Pro soccer coming to Detroit?

**Zads07** · February-06-17, 06:26 PM

This certainly is a big step in that direction.

Gilbert offers to build the courthouse and jails at the Forest Ave. site and receives the Gratiot site from Wayne County.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...site/97570484/

**emu steve** · February-06-17, 07:41 PM

I, and I guess others, said Gilbert would move heaven and earth for that 'fail jail' site.

Certainly sounds like he is...

Win - win. No losers?

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · February-06-17, 08:12 PM

I would have thought Mound Road was an overall better option, but this proposal seems to check Warren Evans' justifiable requirements. I like it. Hope the county seizes on these 2 golden gifts being offered by Gilbert: it gets them out of that morass known as Fail Jail & it gets them a new criminal justice center with a cap on the county's contribution. Gilbert will cover any overruns [[which, since it won't be a government construction job, probably won't occur). When the soccer stadium opens, Ficano can get shot out of a cannon.

**Junjie** · February-06-17, 08:39 PM

Nice. All sounds good. Go for it. I just hope MLS actually awards them the franchise[[!)

**ABetterDetroit** · February-06-17, 11:29 PM

If Wayne County gets on board quickly I see a lot of reason to be confident that the bid will be won by G & G. There is nothing on this that they don't have experience in directly from their individual business dealings and from the experience of owning NBA teams respectively.

http://pressbox.mlssoccer.com/conten...meline-and-fee

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · February-06-17, 11:40 PM

Junjie, I think Detroit is the market they most want to expand into. Based on demographics, population, potential business partners/sponsors for MLS, Detroit's history as a big sports town, local affinity and participation in soccer, and last but not least, a fantastic ownership group [[Gilbert & Gores) with the commitment, money & sports-owning experience. Nothing in life is done until it is done, but we're in a good position to get a team.

**emu steve** · February-07-17, 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

Junjie, I think Detroit is the market they most want to expand into. Based on demographics, population, potential business partners/sponsors for MLS, Detroit's history as a big sports town, local affinity and participation in soccer, and last but not least, a fantastic ownership group [[Gilbert & Gores) with the commitment, money & sports-owning experience. Nothing in life is done until it is done, but we're in a good position to get a team.

Agree 100%.

MLS almost signaled that it was a slam dunk [[oops, wrong sport) if G&G get the land to build the stadium they promise.

BTW, what's the timeline? Will it take a year to untangle the fail jail project and turn the land over to G&G and then another 24 months to build the stadium? How does construction of the stadium coincide with construction of the other buildings part of the massive project?

**EGrant** · February-07-17, 12:37 PM

I'd imagine they'd build the stadium first, then the ancillary buildings. If you look closely at the footprint image from a while back, there appears to be two separate pieces. The stadium and the office towers where the FM Hall of Justice. There's not a ton built at the jail site now, so I doubt that would take very long.

**Junjie** · February-07-17, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

Junjie, I think Detroit is the market they most want to expand into. Based on demographics, population, potential business partners/sponsors for MLS, Detroit's history as a big sports town, local affinity and participation in soccer, and last but not least, a fantastic ownership group [[Gilbert & Gores) with the commitment, money & sports-owning experience. Nothing in life is done until it is done, but we're in a good position to get a team.

I agree they have a strong bid. Just nervous because most lists I've seen put Detroit in the top half of the cities bidding, but not necessarily the top 4 that will be awarded a franchise. St. Louis seems to be a lock if they can get their stadium situation together, but then we're no better off on that count. And Sacramento, one of the North Carolina bids [[Charlotte or Raleigh), and Tampa Bay all look very likely as well. I'd hate for this all to go through and then not actually get the team.

Anyway, I'm a general sports fan and not at all an MLS expert, so take it for what it's worth. But that's what I've been reading.

**mikeg19** · February-07-17, 01:00 PM

It's a bit mind blowing how many massive projects this guy has up in the air all at once. This would seem to benefit both sides, WC gets out of this mess, has a central jail close to downtown, DG gets his property and it's on the tax rolls. What's not to love here?

**emu steve** · February-07-17, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by mikeg19

It's a bit mind blowing how many massive projects this guy has up in the air all at once. This would seem to benefit both sides, WC gets out of this mess, has a central jail close to downtown, DG gets his property and it's on the tax rolls. What's not to love here?

Indeed. WC gets all new buildings in a good location. I'm not familiar with bus lines in Detroit, but I assume that it is easily accessible east/west.

It isn't too far from the VAMC on John R. If that location was considered desirable by VA for a facility to serve the Detroit area, I'd assume that the chosen location for the jail would also be considered desirable [[they aren't too far apart).

Does it get any better than that????

WC should be set for the next 50 years.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · February-07-17, 09:44 PM

Yeah, this project does seem to be a winner. Thank the Good Lord Jesus Robert Ficano ain't around to muck it up.

Junjie, I wouldn't be too nervous. We've got a great bid, and we're the largest media market in contention. Additionally, Florida and California already have other franchises. Raleigh & Charlotte also might hurt one another's bid, too. Detroit & St. Louis are well positioned to get one of the 4 bids. I think the biggest question is which 2 cities get a 2020 franchise, and which 2 get a 2022 franchise. That will likely be determined as much by which bids would include stadiums ready on time as anything else. Although MLS requires new, outdoor soccer-specific stadiums, they have allowed some leeway for franchises trying to get their stadiums built. Either Comerica Park or Ford Field would be plausible options for a season or two.

As for a timeline, well that depends on exactly when things get underway. Once a deal is done and finalized, work can begin at the criminal justice facility, and on demolishing the Fail Jail. I assume the former would take about 18 months, the latter under a year. What they can do at the stadium site prior to current court & juvenile being vacated would depend on the finalized designs. So, assuming a deal is finalized this summer [[and Detroit were awarded a franchise), I think at the outside a stadium would be ready by 2021, 2020 if the design allows for significant work to be done prior to FMHOJ and juvenile facility being demo'd.

**3WC** · February-08-17, 12:48 AM

I don't see how a soccer team could justify the expenditure of even a fraction of the cost of building the stadium and the new jail.

Soccer is not a smokescreen but it will be an ancillary use of the facility. My guess is it's being built as a replacement for the Palace's non-basketball uses which Gores doesn't want Ilitch to capture at the hockey arena. Gilbert will use it to book events to draw patrons to his casino.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · February-08-17, 01:12 AM

3WC I agree that a soccer stadium alone wouldn't merit cost directly. But hotel, office, residential & retail components also add to the value of the project. But you are getting a lot closer to the answer in your second paragraph: foot traffic generated by all the components of the project will bring substantial business to the Gilbert casino as well as to the various other businesses downtown paying rent to Mr. Gilbert. It will enhance the value of everything owned by anyone downtown. And Gilbert owns a lot.

As for Mr. Gores, I don't think he's doing his part to spite Little Caesar's Arena. The conceptual agreement between Olympia and Palace indicates that they will likely co-own and co-manage their combined entertainment facilities [[how the numbers break down may never be public; both are private corporations). I think, instead, he wants a piece of downtown Detroit's resurgence. Owning a part of a soccer franchise and the big development it will call home achieves that.

**emu steve** · February-08-17, 05:27 AM

I read the Freep article and I still can't believe the skepticism over a 1B dollar project which does so much for that area of downtown as well as for criminal justice in WC.

Seems the Freep was trying to put the project in the worst possible light, a soccer stadium.

I'd think all would like to move heaven and earth to see such a big project come to fruition. The benefits to the county and city can't be measured in dollars alone.

This project will be bigger than the Hudson site project. It will entail very large scale construction at TWO sites.

After most of the big construction is done around LCA, Detroit would have the new criminal justice buildings, the 'Gateway buildings/soccer stadium' and the Hudson site building to work on. Would that be another 10 buildings?

Got to be great news for the construction industry.

**emu steve** · February-08-17, 06:18 AM

I'm reposting this Freep article from last April with video, etc.

http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/c...bert/83609756/

What I'd like is that they could add not only h.s. football, miscellaneous soccer, etc. but I could see a MAC football game or two each year. It would make sense for maybe a CMU @ EMU game [[or WMU @ EMU) there. [[Ford Field doesn't make sense for MAC games, other than the MAC championship game).

Maybe the high school games over Labor Day weekend at Wayne State could move there.

Just like moving the Horizon League basketball tourney in March 2018 to LCA, these facilities have big potential for spin off athletic events. [[I'm still waiting to see what college basketball games will be played at LCA, e.g. a MSU game. E.g., wouldn't it be nice to have say MSU hosting Kentucky?).

**Hypestyles** · February-08-17, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by EGrant

Interesting. A jail/courthouse at the Michigan Central Station? I hate to see it empty, but a jail? Hmm.

hopefully Tom Gores will buy the MCS and turn it into something useful.

If this proposal is accepted-- what other type of criminal justice apparatus would have to be nearby, that the proposal does not cover?

how is this going to affect public transit routes? There would need to be DDOT routes, and at least one SMART route.

**Junjie** · February-08-17, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Hypestyles

how is this going to affect public transit routes? There would need to be DDOT routes, and at least one SMART route.

Do you mean routes to the new jail site at Warren/Russell/Forest? It's pretty well-served by DDOT, at least judging be the schedules.

Direct service:
- 14 Crosstown [[Warren), scheduled every 20 minutes at rush and every 30 mins most of the rest of the day. 24-hour route.
- 40 Russell, weekday-only once an hour.

Walk from:
- 49 Vernor at St. Antoine, scheduled every 30 minutes most of the day. Weekday-only, though. About 2,000 feet away which is a 10 minute walk or less.
- 80 Villages Direct, every 25-30 minutes, weekday rush hours only. Same distance as Vernor from nearest stop.
- 53 Woodward, best-served route in the city with buses scheduled every 10 minutes through most of the day. 24-hour route. About 4,100 feet if walking along Canfield, so maybe a 20-25 minute walk.

As far as SMART, looks like there are various SMART buses that terminate on Canfield between DMC and VA, including some Van Dyke and Gratiot routes. That's about 3,500 feet / 20 minutes away. I'm not too familiar with their routes though.

**Junjie** · February-08-17, 01:08 PM

New article from the News is more upbeat than Freep. This seems to be one of the outstanding points, along with value of credits to Gilbert for "operational savings":

"More urgently, would the county and Rock be successful persuading the Internal Revenue Service that tax credits on bonds issued for the original jail project should not be “clawed back” because the site is being moved? Rock’s offer stipulates that it would work to resolve the issue, “including possibly obtaining a Private Letter Ruling,” and that it would reimburse the county for any third-party expenses."

Maybe someone smarter than me can spell out exactly what that means. Is repaying the IRS credits something that would fall under "third-party expenses," i.e. is Gilbert offering to pay those back if they fail to convince the IRS? Or is that more likely a reference to cost of litigation or something?

**DetroiterOnTheWestCoast** · February-08-17, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by Zads07

This certainly is a big step in that direction.

Gilbert offers to build the courthouse and jails at the Forest Ave. site and receives the Gratiot site from Wayne County.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...site/97570484/

....plus he receives $300,000,000 plus "a credit to be paid to the company for the savings a new consolidated criminal justice complex would provide." Which sounds like the savings will accrue to Gilbert and not the county. This is hardly an altruistic deal on Gilbert's part. He is "offering to build the courthouse and jails" with a hefty price tag.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · February-08-17, 04:03 PM

DOTWC, Gilbert is offering to build the criminal the criminal justice complex for the county for the price that the county has stated it would take them to finish the existing jail [[let alone the renovations needed at FMHOJ). Additionally, Gilbert has said his team would cover any cost over-runs.

What the "cost savings" are, how they are to be determined, and how that would affect finances for the county and Gilbert of course needs to be explained. I'm assuming operational efficiencies would be taken off of Gilbert's property tax tab. While every question does need an answer, I can't understand how this could be anything but positive for both the county and the city. Warren Evans is both pragmatic & a very good administrator; I think he'll take the deal in the end.

As for Dan Gilbert and altruism: he has no business being altruistic in his business efforts. The single greatest thing he has done for the city is show everyone that you can come downtown, do business & make money. And he does on deal after deal after deal. His profitable enterprises are infinitely better for the city and region than if he just stayed in the 'burbs and wrote Detroit a billion dollar check. This deal is him saying, "I can bring a huge, money-making, people-attracting project smack downtown, and make enough money on it that I'll essentially eat a few hundred million upfront, and that's okay."

**emu steve** · February-13-17, 05:56 AM

Nice article with detailed comments by experts in the field on the proposed deal.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...unty/97750462/

**401don** · February-13-17, 12:16 PM

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...nths/97844480/

Apparently months of vetting to be done. Curious why Walsh Construction would be hired to do the analysis. Unless Gilbert has agreed to hire them for the new site, what incentive would they have to recommend it when they would lose out on the existing site?

**mikeg19** · February-13-17, 12:38 PM

I guess it's good news that they are going to entertain it and dig into this as opposed to an outright NO. But if it's going to take months to vet this out, I wonder how that will impact the MLS bid. Would they need to forego 2020 and hope for one of the 2022 spots?

**emu steve** · February-16-17, 04:07 AM

Nice article dated yesterday [[Feb. 15). Two salient points to me:

1). The county owns the land where the new facilities would be built. Assumed, but nice to see in writing.

2). Rock Ventures said they will develop the fail jail site regardless of being given [[or not) a MLS franchise.

Re: #2. I'd assume some folks here would be perfectly happy to have the fail jail site developed without a stadium. Just developed. Period.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...osal/97935784/