. It's like Camden Yards vs the AstroDome. Sure, they both held baseball games, but one seemed natural and right, the other superimposed. Certain places are better for playing and watching than others. Also, a soccer specific stadium would have been a natural location to hold other soccer besides the MLS: high school and college tourneys, international exhibition games, women's soccer [[there have been on and off again women's soccer leagues), as well as exhibition rugby and lacrosse. Additionally, it would have been an outdoor venue more conducive to concerts than Comerica Park, and it would have had more available dates per season than CP.

That all being said, the Fail Jail site will bring more people to work or live or visit with any large scale things G-G put there than a stadium would have [[although the stadium was better than a jail). Also, as of announced plans for the cancelled stadium, there was no call for public financing or ownership of the stadium, so criticism of that was at best very premature. Anything G-G put there [[even had it been a stadium with the 3 high rises) would have been net tax generators for both Detroit and Wayne County.

What does all this mean for the soccer bid? Well, I still think we're going to get it this round. Not 100% sure, of course. But our selling points in all areas except the stadium are stronger than the 3 other cities, and I think the stadium situation is a lot less of a drawback than MLS or the sports cognoscenti want us to believe. Had that been a crucial element, we would not have made he round of 4. MLS would have left us in the round of 12 and given the hint: reconsider the stadium for next time 'round. They made an active decision not to do that.

Working against us:
1) Not a soccer specific stadium

Working for us:
1) Stadium done and ready to go [[soccer retrofit by all accounts would be relatively fast and inexpensive)
2) Ideal downtown location
3) Largest contending media market
4) Most well financed owners
5) All owners have significant pro-sports ownership experience
6) Booming downtown with an influx of soccer demographic residents and workers
7) Very significant soccer culture and support in Michigan and Metro Detroit
8) More corporate money [[in general) in Detroit than the other 3 cities
9) Huge potential marketing and advertising money, specifically, tied to 2 of our 3 owners' firms [[Quicken & Ford).
10) Existing MLS clubs playing in NFL facilities [[Atlanta, Seattle & New England) have higher-than-average MLS attendance.

Also, of 3 other contending cities, only 1 [[Sacramento) has a realistic chance of having a stadium complete for 2020. Thus, Detroit and Sacramento would be able to kick off the 2020 season in their permanent homes, with Cincinnati and Nashville better suited to 2022, when they could have finished parks [[assuming they won in the second round).

The stadium will be a consideration, and perhaps would hurt us a lot if we were competing against equally strong bids. But we aren't. Ours is better for: money, experience, market, marketing and readiness.

**Hypestyles** · December-06-17, 10:18 PM

we'll see what happens. what is the MLS season?

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · December-06-17, 10:29 PM

34 regular season games [[17 home), late spring through late fall.

**emu steve** · December-07-17, 06:10 AM

Okay: If Detroit doesn't get selected this go round then a soccer-specific stadium might come back on the drawing board for the next go round.

I still maintain this is NOT a decision about 2020 or 2022, but a judgement about 2030 or 40.

Mikey makes a good point about other uses for a soccer-specific stadium.

There are a number of events held at Comerica [[and Ford Field) which best should not be there. Playing soccer at Comerica during the baseball season not a good idea. Ditto for concerts.

I suspect they could do say 40 - 50 events per year.

That said, the money belongs to Gilbert et. al and it is their decision.

The hard part is how the city or county would own the stadium for property tax purposes if the stadium is going to be in the middle of private development.

I would like to see some college FB there. Say games between some local MAC schools, e.g., CMU and EMU. I could see a Toledo @ EMU game there.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · December-07-17, 07:38 AM

emusteve, while soccer at a baseball stadium is less than ideal, DC United shared RFK Stadium with the Nationals for years and NYCFC still shares Yankee Stadium. Both situations involve a removable pitcher's mound.

The biggest challenge now for Detroit if it wanted to build a soccer stadium now is: where to put it? If MLS were to say, "Detroit, you'll get a team when you have a stadium plan", we'd be hard pressed to find a good location. If not the fail jail site, then where else in greater downtown/midtown would there be a parcel big enough for it that doesn't have buildings or plans already? Behind the Fox/on Grand River? Maybe, but property issues prevented the Tigers and Red Wings from building there [[and that was when parcels went for a lot less than they would today). Besides, I think smaller projects will be creeping into that area now, not a large single one. Uniroyal site? Not near downtown, probably not the best use of space on the riverfront at the foot of Belle Isle. Plus, it creates no foot traffic there. Location, location, location is key for a stadium, and there is no ideal site.

And while a soccer stadium, if we had one, could certainly double for college football, I am not sure that would really work. The schools that have significant off-campus fan bases willing to travel would require a higher seating capacity than a soccer stadium would likely have. And although I would love to be proven wrong, I don't think a Toledo vs EMU football game would even draw 5,000 fans to Detroit, unless it were a bowl game.

**emu steve** · December-07-17, 09:40 AM

I wonder about summer concerts OUTDOORS, rather than indoors at LCA?
Say seating 15k.

As far as MAC FB, EMU doesn't draw well, even though student crowds are getting better.

I'd think an early season [[first half of Oct) CMU / Toledo game could draw say 15K. There are 'outreach' advantages for CMU and Toledo to play a game in Detroit. There are tons of CMU and TOL alums within a 50 mile drive of downtown.

P.S. Mikey, you are right about the Nats and D.C. United. They shared RFK Stadium for three years, 2005 - 7. 2008 Nats moved to their new park.

**Bham1982** · December-07-17, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

Not near downtown, probably not the best use of space on the riverfront at the foot of Belle Isle. Plus, it creates no foot traffic there. Location, location, location is key for a stadium, and there is no ideal site.

First, you want to put stadia where you don't care about foot traffic, since stadia deaden the urban environment. You should never build an arena where there's strong potential for urban vitality.

Second, if you honestly can't find a single parcel of land for a soccer stadium anywhere in Metro Detroit, you aren't looking very hard. I'm pretty sure we can come with a few acres basically anywhere. If there's one thing we have, it's an excess of underutilized land.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · December-07-17, 02:12 PM

Aside from disagreeing about the benefits* of game-generated foot traffic to bars, hotels, restaurants and casinos, Bham, I did not post that there was a lack of space in which to build a stadium. In keeping with my contention that it has ancillary benefits to the neighborhood, I think Detroit [[if we were to build a soccer stadium) would most benefit from having said stadium in the downtown/midtown area. In that core, there are few easily identified spaces fit for a stadium at this time. But if you contend that it really doesn't matter where you put it, you're right, there is no shortage of possible locations. Of course, this is all academic now, since a winning bid for us does not include a soccer stadium.

*I would say at least 30% of my income is derived of game-generated downtown patronage.