Pro soccer coming to Detroit?

**Spartan** · April-01-14, 07:56 PM

UPDATE of UPDATE:
Soccer Stadium on Failed Wayne County Jail Site Proposal is back in Play.

Jump to updated discussion >>

UPDATE: Soccer Stadium at stalled county jail site dead?
Wayne County moves forward with Detroit jail project

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Preliminary agreement reached to bring a USL Pro [[3rd tier) team to Detroit. They would build a 5,000 seat stadium. Maybe Corktown? Cass Corridor? Near Motor City Casino? Exciting news and maybe one step closer to potential MLS expansion.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...vision-league#

**swingline** · April-02-14, 12:45 PM

It's very interesting that Dan Duggan is looking to base this new team in downtown Detroit. From the Crain's article:

“The plan is to make sure we have a solid product that will make money from Day 1, win on and off the field, and draw enough fan support, corporate and civic support to follow [[Orlando to becoming an MLS team)” Duggan said. “Our plan is to show MLS within five years that we have all the necessary components to be considered for a franchise.

“MLS will not come to Detroit just because someone builds a stadium. MLS has made it very clear that without proven fan and corporate support, there will be no team. This is Detroit’s one opportunity to show the soccer world that we are ready, willing and able to support pro soccer as a passionate sport and not just a hobby to many.”

Detroit City FC and its ownership have made huge progress in developing the kind of fan support and soccer culture that attracts MLS interest. And they've done it in downtown. They've build a good foundation and created some real soccer brand equity. But, there's not a huge overlap between Detroit City and Michigan Bucks fan bases. Does Mr. Duggan work collaboratively with Detroit City FC, buy them out, run them out of town, or what? Curious. It's doubtful that both a 3d Division and a 4th Division team can successfully coexist downtown.

**Downriviera** · July-29-16, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by swingline

It's very interesting that Dan Duggan is looking to base this new team in downtown Detroit. From the Crain's article:

Detroit City FC and its ownership have made huge progress in developing the kind of fan support and soccer culture that attracts MLS interest. And they've done it in downtown. They've build a good foundation and created some real soccer brand equity. But, there's not a huge overlap between Detroit City and Michigan Bucks fan bases. Does Mr. Duggan work collaboratively with Detroit City FC, buy them out, run them out of town, or what? Curious. It's doubtful that both a 3d Division and a 4th Division team can successfully coexist downtown.

I think many fans will still enjoy the ambiance of the lower division teams. The Jr Wings packed the Joe. Sure many of the tix were giveaways but fans still came there and spent money to park, eat and drink. Plymouth Whalers did well as did the Detroit Vipers. In fact, the MLS team may spark an interest in the lower level teams. I will attend both MLS and Detroit FC if given the opportunity.

**esp1986** · July-29-16, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Downriviera

I think many fans will still enjoy the ambiance of the lower division teams. The Jr Wings packed the Joe. Sure many of the tix were giveaways but fans still came there and spent money to park, eat and drink. Plymouth Whalers did well as did the Detroit Vipers. In fact, the MLS team may spark an interest in the lower level teams. I will attend both MLS and Detroit FC if given the opportunity.

The Plymouth Whalers DID NOT do well, financially anyway. The arena in Plymouth holds nearly 4000 people, and most nights had less than 2000, by the time they moved. Even in the better days in the early 2000s, it rarely surpassed 2500. That's a big reason why the arena and team were sold, and the team was relocated to Flint. Before they were sold, a friend with the organization told me they were hemorrhaging money, and had been for a few years.

There is no denying the success they had as the Jr. Wings, however [[before moving to Plymouth). They set a CHL record for attendance that I believe still stands. Being in Detroit, really opened them up to the Windsor market and the rabid Canadian hockey fans that would cross the border regularly to see any hockey game, even though they have the Windsor Spitfires who play in the same division in the OHL. An unfortunate fued between the Ilitch family and Peter Karmanos, led to their relocation to suburbia.

The IHL was a dumpster fire of it's own...

There is a certain draw to the lower level teams, but no one from the city is going to travel to the suburbs to see them. As long as they are in the city, they will draw a crowd, as DCFC does today.

**emu steve** · April-03-14, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Spartan

Preliminary agreement reached to bring a USL Pro [[3rd tier) team to Detroit. They would build a 5,000 seat stadium. Maybe Corktown? Cass Corridor? Near Motor City Casino? Exciting news and maybe one step closer to potential MLS expansion.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...vision-league#

The 'side issue' is where are the Ilitches on this? Do they want in on it????

They control so much land in the entertainment district. Seems like the Ilitiches could have their MC Casino, and then a soccer stadium and an arena and a ball park... Sounds like an 'entertainment district' to me.

I'm curious if even Gilbert wants a piece of the action? He knows how to acquire land and has pretty deep pockets. [[His pockets don't seem to have a bottom).

Maybe do a public stock sale to raise say 5M if some deep pocket folks don't step forward.

**ticktock** · April-15-16, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by emu steve

I'm curious if even Gilbert wants a piece of the action? He knows how to acquire land and has pretty deep pockets. [[His pockets don't seem to have a bottom).

Gilbert has already stated that he has no interest in soccer. The only Detroit team he would be interest in buying are the Tigers. Which is not out of the question if the Ilitches decide to sell the team once Mike is gone.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · April-15-16, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by ticktock

Gilbert has already stated that he has no interest in soccer.

I'm not so sure about that. First, if one is considering investing money in something, one doesn't usually announce it. It drives prices of anything up. Second, even if he has no interest in soccer, he might be interested if it seemed like a sound investment or way to draw people into downtown, boosting revenue and value of his other properties and businesses. I am not saying he is in any way interested. Just that a public denial is potentially not sincere.

Secondly, I doubt the Ilitches would sell the Tigers but not the Wings. I would think that they would either be all in or all out in terms of sports. But who knows. Generational changes and large checks can be big drivers of change.

**ticktock** · April-15-16, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

I'm not so sure about that. First, if one is considering investing money in something, one doesn't usually announce it. It drives prices of anything up. Second, even if he has no interest in soccer, he might be interested if it seemed like a sound investment or way to draw people into downtown, boosting revenue and value of his other properties and businesses. I am not saying he is in any way interested. Just that a public denial is potentially not sincere.

Secondly, I doubt the Ilitches would sell the Tigers but not the Wings. I would think that they would either be all in or all out in terms of sports. But who knows. Generational changes and large checks can be big drivers of change.

At this moment, an MLS team is not a sound investment because their TV deal is basically worthless. Unless Gilbert receives a subsidy or the city builds him a new stadium, it would be hard to justify it. DC United is one of the top brands in MLS and it took them years to finally get a stadium approved. Using tax money to build a fourth stadium in the city would not sit well with the citizens of Detroit. Just look at all the heat Ilitch got for using state tax money [[thanks to Snyder) towards the new arena.

The rumor I've heard is that Chris Ilitch is not a big baseball fan and that he would rather keep the hockey team. The NHL has a salary cap and with the new arena it's gonna be a lot easier to keep the team profitable, compared to the Tigers who have a $200 million payroll and is much harder to build a consistent baseball team. Maybe it won't happen, but that's the rumor and Gilbert seems to be very interested in the Tigers if the team becomes available.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · April-15-16, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by ticktock

At this moment, an MLS team is not a sound investment because their TV deal is basically worthless.

Well, not in the league of the Big 4 rights, they are far from worthless. The national broadcast rights [[not counting Canadian rights or international rights) are $720M over 8 years. This does not include local broadcast TV or any radio revenue, which very greatly by market [[Hispanic-heavy markets have much higher local soccer ratings, not surprisingly). They also have league-wide sponsorships in the hundreds of millions of dollars.

With the unique revenue and salary structure of MLS, they are actually pretty strong financially. I would argue that while less lucrative than the other US major leagues are, MLS club ownership is also less risky. The MLS Wikipedia page outlines the strong and growing revenue, and the fact that most of the clubs are actually turning an annual profit. Also: the rate of growth of soccer money is exceeding the rate of growth in other sports. MLS investment might not be a goldmine, but it hardly seems like any kind of foolhardy financial adventure. What it does take is an owner who realizes that it is a long-term investment.

TV Deal Article: http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/t...Univision.html

Wikipedia MLS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_...#United_States

**emu steve** · February-05-17, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

I'm not so sure about that. First, if one is considering investing money in something, one doesn't usually announce it. It drives prices of anything up. Second, even if he has no interest in soccer, he might be interested if it seemed like a sound investment or way to draw people into downtown, boosting revenue and value of his other properties and businesses. I am not saying he is in any way interested. Just that a public denial is potentially not sincere.

Secondly, I doubt the Ilitches would sell the Tigers but not the Wings. I would think that they would either be all in or all out in terms of sports. But who knows. Generational changes and large checks can be big drivers of change.

One thing about the Ilitches...

If they were to sell the Wings why spend all the time, effort and money on LCA and what it entails? Just to prop up the value of the Wings???

So if they'd sell the Wings, their 'empire' would be Tigers, the Fox, and Little Caesars [[plus the casino).

Sounds like a far cry from their 50 block plan.

A 50-block strategy sounds like an integrated plan to have a mini-city with sports, entertainment, lodging, housing, headquarter building, etc. etc.

If the Ilitches were to sell the Tigers and Wings, why would Chris care about the 50 block development? It would be a shell of itself.

**archfan** · February-06-17, 01:55 AM

Originally Posted by emu steve

...
If the Ilitches were to sell the Tigers and Wings, why would Chris care about the 50 block development? It would be a shell of itself.

I bet your cousin Chris cared about the 50 block plan only to the extent that it got his stadium paid for.

**emu steve** · April-03-14, 10:53 AM

One other thought:

The site would need to be sufficient for a 5K stadium but ultimately large enough to expand to a 20K+ stadium.

**emu steve** · April-03-14, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Spartan

Preliminary agreement reached to bring a USL Pro [[3rd tier) team to Detroit. They would build a 5,000 seat stadium. Maybe Corktown? Cass Corridor? Near Motor City Casino? Exciting news and maybe one step closer to potential MLS expansion.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...vision-league#

How about Cass, Leyard, Henry, and 2nd block with additional acreage toward the Fisher, if needed?

Parking to fill the space from the edge of the stadium to the freeway?

**DetroitPlanner** · April-03-14, 11:11 AM

It would be nice to see them upgrade WSU's football stadium as a public-private partnership arrangement.

**emu steve** · April-03-14, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

It would be nice to see them upgrade WSU's football stadium as a public-private partnership arrangement.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a stadium built for FB might be too small for a soccer field unless there is extra room between the field and stands.

Adams Field does have a track inside the stadium.

**DetroitPlanner** · April-03-14, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by emu steve

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a stadium built for FB might be too small for a soccer field unless there is extra room between the field and stands.

Adams Field does have a track inside the stadium.

You can build dual purpose stadiums. It is done all the time. WSU's current stadium is not ideal for college football. By partnering there is less risk for both parties. D.C., Seattle and Boston are all shared facilities with the NFL. Orlando plays in the Citrus Bowl.

**emu steve** · April-04-14, 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

You can build dual purpose stadiums. It is done all the time. WSU's current stadium is not ideal for college football. By partnering there is less risk for both parties. D.C., Seattle and Boston are all shared facilities with the NFL. Orlando plays in the Citrus Bowl.

I understand your point. I think. Build a new FB/soccer stadium where WSU has their athletic facilities?

I'm curious if an owner would want that? Everyone wants to be near downtown, I think.

My point was that one can't get a soccer field into Adams Field, as configured, because of the track inside the stadium.

**DetroitPlanner** · April-04-14, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by emu steve

I understand your point. I think. Build a new FB/soccer stadium where WSU has their athletic facilities?

I'm curious if an owner would want that? Everyone wants to be near downtown, I think.

My point was that one can't get a soccer field into Adams Field, as configured, because of the track inside the stadium.

The land is too valuable to build a one sport small stadium like that. It would never generate that kind of revenue it would take to justify that much of an investment. There are plenty of places near the WSU site that would benefit and it is not that far of a walk from most of Cass Corridor redevelopments.

**Hypestyles** · April-03-14, 11:11 AM

hopefully pro soccer will come to Detroit- and the team[[s?) will have quite a bit of urban centered community outreach regarding youth soccer programs, especially at the high school level. It would be cool for some DPS schools to develop a competitive varsity soccer program.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · April-05-14, 12:31 PM

I oppose another soccer club in Detroit, as I think it will ultimately hinder Detroit's chances of landing an MLS team in the near term. I think Detroit can sustain an MLS franchise. The best place to put a stadium, in my opinion, would be the Tiger Stadium site. The land in Midtown just north of the new hockey arena or downtown west of the Fox could work, too, but the land values are jumping too quickly. As others have noted, MLS now has a working business model, attendance is strong for most of the league [[huge in Seattle!), and there is an abundant, mostly low-level soccer culture in Detroit. National TV rights for MLS are sought after; MLS also airs on cable sports or local broadcast TV & radio in every market. Having another minor league team raises the risk that if it doesn't succeed, it will be thought we can't support an MLS team; if it does succeed, people will think the soccer market is over-saturated in Detroit.

**emu steve** · April-05-14, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

I oppose another soccer club in Detroit, as I think it will ultimately hinder Detroit's chances of landing an MLS team in the near term. I think Detroit can sustain an MLS franchise. The best place to put a stadium, in my opinion, would be the Tiger Stadium site. The land in Midtown just north of the new hockey arena or downtown west of the Fox could work, too, but the land values are jumping too quickly. As others have noted, MLS now has a working business model, attendance is strong for most of the league [[huge in Seattle!), and there is an abundant, mostly low-level soccer culture in Detroit. National TV rights for MLS are sought after; MLS also airs on cable sports or local broadcast TV & radio in every market. Having another minor league team raises the risk that if it doesn't succeed, it will be thought we can't support an MLS team; if it does succeed, people will think the soccer market is over-saturated in Detroit.

I'm not sure if I'm following this correctly:

Duggan [[mayor's bro) owns an amateur team in Pontiac with a working agreement for the Columbus team.

Does that team get moved?

Why would Duggan want to own two teams competing with each other? Could the Pontiac team could become a feeder for the Detroit team? What would be the financial implications of giving up a working agreement with the Columbus team?

And maybe bigger what happens to the Detroit fourth tier team that Duggan does NOT own???? Would Duggan buy the team out [[e.g., franchise and players)??

Stock a new team with the best players from the Pontiac and Detroit teams????

**Spartan** · April-05-14, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by emu steve

I'm not sure if I'm following this correctly:

Duggan [[mayor's bro) owns an amateur team in Pontiac with a working agreement for the Columbus team.

Does that team get moved?

Why would Duggan want to own two teams competing with each other? Could the Pontiac team could become a feeder for the Detroit team? What would be the financial implications of giving up a working agreement with the Columbus team?

And maybe bigger what happens to the Detroit fourth tier team that Duggan does NOT own???? Would Duggan buy the team out [[e.g., franchise and players)??

Stock a new team with the best players from the Pontiac and Detroit teams????

The Bucks and this new team wouldn't really be competitors since they are at different levels. I think the ultimate idea is that they draw well, establish a fan base and sponsorships, and eventually look to make the move to MLS, or at least NASL in a few years [[see Orlando).

**emu steve** · April-05-14, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by Spartan

The Bucks and this new team wouldn't really be competitors since they are at different levels. I think the ultimate idea is that they draw well, establish a fan base and sponsorships, and eventually look to make the move to MLS, or at least NASL in a few years [[see Orlando).

How would the new team get stocked? This is important if the team is to be competitive early.

On 2nd thought so long as a MLS team isn't in Detroit, I agree the Pontiac team isn't a competitor. Each have their own markets.

I find it hard to believe, though, that two Detroit teams though, could co-exist maybe blocks apart. [[the other, Detroit FC). I would think that Detroit FC would get bought out and would help stock the new team

**ABetterDetroit** · April-15-16, 05:18 PM

Major League Soccer is forming a expansion committee and according to this article Detroit getting a team will be up for discussion.

http://www.espnfc.us/major-league-so...-mls-expansion

**emu steve** · April-15-16, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

Major League Soccer is forming a expansion committee and according to this article Detroit getting a team will be up for discussion.

http://www.espnfc.us/major-league-so...-mls-expansion

As I have posted previously, the new stadium in D.C. being built [[last I checked the land was being cleared) costs about 150M NOT counting land, infrastructure costs, etc.

So reading this article, getting a franchise for Detroit won't be cheap. Someone needs deep pockets.

Say 150 - 175M for a stadium. ? for land. Say 150M franchise fee?

350M of 2016 dollars????