State spends millions on a project. Scrappers immediately cannibalize it.

**coracle** · February-25-14, 05:19 PM

"To blame this particular issue on anything other that whoever didn't take into account the environment of the project is kinda insane."

Bull Shit!

**Scottathew** · February-25-14, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

Just because it might be more likely that someone might steal the park bench in Brighton than Birmingham doesn't mean you only put park benches in Birmingham. Chain the damn benches down when they need it and move on. Again, this is not brain surgery.

At the same time it could be said that it's not brain surgery to spend within your budget, not make outrageous pension commitments and then drastically under fund them, and it's not brain surgery to have a police force that can help protect government investments.

M-DOT most certainly will need to take this into design consideration, but Detroit needs to fix this situation so that crime doesn't happen with impunity within the city borders.

**ABetterDetroit** · February-25-14, 06:05 PM

[QUOTE=48307;424370]
M-DOT most certainly will need to take this into design consideration, but Detroit needs to fix this situation so that crime doesn't happen with impunity within the city borders.[/QUOTE

Crime happens everyday everywhere at all levels.

One only has to look at the seizure of the finacial markets of 2008 to find your "impunity". Who was prosecuted? Who went to jail?

The sooner Detroit quits being the bastard step child for this problem the sooner people who give a damn can fix it.

**coracle** · February-25-14, 06:20 PM

"Crime happens everyday everywhere at all levels"

See comment in Post #26

**Scottathew** · February-25-14, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

One only has to look at the seizure of the finacial markets of 2008 to find your "impunity". Who was prosecuted? Who went to jail?

The sooner Detroit quits being the bastard step child for this problem the sooner people who give a damn can fix it.

So Detroit never has to fix any of its problems because bankers got away with a lot of stuff in 2008? Or is there a chance that it's completely off-subject?

People do give a damn, M-DOT invests millions in Detroit, and Detroit let it all go to waste because it cannot function. But I suppose we can continue to hate M-DOT for daring to invest in Detroit without ghetto-proofing the investment.

Lansing is fixing many of Detroit's problems, but is being hated for it, because people would rather have less police and firefighters than reduce pension benefits and other tough decisions that require putting your big-boy pants on.

So to recap:

People hate M-DOT because scrappers ruined a three million dollar investment.
People blame "everyone else" for not fixing Detroit's problems.
People get mad when Lansing steps in and fixes the problems.

No matter what the outside world does, some [[but not all) people in Detroit speak out against it.

That's why Detroit needs to fix Detroit.

I hope the new lighting project that the city is running doesn't have these same issues.

**ABetterDetroit** · February-25-14, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by coracle

"To blame this particular issue on anything other that whoever didn't take into account the environment of the project is kinda insane."

Bull Shit!

Lets see, who can we blame besides the idiots who designed a lighting system that could be stripped of its copper wire immediatly in a high metal theft environment? I know the thieves! We can't possibly out smart them! They are just to brilliant and relentless for the rest of us... Damn it

**ABetterDetroit** · February-25-14, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by 48307

So Detroit never has to fix any of its problems because bankers got away with a lot of stuff in 2008?

.

Where exactly does it say "Detroit never has to fix any of it's problems"?

The point was shit happens every day and people get away with it. 2008 was an illustration of that point, nothing more. Government failure is common at all levels. That fact never means that we stop trying to improve it.

**Cliffy** · February-25-14, 10:33 PM

Nobody wants to invest in Detroit because of this shit. Every damn thing has to be either stolen or burned down. Not even in the worst of worst of third world countries do people act like this. Speaks a lot for the people that live in Detroit. Also speaks a lot for the people on hear blaming MDOT for not tying and welding everything down.

**jt1** · February-25-14, 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by Cliffy

Speaks a lot for the people that live in Detroit.

Funny, in one thread you are bitching about how we are a bunch of compassion-less assholes over pensions and in this thread you choose to ignore the fact that the vast majority of the people in the city are victimized by the crooks and it is our fault.

Funny how your compassion changes if it impacts you.

**ABetterDetroit** · February-26-14, 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by Cliffy

Nobody wants to invest in Detroit because of this shit. Every damn thing has to be either stolen or burned down. Not even in the worst of worst of third world countries do people act like this. Speaks a lot for the people that live in Detroit. Also speaks a lot for the people on hear blaming MDOT for not tying and welding everything down.

MDOT not doing their jobs correctly is incompetence. Problems that arise immediately with any capital expenditure falls under a "foreseeable" issue and reflects incompetence on the planning side of the capital improvement program when it becomes a issue.

The next thing that happens is the problem is corrected with a competent party, the contract is made good hopefully guaranteeing future contracts and making sure the retainer clears, and the whole project isn't litigated.

Also appropriate action is required on the party that fucked up the project to stop this kind of thing from happening again. Just a small lesson in how the real world works when it's not government planning the project on their own.

**coracle** · February-26-14, 06:21 AM

Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

Lets see, who can we blame besides the idiots who designed a lighting system that could be stripped of its copper wire immediatly in a high metal theft environment? I know the thieves! We can't possibly out smart them! They are just to brilliant and relentless for the rest of us... Damn it

More Bull Shit!!!!

**Gistok** · February-26-14, 08:07 AM

Let's see... when motorists were being killed by hood rats dropping bowling balls, bricks and rocks onto the freeway from overpasses... MDOT took appropriate measures, and put in new bridge fencing that included heavy gauge chain link, made them very tall, and curved inward at the top. Problem solved!!

When MDOT relocated the steetlights from the median to the side of the roadway... it made maintenance of them easier... problem solved!!

...well not really... it created another whole new set of problems. Coracle... what part of that don't you undertand?

**DetroitPlanner** · February-26-14, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

MDOT not doing their jobs correctly is incompetence. Problems that arise immediately with any capital expenditure falls under a "foreseeable" issue and reflects incompetence on the planning side of the capital improvement program when it becomes a issue.

Seriously? Is this sarcasm? The planned life of a good assumes that it is not stolen or vandalized. Does MDOT need to have to factor in that things that are not stolen elsewhere will be stolen because it is in Detroit?

The real shame here is that MDOT spends a lot more on replacing, painting, or fixing things that have not gone bad during a natural life cycle. That is money that the theives are stealing from everybody as that equates to more potholes, bent rims, tires, suspension problems, and less money for quality of life improvements like bike paths, streetscapes, or landscapes.

**RO_Resident** · February-26-14, 10:08 AM

MDOT paints some lot of their fencing to prevent scrapping. It looks really ugly, but the scrap yards know not to accept the fencing if it has tiger stripes.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4143...dhBjRUSAzw!2e0

**Scottathew** · February-26-14, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

MDOT not doing their jobs correctly is incompetence. Problems that arise immediately with any capital expenditure falls under a "foreseeable" issue and reflects incompetence on the planning side of the capital improvement program when it becomes a issue.

Yeah, M-DOT needs to fix the problem. When is M-DOT going to balance Detroit's budget, get corruption and inefficiencies out of DPD, make residents report copper thefts, and make the police respond in a timely manner.

I do agree M-DOT needs to change their design, but the biggest issue is Detroit, not M-DOT.

**Honky Tonk** · February-26-14, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by RO_Resident

MDOT paints some lot of their fencing to prevent scrapping. It looks really ugly, but the scrap yards know not to accept the fencing if it has tiger stripes.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4143...dhBjRUSAzw!2e0

Again, this is all MDOT's fault. Why didn't they use plastic, or wooden fences to address the scrapping problem in Detroit? Detroit scrappers? Why they're just poor unfortunates working desperately to put food on the table for their starving chillen.

**GP For Life** · February-26-14, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Again, this is all MDOT's fault. Why didn't they use plastic, or wooden fences to address the scrapping problem in Detroit? Detroit scrappers? Why they're just poor unfortunates working desperately to put food on the table for their starving chillen.

This mentality is why people who aren't legally obligated to invest in Detroit, don't invest in Detroit. Even though, the cost of living in Detroit is so low that driving around and picking up pieces of metal for pennies a pound is a viable business model for some.

Shoot the scrappers then hang them from the light poles.

**brizee** · February-26-14, 10:57 AM

We can blame the scrappers for doing what they do. Of course they're CRIMINALS, and I find it's not too fruitful to point fingers at and shame people commiting crime because they don't give a shit. And they're gonna do it anyway.

OR

We can blame the state legislators who sit with their thumbs up their ass while city residents, suburban residents, businesses, cops and their fellow reps practically BEG them to pass and not water down a ready made anti scrapping package. The ONLY people fighting this are the scrap yards who profit the most off of this.

Take the profit motive out of it. Scrappers can rip up all the metal they want, when they get no money for it or it's actually held long enough, along with their picture, for authorities to actually hand out some painful time things will gradually.

Right now it's like screaming at a baby or a dog for eating the cookies and raw steak you left on the floor. It might make you feel better but it doesn't really solve the problem at hand does it?

**Honky Tonk** · February-26-14, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by brizee

We can blame the scrappers for doing what they do. Of course they're CRIMINALS, and I find it's not too fruitful to point fingers at and shame people commiting crime because they don't give a shit. And they're gonna do it anyway.

OR

We can blame the state legislators who sit with their thumbs up their ass while city residents, suburban residents, businesses, cops and their fellow reps practically BEG them to pass and not water down a ready made anti scrapping package. The ONLY people fighting this are the scrap yards who profit the most off of this.

Take the profit motive out of it. Scrappers can rip up all the metal they want, when they get no money for it or it's actually held long enough, along with their picture, for authorities to actually hand out some painful time things will gradually.

Right now it's like screaming at a baby or a dog for eating the cookies and raw steak you left on the floor. It might make you feel better but it doesn't really solve the problem at hand does it?

I see and agree with your point about passing a law. It's desperately needed. The law will only will only make a difference, and be as good as the enforcement, though.

**compn** · February-26-14, 01:51 PM

wonder how many state legislator families own scrap yards?

**ABetterDetroit** · February-26-14, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

I see and agree with your point about passing a law. It's desperately needed. The law will only will only make a difference, and be as good as the enforcement, though.

100% agreed.
Laws are needed but have to be enforced or they are just paper. It will not discount the fact that thieves steal value wherever It's assesable or there would be no need for vaults in banks or locks on the door for that matter.

**jt1** · February-26-14, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by compn

wonder how many state legislator families own scrap yards?

I think we should get the addresses of all those that keep voting against this and go chop off their catalytic converters in the middle of the night

**Honky Tonk** · February-26-14, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by jt1

I think we should get the addresses of all those that keep voting against this and go chop off their catalytic converters in the middle of the night

To what end? They'll just buy new cars.

**coracle** · February-26-14, 04:10 PM

Why should Scrap Yard Operators have the responsibility, and carry the cost, of policing the Scrappers? They are in business to make a profit and pay the taxes that pay for the Police in the Public Sector to arrest the Scrappers. If the police can't do it the City can ask the businesses if they'll do it for a profit. Alternatively put a Police rep in every Scrap Yard and pay for the office space and the inconvenience.

**jt1** · February-26-14, 04:19 PM

I agree Coracle. In the same vein, bars should not be responsible for over-serving their patrons. We should have an officer in every bar giving breathalyzers.

Grocery stores should not be responsible for removing expired food, the FDA should have an employee at every grocery store to ensure that the old meat is removed from the shelves.

Pawn shops should not have to track goods that are pawned, we should have an officer there interviewing every person pawing something.

You've convinced me.