Pro soccer coming to Detroit?

[emu steve]

I guess it's good news that they are going to entertain it and dig into this as opposed to an outright NO. But if it's going to take months to vet this out, I wonder how that will impact the MLS bid. Would they need to forego 2020 and hope for one of the 2022 spots?

D.C. Zoning is expected to formally okay the new D.C. soccer stadium today. Construction to begin immediately [[prelim work already done). ETA: June 2018.

They are literally talking 16 months to build a soccer stadium.

What I would suspect is that once the deal is finalized to build the criminal justice fac. at the new location they can begin to clear the fail jail site, regardless of what ultimately goes there.

[3WC]

Does anyone think there's even a remote possibility that Gilbert/Gores WON'T get a soccer franchise for Detroit if they want one?

The league should be begging them - paying them, in fact - to build a stadium and start a franchise in Detroit.

Months for the county to "vet" the deal? They should accept it in a microsecond. The trouble is that Evens and the County Commission together aren't half as smart as Gilbert.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

emusteve, I think you are correct about the jail part of the site. But obviously the other buildings will need to be replaced before they are demo'd. That will take 1.5+ years, depending on how fast they can get underway at the new facility. Also, what can be accomplished on the jail site will depend on final project design. Everything we've seen thus far are conceptual drawings. I'm hoping at least a foundation and support infrastructure can be in place on fail jail site. But detailed engineering and design needs to be done first. I don't think any stakeholder involved would have an issue with a Detroit team playing a season at Ford Field or Comerica Park if need be.

3WC, there is always a chance Detroit won't get a franchise. However, I think it is very likely Detroit would get one, assuming stadium plans go forward. Detroit is, I think, the largest media market in contention, has able and amply funded owners, and a community likely to be fertile ground for MLS success. Whether we get a team for 2020 or 2022 is more likely the operative question in my opinion. Although MLS is only going to announce 2 of the 4 new teams this year, I think it is likely they will determine all 4, and then award 2 to the bids that are to include new facilities most quickly.

As for Evans and the County Commission: I strongly feel that they should and will realize that this is a one-of-a-kind special opportunity for the county: allowing it to have the criminal justice facilities it needs, protect taxpayers with the least possible county expenditure & coverage for any overruns, improving a large development site in the city and county, and lastly getting that f'in Fail Jail site out of everyone's life. BUT, they do need to make sure that all the I's are dotted and T's are crossed. I don't blame them one bit- after having directly wasted a massive amount of money [[and indirectly wasting much more)- for taking a little time to get it right. It's a complicated, complicated proposal involving not just construction but taxes, contracts, bonds, zoning, infrastructure, etc. That all needs to be considered before signing on. I think all signs are positive at this point, but rational heads need to do a lot of work.

[emu steve]

Lot of good points, Mikey.

I'm thinking 2022 is best for Detroit. Tying together some of Mikey's comments.

If the 15 acres were available today, vacant, undeveloped land, then 2020 would be possible if work on a stadium began in 2018. Twenty four months should be enough for a smallish soccer stadium. D.C. will do it in less than 18 months.

I'll guess that the develop-able land won't be available until say 2019 so 2022 is actually a comfortable date.

I also think because it is part of a bigger project [[which will be completed later) that the time to plan and build will take longer. This isn't like give them 10 - 15 acres some where out by Detroit Metro airport and start digging tomorrow.

I doubt Gilbert-Gores want to play a season in Ford Field [[I'm not sure the field is big enough for soccer).

I' say #Detroit2022.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Well, I agree the Gilbert & Gores would prefer to have a new stadium open for the first day of MLS in Detroit, but I think they primarily care about getting an MLS franchise, and if they needed to play elsewhere for a little while, they'd be okay with it. And yes, both Ford Field and Comerica Park are large enough to house soccer. DC United play at RFK Stadium [[old, dual purpose stadium that was actually shared with the MLB Nationals for a few seasons), NYCFC currently plays at Yankee Stadium, Seattle Sounders play at the Seahawks' stadium, and NE Revolution play at Gillette Field [[home of the Patriots). MLS has stated that they insist on soccer-specific & natural grass turfs, but they have been willing to work with teams on those conditions. Temporary accommodations in indoor arenas or on other teams' fields has been acceptable. Seattle and New England have also been granted ongoing permission to play in NFL stadia, probably because those MLS franchises are owned by the NFL franchise owner in question [[Paul Allen owns the Seahawks, the stadium & part of the Seattle Sounders), and also because they have been attracting larger-than-average MLS crowds to those big parks. Seattle, especially, has been averaging more than 40,000 people per game.

[emu steve]

I hear you Mikey, but I doubt G-G are in that big of a rush.

If Gilbert is in a rush it is to acquire the fail jail area site so he can begin planning his development there.

They want the franchise, in due time, and at a location which makes the most sense. I assume they would be perfectly fine with 2022.

Buying a soccer franchise is really about the 'long game' wanting to be have something which will grow over the decades to come.

Buying an expansion franchise now is a way to avoid being 'shutout' later.

I forget: When will MLS announce their next round of expansion cities?

EDIT: It is fun to post of this subject. No one can accuse me of being a homer for the Ilitches as they have nothing to do with the site, a MLS team, etc. The site isn't even in 'District Detroit.'

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

emusteve, it is fun to speculate about all of this. Those, or at least many of those, that have rather harsh responses to either one of our sometimes enthusiastic posts don't grasp that the viciousness is more of a declaration of their own pessimism about both Detroit specifically and life in general than it is a reaction to us. They are the kind of people that would win the lottery only to complain about the taxes.

But back on topic, I think either 2020 or 2022 very plausibly works for the G-G project. While in some respects I think that 2022 seems to work better [[more time to plan as well as more time to build), I do think that knowing the outcome sooner rather than later is a better planning tool than anything else. I know I read in one of the dozens of articles on MLS expansion the dates for announcing the cities, but I don't recall exactly. I *think* the first 2 cities will be announced late spring/early summer. The other 2 cities at a later date, I would assume at least a year away.

I agree that getting an expansion franchise is a way to lock in a long-term opportunity. MLS is in several ways very different from the other 4 major pro sports leagues. First, the league owns all the teams. The "franchisee" is just a licensed local operator. The "owner" has no power to sell or relocate a team. So, down the line, a city looking to entice an existing team to move will find it extremely tricky. No Browns or Colts or Raiders moving in the middle of the night for MLS. Secondly, because MLS nearly went out of business in its first ten years, they are now VERY picky about cities and ownership groups. It is not just about who can write a big check. So, they are approching [[after these four are awarded) being a "full" national sports league with 26 teams. They would probably cap out with around 30 teams [[maybe a few more), so there won't be many left to award in the following years, and it will be difficult to get one to move. So aggressively seeking one now is the way to move forward, and Gilbert and Gores are doing it.

For me, wanting us to get an MLS franchise comes down to 3 great loves in my life: Detroit, sports, and men's legs.

[emu steve]

I absolutely agree it has to be one of these next four and depending G-G's 'a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush' attitude will determine what year they push hardest for.

BTW, all of this construction has to be great for Detroit over the next five years: District Detroit related, criminal justice buildings, fail jail site developments, Hudson's site, etc.

Great time to be in construction...

[ABetterDetroit]

At some point in time it would be cool if Wayne County and Detroit politicians would at least look at economic studies from somebody intelligent about bringing in taxpayers and jobs.

Ignoring them hasn't worked out so great for a long time.

Lansing isn't interested in helping with the problem, that much is sure. Why not pay attention to U of M?

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...ent/100037678/

[401don]

At some point in time it would be cool if Wayne County and Detroit politicians would at least look at economic studies from somebody intelligent about bringing in taxpayers and jobs.

Ignoring them hasn't worked out so great for a long time.

Lansing isn't interested in helping with the problem, that much is sure. Why not pay attention to U of M?

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...ent/100037678/

I'm all for the proposal and yea, Dan's the man, but that is one big ass pitcher of Kool-Aid.

[emu steve]

I'm all for the proposal and yea, Dan's the man, but that is one big ass pitcher of Kool-Aid.

Wonder what the numbers would have been if MSU had conducted the study? LOL or SMH.

Those numbers are unreal.

[ABetterDetroit]

Wonder what the numbers would have been if MSU had conducted the study? LOL or SMH.

Those numbers are unreal.

You said it Steve. I wondered exactly the same thing. U of M doesn't have a dog in this fight.

[ekleezy]

http://deadspin.com/st-louis-citizen...1794019830/amp

Looks like St Louis' chances of getting a team just went down a lot. Good call for them to not use public money and good for us if it makes our chances better.

[Shai_Hulud]

At some point in time it would be cool if Wayne County and Detroit politicians would at least look at economic studies from somebody intelligent about bringing in taxpayers and jobs.

Ignoring them hasn't worked out so great for a long time.

Lansing isn't interested in helping with the problem, that much is sure. Why not pay attention to U of M?

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...ent/100037678/

The numbers might be optimistic but you don't need a study to know that one of the uses generates tax revenue and growth while the other does not. I am not a sports fan and don't love all the single purpose stadiums, but this would be infinitely better than the fail jail.

Wayne county already lost the ability to close the other facilities because the fail jail was built too small and they only have one contractor lined up because no one else is interested. I just don't understand how they're trying to play hardball with Gilbert when they can't even maintain the Guardian.

[emu steve]

http://deadspin.com/st-louis-citizen...1794019830/amp

Looks like St Louis' chances of getting a team just went down a lot. Good call for them to not use public money and good for us if it makes our chances better.

St. L is going to lose a soccer team over 60M????

[bust]

St. L is going to lose a soccer team over 60M????

Don't forget what happened when St. Louis wasted public money on a football stadium. They lost the team but are stuck paying off an empty stadium through 2021.

With NFL Rams gone, St. Louis still stuck with stadium debt
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-sp...-idUSKCN0VC0EP

If your point is $60M doesn't buy a lot these days I disagree.

St. Louis has other priorities. So do we.

[ekleezy]

St. L is going to lose a soccer team over 60M????

Obviously not that alone. You don't think that'll hurt their chances at all though? Now they have to go to their next plan for financing and hope that works. At the very least it's a pretty substantial setback for a little while.

[emu steve]

Don't forget what happened when St. Louis wasted public money on a football stadium. They lost the team but are stuck paying off an empty stadium through 2021.

With NFL Rams gone, St. Louis still stuck with stadium debt
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-sp...-idUSKCN0VC0EP

If your point is $60M doesn't buy a lot these days I disagree.

St. Louis has other priorities. So do we.

I agree that the Rams were a disaster although I'm not sure what that has to do with a soccer team.

Today cities are being asked to put up say 10 x the $60M for a football stadium.

By that standard, a 60M soccer stadium deal is a bargain.

I'm not sure I'd conflate a bad deal [[600M) with a good deal [[60M).

What I think this and D.C.'s Nationals Park shows is the difference between football and baseball stadiums for the city.

Football stadiums, because they have what 10 scheduled NFL games per year are not financially self supporting.

As I have posted before, Nationals Park actually produces more income from the business tax and revenues from tickets, etc. such that the REVENUE is GREATER than the DEBT SERVICE.

Win some [[Nationals Park) and lose some [[Jones Dome).

[313WX]

I'm hearing that the MLS is going to make a "major" annonucement in Nashville at 3:30pm CT today.

What a fucking embarassment if we, a city with 5+ million people, can't even get our shit together long enough to out compete a city with less than 2 million people for a MLS franchise.

[EGrant]

Nashville is interesting. They might not have the population, but their downtown is booming. They also don't have baseball and basketball to compete against.

Plus, if they announce a new ownership/stadium plan, that puts them ahead of Detroit in that area. We don't even have a site.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

A quick Google scan seemed to reveal a coalescing in Nashville of 2 different organizations pushing soccer expansion into 1 unified campaign. No hint of MLS announcing a winning bid.

I think all the cities on MLS's list of 12 could plausibly win franchise and have a good shot at being a success with it. I still think, though, that Detroit's bid is just about the best there is out there. But MLS will not award us- or probably anyone else- a franchise until stadium plans are pretty firmed up. Wayne County consenting the Gilbert-Gores plan is just about all that Detroit needs to make its strongest case.

Should the county not take the deal [[which would be a genuine error in public administration, if you ask me), I think Detroit's chances would go down, but not necessarily disappear. Although they have said otherwise in public, I would be shocked if they don't have an idea for a Plan B for stadium location. Personally, I would build, as a second choice, either at the industrial edges of Corktown, or near Wayne State, with a stadium doubling as a new college football stadium.

But whatever. Assuming the county gets its ducks in a row and jumps on board, I would bet we know our bid's status before July 4th. And I think it would be in the affirmative. If the Fail Jail site is nixed, I think we'll get our Plan B to win the 3rd or 4th slot, slated to be announced next year.

It should be noted, EGrant, that most of the cities in contention do not have concrete stadium plans at this point, so it is not as if we're behind on that. We're actually just a Warren Evans nod away from being ahead of most of them.

[emu steve]

Wasn't there 'word' or speculation that Plan B stadium site would be either downtown/Midtown or river front?

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Not that I'm aware of. I don't know where on the Riverfront would really be good for a stadium, except perhaps the Uniroyal site next to the bridge. Also, I think putting it on the riverfront also makes the spillover foot traffic-driven business to shops & restaurants kind of nil. Downtown and midtown it is hard to find a large enough space, except perhaps behind the Fox. But then it would need to be a Gilbert-Gores-Ilitch project. And anything midtown/downtown would be very pricey and difficult, in terms of land acquisition. That's one reason I think a WSU connection helps. WSU could get the land and own the stadium, which GG would pay to build, and they could share the facility. Not a perfect option, but a decent one, if you ask me.

[EGrant]

Yeah looks like the Nashville announcement was a big 'ol dud.

As far as alternate sites, I think something outside of the core could be cool. Many stadiums around the world do a great job integrating into the surrounding neighborhood, kind of like Tiger Stadium did in Corktown, Wrigley in Chicago and to a far smaller extent, Keyworth in Hamtramck.

[casscorridor]

What is the obsession with having stadiums in the downtowns of cities? Imagine New York City with Yankee Stadium in Times Square or London with Wembley Stadium in Trafalger Square.