Monumental effort to tear down blight would improve neighborhoods and Detroit's image

[compn]

One idea would be to legitimize and license scrappers. Pay the unemployed to dismantle smaller structures. I don't know how feasible that would actually be, though.

at a rate of $5000 per demolished home, thats about who you will get to work on it. would you attempt to demolish a home for $5k ? i dont even know how those numbers work. you'd think insurance, equipment, dumpster/dump and employees would be more than $5000. [[disabling of gas and electricity is a seperate cost).

[Honky Tonk]

at a rate of $5000 per demolished home, thats about who you will get to work on it. would you attempt to demolish a home for $5k ? i dont even know how those numbers work. you'd think insurance, equipment, dumpster/dump and employees would be more than $5000. [[disabling of gas and electricity is a seperate cost).

I know where you're coming from, but I actually watched a Father and Son team do it when I lived Downriver. [[a small 2 story house, not a 36 unit building) My initial thought was "you've got to be kidding". They did it by hand, [[almost) and had it done in 3 days. To this day I think about it. Changed my perspective on things. The problem is some of these numbers they're coming up with, are put together by beaurocrats, and not people doing the work.

[compn]

The whole idea of the plan of adjustment is that we won't be "$18B in the hole" afterward. That is a major change all by itself.

i'm not sure how far in the hole detroit will still be after the bankruptcy. if the 30% cuts to pensions and bond holders are correct, lets say 30% cut of debt across the board, that would be $6B , taking detroit to $12B in debt. right?

there is very little in the plan to stop detroit from bleeding money. theres a lot of small bandaids. theres a bunch of ideas that will long-term make the city lose money [[selling of the water dept is one of them).

a post by sehender1, way back in 2010. quite a good guess i'd say:

The question I think we have to ask is whether there are alternatives to selling DWSD that would have as big an immediate impact on the city's finances, with potential [[if the deal is structured right) to aid long-term stability.
If there aren't, it won't matter: DWSD will get sold anyway.. under emergent conditions by an imposed overseer who might not maximize the deal for the city's long-term benefit the way the mayor and city council might be able to now..

[jt1]

i'm not sure how far in the hole detroit will still be after the bankruptcy. if the 30% cuts to pensions and bond holders are correct, lets say 30% cut of debt across the board, that would be $6B , taking detroit to $12B in debt. right?

there is very little in the plan to stop detroit from bleeding money. theres a lot of small bandaids. theres a bunch of ideas that will long-term make the city lose money [[selling of the water dept is one of them).

a post by sehender1, way back in 2010. quite a good guess i'd say:

Your numbers are incorrect. The 18B is both debt and future obligations as well as 6B for DWSD.

The 6B for DWSD is backed by water revenue which brings the total down to 12B. Part of that is future health care costs which are being cut pretty heavily as retirees will be shifted to Medicaid or buying insurance in the open market with a nominal stipend from the city. I'm guessing [[and don't know the actual numbers) that is about half of the 12B remaining so the debt load of the 6B [[or whatever the actual is) gets reduced to 30 cents on the dollar [[rough guess) and the healthcare obligations are dropped significantly.

[313WX]

Your numbers are incorrect. The 18B is both debt and future obligations as well as 6B for DWSD.

The 6B for DWSD is backed by water revenue which brings the total down to 12B. Part of that is future health care costs which are being cut pretty heavily as retirees will be shifted to Medicaid or buying insurance in the open market with a nominal stipend from the city. I'm guessing [[and don't know the actual numbers) that is about half of the 12B remaining so the debt load of the 6B [[or whatever the actual is) gets reduced to 30 cents on the dollar [[rough guess) and the healthcare obligations are dropped significantly.

Speaking of the DWSD, my understanding is that Orr still wokring on spinning that off into an independent regional authority.

As far its bonds, will that $6B in debt also be spun off into the authority, or will Detroit keep those obligations?

[jt1]

Speaking of the DWSD, my understanding is that Orr still wokring on spinning that off into an independent regional authority.

As far its bonds, will that $6B in debt also be spun off into the authority, or will Detroit keep those obligations?

The debt would go to the authority as they are backed by the revenues which would be collected by/owed to the managing authority.

Legacy costs [[pension and Healthcare) however may stay with the city. Not sure on that one but if it does it certainly seems like the city better get enough revenue from the authority to cover those costs.

[GUSHI]

Detroit is very resonable in price. Public Transportation is available, who needs a car, there are buses. 10 k for a roof, I'm not talking about a house in indian village. Duplex are available, live on 1 floor, rent the other. We lived in a duplex, just outside Hamtown. Well built from the 20's, just minor maintence here and there. Each floor had 3 bedrooms, 1 bath, formal dinning room, living room and family room x2[[each floor). in Shelby two, for a house with all those features your probaly looking at 450k, my old house the zillow is 25k.

[Hypestyles]

assuming the expanded efforts even get off the ground, I wonder to what extent will there be a local employment hook, to bring in neighborhood folks who are unemployed/underemployed and low-skilled? How much are philanthropic agencies expected to get involved [[i.e., underwriting?)

[Novine]

Imagine how far that $500 million would go if that was invested to build up the neighborhoods that are still livable. I've heard the argument that demolition leads to reduced police and fire calls, etc. But not one person has provided evidence of any area of the city where mass demolition has led to new investment. In 10 years, we'll all be asking "Where did that $500 million go?"

[warsaw7]

Here is an idea; would the city ever consider taking small time criminals, [[drunk drivers, petty theft, etc) and have them perform their community service duties by helping dismantle these homes? Obviously they would not be operating the heavy machinery, but to do the manual labor that is involved with dismantling a home. Instead of having them pick up garbage on the side of the roads and highways, they would be doing a greater justice to the community by tearing down these abandoned homes. In the community service/court work program, convicts are typically ordered to pay for their X amount of hours that they perform. I could see the county getting involved in this or even have other cities use this as an option for convicts to work at getting their community service hours fulfilled and realistically no money is being spent to pay for their services. Does anyone believe this is feasible or a realistic option?

[ABetterDetroit]

Here is an idea; would the city ever consider taking small time criminals, [[drunk drivers, petty theft, etc) and have them perform their community service duties by helping dismantle these homes? Obviously they would not be operating the heavy machinery, but to do the manual labor that is involved with dismantling a home. Instead of having them pick up garbage on the side of the roads and highways, they would be doing a greater justice to the community by tearing down these abandoned homes. In the community service/court work program, convicts are typically ordered to pay for their X amount of hours that they perform. I could see the county getting involved in this or even have other cities use this as an option for convicts to work at getting their community service hours fulfilled and realistically no money is being spent to pay for their services. Does anyone believe this is feasible or a realistic option?

Economic viability is the answer I guess that is not very popular here at DY. America is an extremely efficient society. In the private sector, everyone gets value for labor hours or they're put out of business by somebody who can. That is essentially why there aren't any jobs hand loading bricks into dumpsters no matter how much someone may want someone else to have to do it.

A person [[many) with skills, a salary and benefits would have to assemble then manage this "community service" labor pool. In the end, it is very inefficient to operate vs. just getting the people with the skills and equipment in a competitive bid contract environment to knock down the structure in a hurry, get it in the hopper and move on to the next one. This way, they make money by doing it quickly and efficiently and most importantly, competitively.

The City and overall government's failure to understand that exact process is why they cannot balance a budget or accomplish goals in a reasonable manner.

What's wrong with picking up litter anyway? Do you think leaving the filth and garbage on the side of the road will better our society while that "labor force" is expensively reapplied to a inefficient idea?

[warsaw7]

Economic viability is the answer I guess that is not very popular here at DY. America is an extremely efficient society. In the private sector, everyone gets value for labor hours or they're put out of business by somebody who can. That is essentially why there aren't any jobs hand loading bricks into dumpsters no matter how much someone may want someone else to have to do it.

A person [[many) with skills, a salary and benefits would have to assemble then manage this "community service" labor pool. In the end, it is very inefficient to operate vs. just getting the people with the skills and equipment in a competitive bid contract environment to knock down the structure in a hurry, get it in the hopper and move on to the next one. This way, they make money by doing it quickly and efficiently and most importantly, competitively.

The City and overall government's failure to understand that exact process is why they cannot balance a budget or accomplish goals in a reasonable manner.

What's wrong with picking up litter anyway? Do you think leaving the filth and garbage on the side of the road will better our society while that "labor force" is expensively reapplied to a inefficient idea?

Point taken! I guess I should have reiterated here. In my earlier, dumber years I had to perform hours of community service in a small downriver community. There were times where they could not find us anything to do and there were times where we walked around the courthouse/neighborhoods collecting the tiniest pieces of garbage for hours at a time. While I am all for cleaning up litter, I just think there are better ways to benefit society.

And this person you say with the skills set that was monitoring us while we did this, was none other than our probation officer. But I see your point in having to hire an " adult babysitter" as I like to call them, hehe!

[JohnnyFreddy]

Regardless of maintenance costs the housing is affordable. An affordable house will cost about $3-4k for a new roof [[tear-off). $10k is closer to a McMansion sized home.

Oh REALLY???? What dimension do you live in? I just spent $18,000 on my re-roof....take away the 'extras' and I'd still spend $15,000. You people really need to tack on a few dollars here and there making your financial assumptions, especially in buying a house in Detroit. There are ALWAYS extra costs involved. Unless you plan on doing most of the work yourself....$12.00hr. is not going to be nearly enough to sustain your household/mortgage in Detroit. Life isn't as cut and dry as you're making it to be. "You lazy types just need to work harder, and be more like HIM or HIM over there..." It's jut NOT THAT SIMPLE. AND......$12.00 an hour??? Hell, they don't even want people to make $10.00hr. minimum wage.... where's this $12.00hr. coming from? Get real why don't 'ya.

[compn]

Imagine how far that $500 million would go if that was invested to build up the neighborhoods that are still livable. I've heard the argument that demolition leads to reduced police and fire calls, etc. But not one person has provided evidence of any area of the city where mass demolition has led to new investment. In 10 years, we'll all be asking "Where did that $500 million go?"

i like your question, but i think the answer they will give is "investment wont happen until ALL the houses are demolished". in 2020. long after the planners have left town with detroits money stuffed in their pockets.

[313WX]

Here is an idea; would the city ever consider taking small time criminals, [[drunk drivers, petty theft, etc) and have them perform their community service duties by helping dismantle these homes? Obviously they would not be operating the heavy machinery, but to do the manual labor that is involved with dismantling a home. Instead of having them pick up garbage on the side of the roads and highways, they would be doing a greater justice to the community by tearing down these abandoned homes. In the community service/court work program, convicts are typically ordered to pay for their X amount of hours that they perform. I could see the county getting involved in this or even have other cities use this as an option for convicts to work at getting their community service hours fulfilled and realistically no money is being spent to pay for their services. Does anyone believe this is feasible or a realistic option?

Liability is the problem.

It's ons thing to pick up trash along the side of the road. It's another to demolish buildings.

[erikd]

Imagine how far that $500 million would go if that was invested to build up the neighborhoods that are still livable. I've heard the argument that demolition leads to reduced police and fire calls, etc. But not one person has provided evidence of any area of the city where mass demolition has led to new investment. In 10 years, we'll all be asking "Where did that $500 million go?"

IMO, this blight removal program will be a terrible waste of precious resources that would be far better spent addressing the actual problems in the city.

Blight is not the problem, it is a symptom of the actual problems. Spending money to clean up blight is useless unless we also do something to stop the causes of blight first.

Every day, we have perfectly good houses and commercial building get scrapped out before they can be turned around in foreclosure. In the span of a few weeks a valuable property is reduced to blight because we can't control the scrapping epidemic in the city. Spending hundreds of millions to clean up the wreckage wrought by these criminals is not addressing the problem.

The same goes for our empty lots. A large percentage of this blight removal money will be spent to clear illegally dumped debris and overgrowth on empty lots, but there is no plan or funding to maintain these lots or prevent illegal dumping after they are cleared.

The vast majority of the properties to be cleared with this half-billion dollars will be filled with overgrown weeds and illegally dumped debris within a year or two, because we are ignoring the actual problems and focusing on the symptoms.

Until we do something to stop the scrappers and illegal dumping, cleaning up their mess is a waste of time and money.

[compn]

great post erikd. you think by the time the $500m is spent and the houses are demo'd, we will have a new crop of burned out houses to deal with in 5 years?

was there ever a count done on how many houses there are in detroit vs actual population numbers? i mean is there 1.5 million houses for 700K people ?

In Detroit, arsons are so frequent - about 5,000 estimated last year by the Detroit Fire Department - that authorities can only investigate about one of every five suspicious fire cases, Fire Commissioner Don Austin said.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...96C06E20130713

"Even so, the total number of arsons each year has changed little since the 5,100 fires set in 2000."

5000 fires each year x 5 years = 25,000 fires.
$500m for 450 homes a week = 23,400 x5 years = 117,000 homes demo'd

"in a city with an estimated 78,000 unsalvageable structures."

78000 current + 25000 future = 103,000 unsalvageable structures in 5 years. minus the 117,000 going to be demo'd. at least the numbers on the face add up.

i didnt account for scrappers making houses unsalvageable, because i couldnt find any stats for scrapped houses per year.

"One of the men, who had come up from Kentucky to scrap after losing a job in a coal mine, stands out in our minds. Taking a short break from the action, he looked up and said with disgust, “All that’s left here are the remnants of what was.” "
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/19/op...roit.html?_r=0

people coming from other states to scrap in detroit? aint that a damn shame.

but theres no way the bond holders, creditors, banks and pensioners are going to let the city cut from them and spend it on blight removal. thats not how it works. you pay off your debts first, not go spending willy nilly.

[mwilbert]

but theres no way the bond holders, creditors, banks and pensioners are going to let the city cut from them and spend it on blight removal. thats not how it works. you pay off your debts first, not go spending willy nilly.

The whole point of the bankruptcy is not to pay the debts off, and to leave the city with the money it needs to operate effectively. Maybe the plan that finally gets approved won't include this much money for demolition, but it will certainly include spending money on new things and not paying all the existing debt in full.

[warsaw7]

Liability is the problem.

It's ons thing to pick up trash along the side of the road. It's another to demolish buildings.

Again that is my point, they would not be actually demolishing the houses/buildings, they would be throwing the debris and materials into dumpsters or helping to prepare to dismantle the house.

[sumas]

Strange, I find my neighborhood, my home, almost magical. Blight exists all around. This little nook, tiny neighborhood, we take serious our obligations.. I cringe to hear the fire trucks that pass.

We inherited our home from a non family member. He said, if anyone can save and preserve this pretty old home it would be you. Needless to say, his family hates us. Oh well!

I think "we done good". This past year we replaced a roof, replaced and repaired plumbing, rebuilt a garage, brought electric up to code. We didn't break the bank. Just shopped for prices that seemed fair. Our neighbors are renovating too. Our only goal now is to get trim painted and re-landscape [[our dogs did serious damage)

[NickCharles]

Oh REALLY???? What dimension do you live in? I just spent $18,000 on my re-roof....take away the 'extras' and I'd still spend $15,000.

Geez, man, I agree that $3-4K is an unreasonably low estimate, but if you spent $18K [[or even $15K,) I have to wonder if solar panels or platinum were involved.
Unless you live in an enormous house and are just too humble to admit so.

[Hypestyles]

who are the most obstinate members of the state senate and house who oppose comprehensive anti-scrapping and anti-dumping bills?

[313WX]

who are the most obstinate members of the state senate and house who oppose comprehensive anti-scrapping and anti-dumping bills?

They're not a part of Detroit's delegation [[likely from Grand Rapids, Monroe and the U.P./Northern Lower), so why does it matter anyway?

[maverick1]

They're not a part of Detroit's delegation [[likely from Grand Rapids, Monroe and the U.P./Northern Lower), so why does it matter anyway?

It's crazy how the largest city in this state has no clout politically in Lansing. I'm not sure if Southeast Michigan has clout anymore either.

[313WX]

It's crazy how the largest city in this state has no clout politically in Lansing. I'm not sure if Southeast Michigan has clout anymore either.

That's what happens when the state's largest city loses 2/3 of its peak population to its surrounding suburbs while the rest of the state has nearly doubled in population. It doesn't help either that majority of the state outside of Detroit seems to harbor negative attitudes towards the city.

Back in the 1940s-1970s, Detroit ran laps around Lansing [[like Chicago still does in Illinois today).