City Club Apartments. Taking place of Stalter Hotel

[313WX]

It does seem that Detroit's sheer size is always surprising to people not from here...or even those who live here. Goes a long way to getting people to understand the challenges when they understand insanely large empty spaces.

Detroit's sheer size is only surprising because of how much of the city is vacant.

You don't get the same responses from people when it comes to Philadelphia, which is also just as big in area.

[davewindsor]

Mikey... you need to remember that this is a HISTORIC DISTRICT... different rules apply than elsewhere. Granted those may be overruled... but you cannot expect someone who wants to build just whatever they want in such a district should always get the right to do so...

Why should it matter if it's in a "historic district" if the mayor backs it? Where's the precedent? You can't go to court and get an injunction to stop a glass building from being built on a parking lot because it's in a "historic district".

Take a look at Toronto, which is notorious for sticking glass buildings in historic areas. In the Historic Distillery District, which is comprised of more than 40 heritage buildings and 10 streets, and is the largest collection of Victorian-era industrial architecture in North America, Toronto allowed three ugly ass glass towers to be built. And don't get me started on that POS the Crystal they allowed protruding out of the historic ROM.

An area being called a "Historic District" doesn't really mean anything anymore--it's just a mumbo jumbo catch phrase for tourists and an excuse for politicians to stop a development if it's done by their political enemies.

[Gistok]

Not really sure what the implications of the Statler Block being in a historic district really are. However, when Mike Ilitch wanted to tear down the Fine Arts Building [[in this same historic district) on the north side of Grand Circus Park... he was only allowed to tear down the collapsing wood beam structure behind the facade. The Detroit Historic Commission forced him to salvage the facade, strange as that may seem.

This is why I'm not at all sure of the ramifications of this new build. If anyone had the free will to do what they wanted, Ilitch would have been at the head of the list.

There may be nothing to stop or alter the Statler block development plans. But that chapter still has to play itself out.

[Tiberius]

Hi everyone, I'm Tiberius. I stumbled upon this website called Detroityes.com and was amazed of photos of Detroit's history and comments. I hope to share your ideals with anyone.

[swingline]

Why should it matter if it's in a "historic district" if the mayor backs it? Where's the precedent? You can't go to court and get an injunction to stop a glass building from being built on a parking lot because it's in a "historic district".

Take a look at Toronto, which is notorious for sticking glass buildings in historic areas. In the Historic Distillery District, which is comprised of more than 40 heritage buildings and 10 streets, and is the largest collection of Victorian-era industrial architecture in North America, Toronto allowed three ugly ass glass towers to be built. And don't get me started on that POS the Crystal they allowed protruding out of the historic ROM.

An area being called a "Historic District" doesn't really mean anything anymore--it's just a mumbo jumbo catch phrase for tourists and an excuse for politicians to stop a development if it's done by their political enemies.

DW, the designation is far more than a mumbo jumbo catch phrase. Grand Circus Park is designated as a historic district pursuant to a City of Detroit ordinance and a statewide statute enacted by the Michigan legislature. These laws regulate both the exterior alteration of existing buildings located within the district boundaries as well as new construction proposed in the district. The Historic District Commission is the regulatory body vested with the approval authority over this kind of work.

The creation of locally designated historic districts under these laws for the past 40 years has been a huge success. The existence of this regulatory protection against unnecessary demolition and inappropriate exterior "modernizations" is the primary reason why these districts are the most stable and valuable neighborhoods in every Michigan city created during the early 20th century or before.

GCP also happens to be listed on the National Register of Historic Places, but that designation doesn't trigger any regulation of design standards or protection from demolition.

[davewindsor]

DW, the designation is far more than a mumbo jumbo catch phrase. Grand Circus Park is designated as a historic district pursuant to a City of Detroit ordinance and a statewide statute enacted by the Michigan legislature. These laws regulate both the exterior alteration of existing buildings located within the district boundaries as well as new construction proposed in the district. The Historic District Commission is the regulatory body vested with the approval authority over this kind of work.

The creation of locally designated historic districts under these laws for the past 40 years has been a huge success. The existence of this regulatory protection against unnecessary demolition and inappropriate exterior "modernizations" is the primary reason why these districts are the most stable and valuable neighborhoods in every Michigan city created during the early 20th century or before.

GCP also happens to be listed on the National Register of Historic Places, but that designation doesn't trigger any regulation of design standards or protection from demolition.

The creation of locally designated historic districts has been a huge success in Detroit?? The Historic Detroit Commission works for the Mayor's Office, not the other way around. The Mayor openly stated he's taking a hands on approach to fast track this development. It will happen and be fast tracked unless there's financing issues with the developer. Please provide us with an example in Detroit of where the Historic Detroit Commission stopped the Mayor's Office with a development in a historic district designation if you say the designations have been a huge success in stopping development backed by the Mayor's office. Mayor Kwame wanted the Statler demolished and it was demolished. Who stopped the Mayor?? No one because they can't. The Illitch facade is there because the previous Mayor wanted to show Illitch who's the boss. A historic designation in this city means jack nothing. It's whatever the Mayor wants that happens.

[EastsideAl]

And before the Statler there was this:



http://www.shorpy.com/node/17193
Governor John J. Bagley home/Michigan Conservatory of Music

Perhaps backwards is sometimes better...

[animatedmartian]

^And I wonder if residents and businessowners around GCP thought that these new massively developed high-rises were out of place at the time.

[animatedmartian]

I just thought about this, but could it be possible that Illitch had a hand in Statler City Apartment's height? The site does fall under Illitch's entertainment district and I'm sure he'd want to limit as many freebie views into Comerica Park as he can before putting up a spite fence. A residential tower at a height similar to Stalter would have clear views into Comerica. It's far-fetched but...

[msamslex]

Hi everyone, I'm Tiberius. I stumbled upon this website called Detroityes.com and was amazed of photos of Detroit's history and comments. I hope to share your ideals with anyone.

Welcome to Dyes Tiberius. Jump in at anytime.

[Gistok]

I just thought about this, but could it be possible that Illitch had a hand in Statler City Apartment's height? The site does fall under Illitch's entertainment district and I'm sure he'd want to limit as many freebie views into Comerica Park as he can before putting up a spite fence. A residential tower at a height similar to Stalter would have clear views into Comerica. It's far-fetched but...

I really don't think this is the case... from the Statler block the poor sightlines are not going to give you anything besides upper left field. The best viewing of the field is from the Detroit Athletic Club.

One thing about this only being 6 floors... if Southfield can put up high rise apartment towers 3 or 4 times the height of this development... are some of you saying that even with the high demand for residential that Detroit still can't compete with Southfield and Troy for at least midrise??

[animatedmartian]

Or even Royal Oak for that matter. Royal Oak is building 6 floor apartments by the day.

But actually, there's a lot of things about Detroit that limits a lot of developments.

1) Financials; the cost to build in Detroit is significantly higher than something equivalent in the suburbs [[as is the case in many cities, but seems disproportionate in Detroit)
2) Red tape; Detroit seems to have more unnecessary layers of bureaucracy than anywhere else which slows the process of development
3) Services and safety; while it's not as big as deal as you'd think, it's still a factor in whether or not anyone moves into the development once it's completed. That of itself goes back into the financial factor because lenders are going to want to see concrete evidence that there is demand in Detroit [[usually in the form of rising rents).

In the end, it all point to the inefficiency of our city government. Hopefully, Duggan does find a way to clean up the process and get more development through the pipelines.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Gistok, demand is strong right now downtown. But I think we forget several things in wanting much larger developments. First, downtown Detroit has A LOT of space to fill in. Having many taller new developments [[commercial or residential) means it will take longer to fill in the miles and miles of gaps around town. Second, Detroit ain't Manhattan. The demand is there, but it is not endless. I think most developments will be bite-sized pieces, not grandiose new structures. Third, such smaller-scale buildings will take less time to design, finance, build and fill up. Fourth, there are many more proposed or in-the-weeks residential in and around downtown with which this will compete. At least many hundreds of units, if not more. Fifth, there is a lesson in the economic woes of the Book-Cadillac people. Build too big or too fancy and the numbers might never work out [[in the BC's case, of course, it was a reno, so it couldn't really be scaled down). The failure of a "big project" could be highly problematic, making it harder to finance and build other projects. Imagine if the Fail Jail were a condo complex, it got half done, and no one could afford to finish it. The county woudn't pay to have it torn down. We'd be stuck with Bloomfield Park downtown.

Lastly, I got a good chuckle out of the "Ilitch Conspiracy" noted above. First, except perhaps from DAC building, you can't really watch and follow a game from buildings around CoPa. You can watch the crowd and see a game going on, perhaps, but you certainly couldn't see who's up, or tell what a call was. Second, you would have such an abstract view from the Statler site anyway, even if it were taller. I think maybe I'll start a thread entitled "Ilitch Conspiracies" and everyone can write in their own evil-doing theories and rumors they've heard. Why just today I heard that Dan Gilbert is just a front for Olympia, and all the buildings he's bought will be turned into surface parking. He also has a now-secret pact with the city to start fracking on the JLA site as soon as it's torn down. And he will use the oil money to remove the city's remaining few street lights. The bastard!

[313WX]

And before the Statler there was this:



http://www.shorpy.com/node/17193
Governor John J. Bagley home/Michigan Conservatory of Music

Perhaps backwards is sometimes better...

Why not. Detroit's population, after all, is moving backward to early 1900s levels anyway.

[animatedmartian]

I think maybe I'll start a thread entitled "Ilitch Conspiracies" and everyone can write in their own evil-doing theories and rumors they've heard. Why just today I heard that Dan Gilbert is just a front for Olympia, and all the buildings he's bought will be turned into surface parking. He also has a now-secret pact with the city to start fracking on the JLA site as soon as it's torn down. And he will use the oil money to remove the city's remaining few street lights. The bastard!

It could be worse. Gilbert could just be a front for Illitch so he can put a Little Ceasers on every corner downtown!

[swingline]

The creation of locally designated historic districts has been a huge success in Detroit??

DW, not sure why you would question this. Boston Edison, Indian Village, Atkinson Avenue, Woodbridge, Corktown, Arden Park, Berry Subdivision, East Ferry, Hubbard Farms, West Village, Oakman Boulevard, West Canfield and several other neighborhoods would only exist as shells of their current conditions but for the legal protections afforded by Detroit's Historic District ordinance. Sherwood Forest and Palmer Woods, two neighborhoods that never suffered from significant deterioration have been designated in the recent past and will enjoy the benefits from now on. With hardly any exception other than Downtown/Midtown/Riverfront condos, these neighborhoods are the most valuable in the city. This pattern has been repeated in locally designated historic districts around the state. Yes, most would define that as a huge success.

Also, if you think that projects downtown such as the Kales, Book Cadillac, Broderick Tower, Lofts @ Woodward Center and Merchants Row would have occurred without the state historic rehabilitation tax credits made available through local historic designation, you're mistaken. Threadjack alert: . . . Governor Snyder's termination of this tax credit program was one of his administrations biggest missteps. The program leveraged hundreds of millions of dollars in development projects in urban centers across the state. Even though the federal tax credit program still exists [[although Dave Camp wants to eliminate that as well), historic rehabilitation projects in Michigan have slowed to a trickle during the Snyder administration.

The Historic Detroit Commission works for the Mayor's Office, not the other way around.

Not true. The members may be mayoral appointees but the HDC is an independent body with adjudicative authority that can only be appealed to a statewide panel and then to the Michigan courts. The mayor can't overrule an HDC decision. Nobody would claim that political pressure is totally absent from the body, and the knowledge and commitment of some of the appointees over the years could have been better, but they have a mandate to follow the ordinance and state law and most of the commission members take that obligation seriously.

The Mayor openly stated he's taking a hands on approach to fast track this development. It will happen and be fast tracked unless there's financing issues with the developer. Please provide us with an example in Detroit of where the Historic Detroit Commission stopped the Mayor's Office with a development in a historic district designation if you say the designations have been a huge success in stopping development backed by the Mayor's office. Mayor Kwame wanted the Statler demolished and it was demolished. Who stopped the Mayor?? No one because they can't. The Illitch facade is there because the previous Mayor wanted to show Illitch who's the boss. A historic designation in this city means jack nothing. It's whatever the Mayor wants that happens.

Presumably, this comment is directed at developments taking place in locally designated commercial districts downtown. You've noticeably created a strawman here though. Nobody claimed that historic designation has "stopp[ed] development backed by the Mayor's office." In fact, this is the first new construction project proposed for a locally designated historic district in the CBD. Yes, the Mayor's office has sought and obtained a handful of high profile demolitions in locally designated downtown historic districts over the years. This isn't a demolition project though. The HDC has an ordinance, National Park Service standards and hopefully a rudimentary knowledge of good design principles; not too mention good common sense.

I'm not claiming that this GCP site needs some kind of 25 story tower [[or larger) with several hundred apartment units. That's clearly not feasible in this economy and the site wouldn't feasibly accommodate the parking needs anyway. Properly scaled though to comply with the ordinance standards for the district, not to mention good placemaking principles, I suggest that site should have at least 10-12 stories fronting Grand Circus Park.

[animatedmartian]

Here are some higher resolution versions of the renderings.

http://www.hellyeahdetroit.com/2014/...e-development/

[SpartanDawg]

Here are some higher resolution versions of the renderings.

http://www.hellyeahdetroit.com/2014/...e-development/

actually looks like there's 7 stories from this rendering

[Lowell]

I would think that having apartments by the people mover, at eye-level or lower, would be hard to sell. Forget the obstructed view, who wants the world staring into your space? And while it is not too loud, it still makes a lot of noise.

[Gistok]

I would think that having apartments by the people mover, at eye-level or lower, would be hard to sell. Forget the obstructed view, who wants the world staring into your space? And while it is not too loud, it still makes a lot of noise.

BINGO!!

And look at the level that the PM is at GCP... in the David Whitney Building the ground floor is very tall... the PM station is 6 steps up from the 2nd floor. So in these planned apartments... the PM track will likely be obstructing about the 3rd floor. So floors 2, 3 and 4 will likely have some sort of PM obstruction or "viewing" all along Park Ave. and Bagley Ave. sides.

... and those squeaks that the PM cars make when they go around curves... it's annoying as hell inside the cars. Imagine owning an apartment in this building where every 8 minutes the squealing noise happens like clockwork... that's quite an incentive to leave your windows closed!

[animatedmartian]

I would think that having apartments by the people mover, at eye-level or lower, would be hard to sell. Forget the obstructed view, who wants the world staring into your space? And while it is not too loud, it still makes a lot of noise.

Living next to track train tracks is nothing new in urban living. Suburbanites in Detroit might not be used to it, but many people in Chicago and NYC will gladly accept such an apartment if the price is right. For most people, it just becomes apart of the background noise.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Like animatedmartian noted, it is not at all unusual to live adjacent to public transit. And I must note that the PM is much, much quieter than a NYC subway train, and it does not operate 24/7. Yes, the lower units will undoubtedly rent for less than the higher units, which pretty much makes it like any other urban apartment building. I have a hunch that the PM's proximity to the development is not a surprise to the developers. I bet they took it into account in their planning, both of design and financing. Having lived 5 years between the Gowanus expressway and a firehouse in an industrial neighborhood in Brooklyn, the PM would need to derail to bother me.

[KJ5]

The Blues Brothers lived right next to the L train in Chicago and they were absolutely cool with it!

[davewindsor]

DW, not sure why you would question this. Boston Edison, Indian Village, Atkinson Avenue, Woodbridge, Corktown, Arden Park, Berry Subdivision, East Ferry, Hubbard Farms, West Village, Oakman Boulevard, West Canfield and several other neighborhoods would only exist as shells of their current conditions but for the legal protections afforded by Detroit's Historic District ordinance. Sherwood Forest and Palmer Woods, two neighborhoods that never suffered from significant deterioration have been designated in the recent past and will enjoy the benefits from now on. With hardly any exception other than Downtown/Midtown/Riverfront condos, these neighborhoods are the most valuable in the city. This pattern has been repeated in locally designated historic districts around the state. Yes, most would define that as a huge success.

Also, if you think that projects downtown such as the Kales, Book Cadillac, Broderick Tower, Lofts @ Woodward Center and Merchants Row would have occurred without the state historic rehabilitation tax credits made available through local historic designation, you're mistaken. Threadjack alert: . . . Governor Snyder's termination of this tax credit program was one of his administrations biggest missteps. The program leveraged hundreds of millions of dollars in development projects in urban centers across the state. Even though the federal tax credit program still exists [[although Dave Camp wants to eliminate that as well), historic rehabilitation projects in Michigan have slowed to a trickle during the Snyder administration.

What success?? You're way off topic. You haven't seen much new construction there because it isn't profitable so developers have to rely on historic tax credits and other subsidies to rehab what already exists there if they want to make money. You think the rehabilitation of boarded up apartment buildings in the Palmer Park Historic District would have occurred without historic tax credits and a ridiculous amount of government aid? What planet are you from? Have a look at the billboard in front of the La Vogue if you want to see all the government subsidies it got.

The Book Cadillac would never have been rehabbed if it weren't for all the tax credits, municipal pension fund loans and government aid. As I recall, it was a no money down deal for that Cleveland developer. The city even knocked down the decrepit historic Lafayette Tower in front of it for free as another bonus for Ferchill because it was interfering with Ferchill's views from the Book Cadillac. Oh, and let's not forget the historic Board of Trade tower getting knocked down for a parking garage for the Book Cadillac. As I recall, it was in much better shape than the Lafayette. Why did they have to knock down both historic towers again?

Cutting the historic tax credits is probably why rehabbing the Book Tower is a fail. Plus, I don't call the Brush Park Historic District much of a success. Sure, several historic tax credit rehabs but also plenty of demolition by neglect, plenty of boarded up historic buildings and plenty of vacant lots.

Not true. The members may be mayoral appointees but the HDC is an independent body with adjudicative authority that can only be appealed to a statewide panel and then to the Michigan courts. The mayor can't overrule an HDC decision. Nobody would claim that political pressure is totally absent from the body, and the knowledge and commitment of some of the appointees over the years could have been better, but they have a mandate to follow the ordinance and state law and most of the commission members take that obligation seriously.

Please continue to mix theory with reality. I know what the HDC claims on their website. But, it's also created by municipal ordinance with mayoral appointees. The HDC might claim they are an independent body, but it's just an illusion. Like I asked earlier, show me an example in Detroit where the HDC stopped the mayor's agenda in a historic district. Prove it. You haven't. You just continue to recant theory. Actions speak louder than words. You only need to look at all the demolitions of historic buildings in this city to know their independence from the mayor's agenda is a complete load of crap.

Presumably, this comment is directed at developments taking place in locally designated commercial districts downtown. You've noticeably created a strawman here though. Nobody claimed that historic designation has "stopp[ed] development backed by the Mayor's office." In fact, this is the first new construction project proposed for a locally designated historic district in the CBD. Yes, the Mayor's office has sought and obtained a handful of high profile demolitions in locally designated downtown historic districts over the years. This isn't a demolition project though. The HDC has an ordinance, National Park Service standards and hopefully a rudimentary knowledge of good design principles; not too mention good common sense.

It's not a straw man. And, it doesn't matter if it's a demolition or development. You're claiming the HDC is an independent body. They're not because they didn't stop the mayor's agenda. The mayor wanted the Statler gone to make downtown look pretty for the Superbowl. He got his wish. Where was the HDC then? Yeah, some independence...

I'm not claiming that this GCP site needs some kind of 25 story tower [[or larger) with several hundred apartment units. That's clearly not feasible in this economy and the site wouldn't feasibly accommodate the parking needs anyway. Properly scaled though to comply with the ordinance standards for the district, not to mention good placemaking principles, I suggest that site should have at least 10-12 stories fronting Grand Circus Park.

Neither am I saying it needs a 25 storey tower or larger. My point is that the HDC is not going to get in the way of the mayor's agenda whatever it may be. Their independence is just an illusion.

[SunnySideAnimationsph]

...I stumbled upon this website called Detroityes.com and was amazed of photos of Detroit's history and comments...

Hi Tiberius. Welcome. I found this place looking for some old photos too.

Hope you find what you're looking for here.