Pro soccer coming to Detroit?

[emu steve]

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nb...eld/823112001/

SO if a MLS franchise would play out of Ford Field, what the hell is DG going to be building on the Gratiot Jail Site???? Did he realize that the land could be better utilized for retail/housing/hotel/office space? This should be an interesting development whenever we see what it'll be.

Should be interesting. Not sure what Gilbert ultimately wanted to do, namely, building retail/housing/hotel/office OR soccer stadium OR BOTH?

It's easy to say 'both' but I'm not 100% sure if that was his motivation.

I was never sold on the idea of having a soccer stadium ringed by other buildings.

[401don]

This will really piss off true soccer fans. A large indoor stadium with artificial grass. Everything they despise.

[Atticus]

What is still unclear in all of this is:

1) Does Gilbert still get the opportunity to redevelop the fail jail site with something else? And does he want to with no soccer stadium?

2) Or does it revert back to finishing the jail site now, and Gilbert walks away from it all?

[leland_palmer]

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...own/826261001/

[hybridy]

What is still unclear in all of this is:

1) Does Gilbert still get the opportunity to redevelop the fail jail site with something else? And does he want to with no soccer stadium?

2) Or does it revert back to finishing the jail site now, and Gilbert walks away from it all?

per crains:

"From the time we started working on the Gratiot site, we have always been focused on the importance of a great mixed-use development at the gateway to downtown Detroit, soccer was just a potential component of our vision," said Matt Cullen, the top Gilbert aide and Rock Ventures principal handing the real estate portion of the soccer bid. "But once we better understood Ford Field's unique attributes, including the recent renovations and a bowl design that is perfectly suited for soccer, we decided to change course. We have made clear to the county that we are still fully committed to moving forward with our proposal to build out a new criminal justice complex on Warren and I-75. We are also fully committed to a mixed-use development on the Gratiot site that will be an economic driver for our community."

[swingline]

This will really piss off true soccer fans. A large indoor stadium with artificial grass. Everything they despise.

Agree. It might be hard for some to understand but the decision to play in a football facility rather than a soccer specific venue is a big deal. Turf rather than grass is a big deal. Some commenters have suggested that the success of Seattle and Atlanta in large football facilities has MLS rethinking its normal mandate for soccer specific stadia. Does ownership think that they can draw 40k like Atlanta and Seattle? The turf debate rages on though. Players hate it and most believe that it causes more injuries. The league hasn't banned it though.

Maybe the unspoken plan is to secure the expansion award with Ford Field so as to provide more time to get a soccer specific facility built. If expansion was awarded tomorrow, it's pretty unlikely a new stadium would be ready by 2020.

[Atticus]

Agree. It might be hard for some to understand but the decision to play in a football facility rather than a soccer specific venue is a big deal. Turf rather than grass is a big deal. Some commenters have suggested that the success of Seattle and Atlanta in large football facilities has MLS rethinking its normal mandate for soccer specific stadia. Does ownership think that they can draw 40k like Atlanta and Seattle? The turf debate rages on though. Players hate it and most believe that it causes more injuries. The league hasn't banned it though.

Maybe the unspoken plan is to secure the expansion award with Ford Field so as to provide more time to get a soccer specific facility built. If expansion was awarded tomorrow, it's pretty unlikely a new stadium would be ready by 2020.

Very good points. MLS has also made it clear that they prefer a soccer only stadium, so this change COULD hurt Detroit's chances at winning an expansion bid. Will be interesting to see how this plays out, and I get the grass/turf argument as well.

Now, that all being said, there is also the possibility Detroit could still win an expansion bid anyway... in which case this could economically be a good thing for the city as a whole. While a new soccer stadium would be nice, mixed used development on the jail site would be even better. Further, it would put Ford Field in use more dates of the year, and there wouldn't be another "stadium dead zone" downtown for a venue that is only used a couple dozen days a year.

We shall see....

[401don]

Very good points. MLS has also made it clear that they prefer a soccer only stadium, so this change COULD hurt Detroit's chances at winning an expansion bid. Will be interesting to see how this plays out, and I get the grass/turf argument as well.

Now, that all being said, there is also the possibility Detroit could still win an expansion bid anyway... in which case this could economically be a good thing for the city as a whole. While a new soccer stadium would be nice, mixed used development on the jail site would be even better. Further, it would put Ford Field in use more dates of the year, and there wouldn't be another "stadium dead zone" downtown for a venue that is only used a couple dozen days a year.

We shall see....

I have no doubt they spoke to the MLS people and got a clear answer that changing to Ford Field wouldn't hurt there bid in any way.

[Atticus]

I have no doubt they spoke to the MLS people and got a clear answer that changing to Ford Field wouldn't hurt there bid in any way.

Possibly. It is also possible that Dan Gilbert realized he could make a lot more $$ from a mixed use development on the jail site then he could from a soccer stadium, especially a soccer stadium that would face an uphill battle to get any public assistance to help pay for it.

It is also possible that there are still enough unknowns with the jail site that Gilbert and crew thought it would be better to pitch the expansion bid using Ford Field as a sure thing, than a potential jail site that could yet run into unforeseen problems.

Either way, I agree Detroit is in good shape compared to the competition. There are 4 new teams being awarded, two in December and two more in 2018. Looking at the other bids:

Saramento: Small market, but otherwise they have put together a great bid. They are so confident, they have already broke ground on their soccer specific stadium to have it ready by 2020. I would be shocked if they were not one of the two teams awarded in December.

Nashville: Probably the next strongest bid, and Detroit's top competitor for getting the other of the first two expansion spots. Nashville has public financing in place for a soccer specific stadium a few miles from their downtown. While also a smaller market, it is a growing city with no MLB competition. On the downside, some public officials are against the public funding for the stadium, and have threatened to derail the plan. It is also not likely the stadium could be ready for 2020 anyway, which could work in Detroit's favor.

Cincinnati: Great attendance for their minor league soccer team [[even better than DCFC). Stadium proposal hasn't gone anywhere though, and currently the plan is to continue playing in University of Cincinnati's football stadium until things can be figured out. Smaller market, MLB competition, and probably still too many unknowns with the stadium to get one of the first two teams.

St. Louis and San Diego- Both bids basically died when the public rejected funding for a new soccer only stadium.

Raleigh, Indy, and Charlotte- Initially placed bids, but nothing ever got off the ground.

Austin and San Antonio- Austin is likely getting a relocated Columbus Crew team in 2019. Given how close Austin is to San Antonio, San Antonio is probably out of the picture.

Tampa and Phoenix- Both larger market dark horses. No rich owner to back the bid, though they have patched together potential stadium plans that appear to be legit, but again no deep pockets to serve as collateral.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I am generally not pleased with Thursday's news. I am not shattered by it, though.

The 2 things I liked most about the Fail Jail stadium project were: 1) It would very possibly bring MLS to Detroit; and 2) Fail Jail would go away, to be replaced by something new and vibrant downtown.

The switch to Ford Field imperils the first goal, for sure. It doesn't kill Detroit's bid, but I think it genuinely hurts it. MLS has made clear- including Thursday- a strong preference for soccer-specific facilities. Additionally, I don't think any team plays on artificial turf in MLS. Prior to Thursday, Detroit was the clear front runner among the cities contending for an MLS team. We still have all the other assets we had before [[largest market in contention, excellent & proven ownership group with deep pockets, community interest, etc). But facilities are a real issue for MLS [[especially as it seeks to make the "Big 4" leagues in the "Big 5"). So this worries me. Hopefully we get it anyway.

The second goal [[GOAL!!!!!) is, I think, perhaps a little bit enhanced by the switch, however. With downtown's resurgence in activity & property values, Gilbert & Gores could very realistically make more money on putting other things there, instead of a stadium. More residents, more workers, more fun things to see & do. They will also have more space & time flexibility for designing and building there.

As for actually playing soccer at Ford Field: it'll work, but it will not quite be the same as playing outdoors. Soccer goes with grass as much as baseball. On the plus side. there will be more seats available. While I don't think we'd ever sell 65,000 seats, we could certainly sell more than 23,000 seats. And Ford Field is as close to intimate as an NFL stadium can get.

Fingers crossed! For what it's worth, I still think Detroit will get a team in the first round [[to be announced in December) or not at all. If MLS deems Ford Field to be acceptable, then we still have the strongest bid. If it isn't acceptable, then I think we wouldn't have much of a shot for the second round in 2 years.

[EGrant]

Great points, Mikey. I was a little disappointed that the team will be at Ford Field, and I do think this hurts the bid, but it does improve the usage at the jail site. Instead of a giant stadium that is hard to use on the 20 or so non-soccer game days, we will probably get a nice mixed-use development.

[DetroitSoldier]

Additionally, I don't think any team plays on artificial turf in MLS. Prior to Thursday, Detroit was the clear front runner among the cities contending for an MLS team. We still have all the other assets we had before [[largest market in contention, excellent & proven ownership group with deep pockets, community interest, etc). But facilities are a real issue for MLS [[especially as it seeks to make the "Big 4" leagues in the "Big 5"). So this worries me. Hopefully we get it anyway.

The second goal [[GOAL!!!!!) is, I think, perhaps a little bit enhanced by the switch, however. With downtown's resurgence in activity & property values, Gilbert & Gores could very realistically make more money on putting other things there, instead of a stadium. More residents, more workers, more fun things to see & do. They will also have more space & time flexibility for designing and building there.

As for actually playing soccer at Ford Field: it'll work, but it will not quite be the same as playing outdoors. Soccer goes with grass as much as baseball.

Seattle, Portland, Vancouver, Atlanta, Minnesota, New England [[off the top of my head) all play on artificial surfaces. The discussion about grass/turf is not as great as it used to be. The new turf in Portland and Seattle compares favorably to grass conditions, with the added benefit of withstanding their regular rainy spring seasons. The turf technology has improved significantly in the last 5 years.

[Atticus]

The other issue with the fail jail site is that to get a soccer stadium up and running by 2020, ground would need to get broken today. That would mean construction plans and finances [[w/ no public funding) would have all been in place by now. I don’t think that was the case, so it would be Ford Field in 2020 either way.

Frankly, with the Hudson block and Monroe block developments all intending to break ground over the next few months, a soccer stadium project added onto it was probably too much of a lift for Bedrock, both financially and logistically. So again, Ford Field it is and would be.

No question that this weakens their MLS bid, but the question is does it weaken it enough they won’t get a team?

[313rd]

Wishful thinking......Amazon HQ Campus to be built at Fail Jail Site....

[emu steve]

The other issue with the fail jail site is that to get a soccer stadium up and running by 2020, ground would need to get broken today. That would mean construction plans and finances [[w/ no public funding) would have all been in place by now. I don’t think that was the case, so it would be Ford Field in 2020 either way.

Frankly, with the Hudson block and Monroe block developments all intending to break ground over the next few months, a soccer stadium project added onto it was probably too much of a lift for Bedrock, both financially and logistically. So again, Ford Field it is and would be.

No question that this weakens their MLS bid, but the question is does it weaken it enough they won’t get a team?

Agree with all of your points. 2020 Detroit soccer would have been at Ford Field, regardless.

Assuming all goes well with MLS [[like will the ownership group plan to build a stadium within 5 years of being selected?) it does raise the possibility that a soccer stadium could be build behind the Fox or elsewhere downtown.

"Compromise" might be a dirty word in D.C., but having housing/office/retail at fail jail site and a soccer stadium behind the Fox isn't exactly a loser.

In a sense it could take care of TWO eye sores, i.e., fail jail and behind the Fox.

I never was 'opposed' to having a soccer stadium surrounding by tall buildings but it seemed convoluted to me. Outdoor stadiums should have plenty of open space around them which will not block sunlight. And I wouldn't want a tall building due west of the stadium to block the late afternoon sun.

[Zads07]

Detroit did not need another stadium, let alone an MLS team. After seeing what is happening with the Columbus Crew and the San Antonio bid, do people really think that the MLS would benefit the city of Detroit?

I'd much rather have a future MLS team play at Ford Field than have its own soccer stadium that could take away from prime real estate for mixed use projects.

[emu steve]

Not sure that Ford Field is/will be the perm. site for a MLS team.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I don't remember reading anything yesterday that said Ford Field was a placeholder for a future stadium. I think GG has decided- quite possibly correctly- 2 key points: they want the team downtown; a soccer stadium is now less lucrative than other developments downtown. Assuming they finalize the deal for Fail Jail, I am not even slightly worried that that won't be developed. GG have a great track record, the money, the ambition, and heck- why would they pay to relocate the criminal justice facilities just to own they aren't going to use?

If GG were going to build a stadium, I think they would do it at Fail Jail. There is, in my opinion, no reason to dedicate the resources to putting it behind the Fox as opposed to Fail Jail. If we get an MLS team, playing at Ford Field I think hurts a new stadium bid down the line: if it is drawing a big crowd, it would make sense to keep it in the larger NFL stadium. If it is not drawing a huge crowd, then why plunk down the money on a new stadium? Besides, I think with profitable development in every direction around the "hole behind the Fox", I think it is only a matter of [[short) time before other things start popping up there. And that reminds me: one of the reasons the other stadiums weren't built there [[IIRC) was that they Ilitches own a great deal- but not enough- of the land there. Assembling a large enough single parcel might prove even more difficult now than it did in years past.

I think Ford Field is where our team- if we get one- will play for the foreseeable future. While not perfect, that is not a bad thing.

[Scottathew]

Wishful thinking......Amazon HQ Campus to be built at Fail Jail Site....

My goodness would that not be awesome...

[swingline]

National soccer writer Paul Kennedy doesn't come to any conclusions as to whether the stadium switch hurts or helps the Detroit bid. He seems skeptical that Detroit can replicate the Atlanta United experience. https://www.socceramerica.com/public...n-process.html

[EastsideAl]

MLS soccer at Ford Field is a terrible idea. It is likely to be too much like the NASL Detroit Express playing at the Silverdome,for those old enough to remember that embarrassingly lackluster experience. Even if the new team is able to draw twice what the Express averaged, there will still be about 25,000 people rattling around in a more than half-empty stadium, watching soccer being played indoors on plastic.

On the other hand, if the city had a 20,000 or so seat outdoor soccer stadium, then it could be a great experience and a decent addition to our sports and entertainment options around here. I'm not a big fan of the sport myself, but I have attended games and I certainly remember the dreariness those old Express games [[used to pick up the discounted or free tickets they gave away to try to get a few more people to show up). But when I went to a game last year at Philadelphia's outdoor, 18,000 seat, soccer-only stadium, it was like a different sport. The place was packed, the crowd was excited and into the game, and the game was being played as it should be, outdoor and on real grass. The MLS has a little ways to go in terms of quality of play, but it was definitely a fun experience I'd be interested in repeating

With the foot-dragging on the jail site though, I can understand why Ford Field was the only viable option for pitching the league on putting a team here. But it really can't be the end option, and if we get a team but there is no deal on a soccer stadium soon, I can easily see the whole thing becoming a debacle for the city and for what seems to me to be an already over-expanding league.

[emu steve]

MLS soccer at Ford Field is a terrible idea. It is likely to be too much like the NASL Detroit Express playing at the Silverdome,for those old enough to remember that embarrassingly lackluster experience. Even if the new team is able to draw twice what the Express averaged, there will still be about 25,000 people rattling around in a more than half-empty stadium, watching soccer being played indoors on plastic.

On the other hand, if the city had a 20,000 or so seat outdoor soccer stadium, then it could be a great experience and a decent addition to our sports and entertainment options around here. I'm not a big fan of the sport myself, but I have attended games and I certainly remember the dreariness those old Express games [[used to pick up the discounted or free tickets they gave away to try to get a few more people to show up). But when I went to a game last year at Philadelphia's outdoor, 18,000 seat, soccer-only stadium, it was like a different sport. The place was packed, the crowd was excited and into the game, and the game was being played as it should be, outdoor and on real grass. The MLS has a little ways to go in terms of quality of play, but it was definitely a fun experience I'd be interested in repeating

With the foot-dragging on the jail site though, I can understand why Ford Field was the only viable option for pitching the league on putting a team here. But it really can't be the end option, and if we get a team but there is no deal on a soccer stadium soon, I can easily see the whole thing becoming a debacle for the city and for what seems to me to be an already over-expanding league.

I completely agree with Al's comments.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

EastsideAl, I understand your good points entirely, but I can't quite share your pessimism.

I agree that an outdoor, soccer-specific stadium would be the best place to see a game. Additionally, there are other events that could have been held there that won't fit well at Ford Field [[high school and college soccer tourneys; lacrosse & rugby games; outdoor arena concerts; women's pro soccer, if and when that returns). But I think MLS at Ford Field isn't going to be similar to soccer at the Silverdome at all. First off, I think the worst seat in the house at Ford Field is much closer to the action than a good seat at the Silverdome [[as a teenager, I once watched a Lions game on my portable TV- remember those?- from my seat because I could actually see the game). Also- and this is important- MLS is a much better product on the field than any of the fledgling organizations that existed in the past. The league is not yet profitable, but it's attendance, revenue and TV ratings are up every year. As has been discussed before in both this and other threads, there is ample reason to believe that we have the fan base to enthusiastically support an MLS franchise. DCFC's thousands of die-hard fans, strong attendance at various exhibition soccer games, high levels of youth soccer, etc. Also, I can see ticket-plan cross promotions with both the Lions and the Pistons.

Of course, if we get a team, ownership could always re-examine the question of where to play down the line. But keeping said team in central downtown in a new stadium has a real opportunity cost. Whatever acres are used for a stadium won't be used for something else. That was not an issue in years past, when large chunks of downtown were withered and abandoned. But that is not the case any longer.

I am glad things are coming to a head. Hopefully we are only weeks away from knowing. As I wrote above, I have a hunch we will get a first round franchise, or we won't get one at all. We are MLS's dream expansion market, except for the stadium situation. So if Ford Field isn't a deal-breaker, we should get a nod. If it, 2 years and more negotiation won't fix that.

Last thought for the night: If Gilbert-Gores-Ford wanted to be ballsy, they'd announce that a potential franchise would be called The Detroit Amazons.

[canuck]

EastsideAl, I understand your good points entirely, but I can't quite share your pessimism.

I agree that an outdoor, soccer-specific stadium would be the best place to see a game. Additionally, there are other events that could have been held there that won't fit well at Ford Field [[high school and college soccer tourneys; lacrosse & rugby games; outdoor arena concerts; women's pro soccer, if and when that returns). But I think MLS at Ford Field isn't going to be similar to soccer at the Silverdome at all. First off, I think the worst seat in the house at Ford Field is much closer to the action than a good seat at the Silverdome [[as a teenager, I once watched a Lions game on my portable TV- remember those?- from my seat because I could actually see the game). Also- and this is important- MLS is a much better product on the field than any of the fledgling organizations that existed in the past. The league is not yet profitable, but it's attendance, revenue and TV ratings are up every year. As has been discussed before in both this and other threads, there is ample reason to believe that we have the fan base to enthusiastically support an MLS franchise. DCFC's thousands of die-hard fans, strong attendance at various exhibition soccer games, high levels of youth soccer, etc. Also, I can see ticket-plan cross promotions with both the Lions and the Pistons.

Of course, if we get a team, ownership could always re-examine the question of where to play down the line. But keeping said team in central downtown in a new stadium has a real opportunity cost. Whatever acres are used for a stadium won't be used for something else. That was not an issue in years past, when large chunks of downtown were withered and abandoned. But that is not the case any longer.

I am glad things are coming to a head. Hopefully we are only weeks away from knowing. As I wrote above, I have a hunch we will get a first round franchise, or we won't get one at all. We are MLS's dream expansion market, except for the stadium situation. So if Ford Field isn't a deal-breaker, we should get a nod. If it, 2 years and more negotiation won't fix that.

Last thought for the night: If Gilbert-Gores-Ford wanted to be ballsy, they'd announce that a potential franchise would be called The Detroit Amazons.

You're right on target Brooklyn, Amazons for a guys' team would be ballsy to name it that way, sort of...

[313WX]

With the foot-dragging on the jail site though, I can understand why Ford Field was the only viable option for pitching the league on putting a team here.

^^^This is really what the last minute change boils down to.

Gilbert / Gores aren't stupid [[at least I don't think they are). Ford Field meets almost none of the requirements and/or preferences that the MLS has for Soccer Stadiums. That's why it wasn't seriously considered as an option before.

This is basically a "hail mary!" by them in light of pressure from Don Garber to hurry up so that selections can be made.

You can thank Wayne County if Detroit isn't selected for a MLS franchise.