M-1 rail discussion

[emu steve]

A subtle point was made in a Detnews story today about how potential retail stores on Woodward may hold back opening until after all the construction of Woodward and the rail line are completed. If that is the case then likely another two years before this supposed high end retail explosion of apple and nike stores.

I can understand it.

It is the classic: "Short term pain for long term gain."

Quite frankly Woodward is butt ugly as it goes through its transformation. By late 2016 Woodward should be 'like new' and the arena should be topped off [[is that the expression) and work proceeding inside.

I suspect once Woodward is resurfaced that anyone looking to open a store or streetscape or whatever will feel like it is 'green light' time. Spring 2017?

[mikeg19]

A subtle point was made in a Detnews story today about how potential retail stores on Woodward may hold back opening until after all the construction of Woodward and the rail line are completed. If that is the case then likely another two years before this supposed high end retail explosion of apple and nike stores.

We've been waiting 50 years. I think we can manage two more. Detroit 2025 is going to be a vastly different place. Hell, maybe M-1 might even extend another mile or two by then as well.

[emu steve]

An incredible number of people do in fact text and drive during rush hour on 75. I was looking around counting one day until I realized that half, or more, were. I decided I no longer wanted to know!


To add to the general conversation, I'd love if they expanded to at least Pontiac. I have a long commute and I'd much rather ride a train and read a book. I'd even use it if I had to drive half way. I think connecting to Flint would be truly ideal. I can imagine a lot of people would use it when going to Tigers/Lions/Wings games.

To me, setting up another M-1 "express line" from Woodward/8 mile to New Center is a 'no brainer'.

Once folks learn the joys of ditching the car [[say at Woodward/8 Mile) and riding a nice, light train and reading a book, newspaper, or smartphone they'll break the car habit.

Using JMarie's example, who would want to deal with both traffic and parking for a sporting event if they can take a relaxing train ride.

Folks would quickly find texting, e-mail, etc. with those smart phone would make a 20 minute ride seem like five. Get off the train and a short walk to a stadium. Or literally to the door for a Red Wings game.

And lest we forget, having those folks transfer at New Center to the 'original' M-1 line would bolster the [[original) M-1 line. These would be 'new' riders who previously did not use the 'original' M-1, they would be using two segments, which would be great for the New Center/downtown segment.

My last experiences with parking around Comerica was not good [[I think it took 30 minutes to get from Comerica to my parking spot and out of the area, which was not easy at all).

It would be the 'cool' thing to do in Detroit.

Yes, Detroit could get that habit, the car capital of the world [[and I'm not talking some city in Mexico) and finally come to appreciate the role of mass transit in modern America.

Not asking folks in Metro Detroit to sell their cars but realize that mass transit makes sense for certain purposes like 'journey to work' [[New Center, Medical Center/WSU, downtown) and getting to/from sporting events in the downtown.

[LP_85]

I don't think you'd need two separate lines if it went all the way to 8 Mile - the same trains would keep going through New Center and into Downtown, just with more frequent stops. If it's coordinated well you shouldn't have a problem backing up the trains further up the line because they'd be more spaced out to begin with. Having to make a transfer to keep going in the same direction doesn't make a lot of sense.

[LP_85]

A subtle point was made in a Detnews story today about how potential retail stores on Woodward may hold back opening until after all the construction of Woodward and the rail line are completed. If that is the case then likely another two years before this supposed high end retail explosion of apple and nike stores.

That's a good plan, probably. Especially to time any "Grand Opening" to coordinate to when the corridor itself will be getting plenty of media hype. That doesn't mean they couldn't do a soft opening a bit sooner - the actual road construction is supposed to wrap next fall, with operation commencing in the following spring. And of course they could make their announcements and start buildout even sooner. Especially given the renovation already going on with a lot of the buildings on the west side of Woodward.

I'm willing to bet that we can expect a lot of concrete, high-profile announcements next summer.

[emu steve]

I don't think you'd need two separate lines if it went all the way to 8 Mile - the same trains would keep going through New Center and into Downtown, just with more frequent stops. If it's coordinated well you shouldn't have a problem backing up the trains further up the line because they'd be more spaced out to begin with. Having to make a transfer to keep going in the same direction doesn't make a lot of sense.

I hear you and your points, but I think the 'two lines' would be complimentary, not an extension of the 'original' M-1.

One of my points is for the trains to be a desirable mode of mass transportation they have to be very reliable, timely, etc. etc. and I don't think one 8+ mile line would be that, esp. with all of the stops along the 3.3M route.

A related point is that the New Center < ---- > 8 mile runs would be a little less frequent than the 'shuttle' runs from New Center to downtown. The long run might be spaced 15 minutes apart while the New Center/Downtown line might be 1/2 of that.

I could see 'rush hour' and 'non rush hour' service from 8 mile to New Center [[say 12 minute intervals for rush hour and maybe 20 minutes for non rush hour service). I could see a true 'express' bus from 8 Mile to New Center - no stops during rush hour. Or a mix of 'Express' and Local [[the one which makes a few stops).

But I think the M-1 as will be implemented in say 18 months will be kind of a 'pilot' or 'demonstration' project which will answer a lot of questions: Demand, what is the feasible [[best) interval time wise between trains, reliability, timeliness, etc.

Then, and if the public and private employers in downtown have done their homework, they will have collected 'journey to work' data or done surveys to answer this question:

"If there was a light rail system running along Woodward from 8 mile to downtown, would you consider utilizing it for your trip to work?" [["Yes, "probably yes", "probably not" and "No.").

Lions, Red Wings, Tigers, etc. could ask their patrons. [["...for your trip to the game?")

Would 3 - 5K folks make round trips to a Lions game? Maybe.

[rbdetsport]

How bout a local line that goes into downtown Royal Oak and runs express service along the entire route from Downtown to Pontiac. This would only require duplicate rail through Royal Oak and at a couple of stops north of New Center.

[LP_85]

I hear you and your points, but I think the 'two lines' would be complimentary, not an extension of the 'original' M-1.

One of my points is for the trains to be a desirable mode of mass transportation they have to be very reliable, timely, etc. etc. and I don't think one 8+ mile line would be that, esp. with all of the stops along the 3.3M route.

A related point is that the New Center < ---- > 8 mile runs would be a little less frequent than the 'shuttle' runs from New Center to downtown. The long run might be spaced 15 minutes apart while the New Center/Downtown line might be 1/2 of that.

I could see 'rush hour' and 'non rush hour' service from 8 mile to New Center [[say 12 minute intervals for rush hour and maybe 20 minutes for non rush hour service). I could see a true 'express' bus from 8 Mile to New Center - no stops during rush hour. Or a mix of 'Express' and Local [[the one which makes a few stops).

I see what you're saying, I just think that's way more complicated than it needs to be. Take a look at the map of Portland's TriMet Max system:

http://trimet.org/pdfs/maps/railsystem.pdf

Both the Red and Blue lines pass through downtown, on one shared track each direction, in narrow streets, through a pretty dense area of the city. From Providence Park to Chinatown, you've got eight stops in just a mile of the route. As it gets further from the city center, the stops are further apart. The Red Line goes up to the Airport, while the Blue Line goes all the way to an Eastern suburb.

You can ride straight through without switching trains, which still manage to come by every 15 minutes [[according to their website, anyway). If they can do it with two lines in narrow streets while maintaining about 750,000 riders a week, coordinating something similar on the Woodward corridor shouldn't be a problem. I really don't think something like express/skip-stop service would be all that useful in a system like that. Maybe if it were a multi-track subway.

[emu steve]

I see what you're saying, I just think that's way more complicated than it needs to be. Take a look at the map of Portland's TriMet Max system:

http://trimet.org/pdfs/maps/railsystem.pdf

Both the Red and Blue lines pass through downtown, on one shared track each direction, in narrow streets, through a pretty dense area of the city. From Providence Park to Chinatown, you've got eight stops in just a mile of the route. As it gets further from the city center, the stops are further apart. The Red Line goes up to the Airport, while the Blue Line goes all the way to an Eastern suburb.

You can ride straight through without switching trains, which still manage to come by every 15 minutes [[according to their website, anyway). If they can do it with two lines in narrow streets while maintaining about 750,000 riders a week, coordinating something similar on the Woodward corridor shouldn't be a problem. I really don't think something like express/skip-stop service would be all that useful in a system like that. Maybe if it were a multi-track subway.

BTW, could M-1 have alternating trains, one going to 8 Mile and complete the big loop while the next train does New Center and the 3.3M loop??? Trains could be labeled: 8 Mile Road and New Center. Someone traveling between downtown and New Center could take either train. Probably would take a few trains to adequately service the big loop to 8 Mile or else the service would be much to infrequent.

I like what Portland has done. It seems very similar to the D.C. area subway system.

It is great to have up to say three lines pass through the same point [[in this case, Portland, the red, blue and green [[?) all run parallel).

It has the effect of having a high degree of service in the downtown area and less service as one moves out, e.g., to the airport.

For Detroit, things should be more difficult. E.g., how would a line from Gratiot on the east side join M-1 and then go out say along Grand River? Or would a Gratiot line terminate at/near Woodward? Ditto for a Grand River line?

[LP_85]

BTW, could M-1 have alternating trains, one going to 8 Mile and complete the big loop while the next train does New Center and the 3.3M loop??? Trains could be labeled: 8 Mile Road and New Center. Someone traveling between downtown and New Center could take either train. Probably would take a few trains to adequately service the big loop to 8 Mile or else the service would be much to infrequent.

Maybe, but even a line from Downtown to 8 Mile wouldn't be that long compared to other systems. Yeah, train frequency is important, but so is ease of use - especially for a population largely unfamiliar with these modes. If a single, all stop line on one route can be effectively managed [[as it is elsewhere), I think that's the best way to go.

I like what Portland has done. It seems very similar to the D.C. area subway system.

It is great to have up to say three lines pass through the same point [[in this case, Portland, the red, blue and green [[?) all run parallel).

It has the effect of having a high degree of service in the downtown area and less service as one moves out, e.g., to the airport.

For Detroit, things should be more difficult. E.g., how would a line from Gratiot on the east side join M-1 and then go out say along Grand River? Or would a Gratiot line terminate at/near Woodward? Ditto for a Grand River line?

I think Portland is a great example to look to for mass transit ideas. They've been at the light rail thing for decades. The land area and population numbers are very similar to Detroit's. I think the biggest difference here is the level of urban sprawl which would make separate rights-of-way difficult to do at this point.

One possibility is if you have lines converging downtown along the radial avenues. Lines from Grand River and Michigan Avenues could come together at Washington Blvd, then turn up Jefferson and connect to Woodward. You could then continue one line along Jefferson, and have one split up Randolph and then head out Gratiot. Campus Martius would be way too small of a choke point for something like that - this way, coverage would be spread out across the lower downtown area.

[bust]

I'm surprised Professor Scott's suggestion how a express line from 8 mile could work was ignored.

If the trains run super-frequently like the streetcars did in the old days - the headways on Woodward and Grand River in the 1940s were 1 minute - then you can't do it on the same tracks. But M1 isn't talking about that kind of frequency. If the M1 trains are, let's say, 10 minutes apart, then you just let the southbound express onto the tracks just before an M1 trip starts, and it will have no other train to run into; the M1 train ahead of the one just mentioned will reach downtown a couple minutes ahead of the express.

So it takes timing and coordination, and you would have a hard time doing it at all without computer-aided dispatch, but it's not impossible, given that M1 is only about three and a half miles long, and will run on something like a 10 minute schedule, I think.

Of course, the big problem with extending it to the north in any manner at all, is money.

It seems like a great idea. No need for separate tracks. The express makes only a few widely-spaced stops, and is timed to arrive at New Center just in front of the next local heading downtown. From there the express continues to Congress uninterrupted or perhaps with one or two stops, and no local ahead of it in its way. Any passengers wanting to exit at a bypass stop can transfer to the local. If they do it at New Center they'll have only a short wait. This assumes the timing can be coordinated, like the prof said.

Of course it's all theoretical until money is earmarked for the project, but we can hope.

[royce]

Few things I've noticed

I know originally the plan in midtown was to have parking on the southbound side of woodward, and on the northbound side the outer most lane would have been the m-1 rail so they were going to eliminate parking on the northbound side, but keep it on the southbound side... a lot of people were disappointed in this..

HOWEVER... i've noticed south of Mack on woodward in the portion of m-1 that is complete [[the northbound side of woodward south of Mack from about where the redwings arena construction starts right up to mack avenue) .. it seems as though there is going to be available parking!... to the right of the m-1 rail lane there are various red brick sections that look like the old outermost parking lane of woodward... so it looks as though parking will be available on BOTH sides of woodward in midtown like how it always was... anyone have any updates or seen the same thing I did??

second..

JUST south of mack in the completed section of m-1... there is a big area that is just dirt... looks like that is where the Mack rail stop is going to be constructed! makes sense that it would stop just before the traffic light.. they'll time it so that when the rail pulls up to the station the light will be red... people will get off and people will also board... as soon as the doors close when all the passengers have got on the light will turn green... so you don't notice the stopping at lights and think it's just stopping because you're at a station.. good design

Well, I've noticed the opposite on the Southbound lanes. On the I-75 and I-94 overpasses, the rails are in the curb side lane. Was this what they meant by "curb-side?" I just assumed that it meant closer to the curb [[second lane) as opposed to "center-lined." If that's the case then this is very disappointing. To eliminate all the parking on one side of Woodward just for this rail is short-sighted. Woodward is wide enough for both parking and light-rail. No more parking in front of the Detroit main library is gonna be a pain. It's already hard like hell trying to find a parking space around there.

I guess now I understand why people complained about choosing curb-side over center-lined. At some point, delivery trucks will be blocking rail on the Southbound side. You can't ask a delivery driver to park on a side street to delivery items for some of the stores and restaurants, especially if they're not at the corner of the block. Again, very disappointing.

[emu steve]

I'm surprised Professor Scott's suggestion how a express line from 8 mile could work was ignored.



It seems like a great idea. No need for separate tracks. The express makes only a few widely-spaced stops, and is timed to arrive at New Center just in front of the next local heading downtown. From there the express continues to Congress uninterrupted or perhaps with one or two stops, and no local ahead of it in its way. Any passengers wanting to exit at a bypass stop can transfer to the local. If they do it at New Center they'll have only a short wait. This assumes the timing can be coordinated, like the prof said.

Of course it's all theoretical until money is earmarked for the project, but we can hope.

BTW, there are these little things called 'transfers' where one can transfer from one train to the next. Those going southbound from 8 Mile would get a transfer which could be used at the New Center [[local stops) segment to get downtown.

What I find fascinating about recent posts is that this M-1 thread has morphed from a 'choo choo to nowhere' criticism to M-1 being the first building block of what could become a high quality, timely north/south mass transit line connecting Oakland County folks [[who could get on/off at 8 Mile) to downtown with plenty of flexibility to add other east/west lines once this line is up and running and doing well.

BTW, I am very familiar with 'express' bus service [[used it to connect to a subway line). An 'express' line can have limited stops and then have essentially a non stop trip. What I'm familiar with is a bus line which made some local stops before getting into HOV [[high occupancy vehicles) expressway lanes ending at the Pentagon where riders transferred to the subway.

[bust]

BTW, there are these little things called 'transfers' where one can transfer from one train to the next. Those going southbound from 8 Mile would get a transfer which could be used at the New Center [[local stops) segment to get downtown.

What I find fascinating about recent posts is that this M-1 thread has morphed from a 'choo choo to nowhere' criticism to M-1 being the first building block of what could become a high quality, timely north/south mass transit line connecting Oakland County folks [[who could get on/off at 8 Mile) to downtown with plenty of flexibility to add other east/west lines once this line is up and running and doing well.

BTW, I am very familiar with 'express' bus service [[used it to connect to a subway line). An 'express' line can have limited stops and then have essentially a non stop trip. What I'm familiar with is a bus line which made some local stops before getting into HOV [[high occupancy vehicles) expressway lanes ending at the Pentagon where riders transferred to the subway.

I'm aware of the 'transfer' concept. I refer to it in my comment.

And I'm a huge fan of mass transit. I bought my first car within days of receiving my learner's permit, from money I earned doing yardwork, cleaning gutters, and shoveling snow for our neighbors [[after doing our own for free). But since leaving Detroit I've lived in cities with good and great mass transit, and have managed happily without one. And for many more years than I ever owned a car.

However forms of mass transit are not equal. Some cities have better buses than others, but almost all buses provide slow, dirty, unpleasantly bumpy rides. I understand they're cheaper and easier to implement, and more flexible in that their routes can change. But given the option, I'll take a subway, train, light rail, trolley, furnuncular, tramway, zipline, walk, bike, or hail a taxi rather than ride a bus almost every time. And data seem to suggest there are many who feel the same way. Even though buses in New York go all the places subways do, and many more places subways don't, subways see nearly three times as much ridership: http://web.mta.info/nyct/facts/ridership/

It's great to see M1 spurring development. Buses have run down Woodward for ages, but somehow light rail seems to be accomplishing what those buses never did. So while there are valid arguments buses are cheaper and more flexible, many people will wait for something better before embracing mass transit. And smart money seems to know it. As you say, let's hope M1 is only the start of a much bigger thing.

[MSUguy]

Has it already been decided that it will be BRT line will be running all from the Blvd north to Pontiac? As I understand it one of the unresolved issues is will run with M-1 to downtown or Cass and John R. If it ran Cass/John R that could offer the chance for limited stop/express services it doesn't make sense that has the same stops a block over.

[LP_85]

Has it already been decided that it will be BRT line will be running all from the Blvd north to Pontiac? As I understand it one of the unresolved issues is will run with M-1 to downtown or Cass and John R. If it ran Cass/John R that could offer the chance for limited stop/express services it doesn't make sense that has the same stops a block over.

I think it's been "decided" in the sense that it's what the RTA intends to do, but I don't think there's been anything concrete beyond initial planning and analysis. If I recall they singled out Woodward and Gratiot as the corridors to focus on. My hope is that the M1 project will generate enough interest to get a push for real transit on those corridors, and others.

[MSUguy]

I think it's been "decided" in the sense that it's what the RTA intends to do, but I don't think there's been anything concrete beyond initial planning and analysis. If I recall they singled out Woodward and Gratiot as the corridors to focus on. My hope is that the M1 project will generate enough interest to get a push for real transit on those corridors, and others.

This sounds like decision to me

http://www.rtamichigan.org/best-proj...odward-avenue/

BEST: Woodward Avenue is an environmental review of the locally preferred alternative [[LPA) that resulted from the Woodward Avenue Rapid Transit Alternatives Analysis [[AA), conducted from 2012 to 2014. The LPA recommends bus rapid transit [[BRT) along the 27-mile Woodward Avenue corridor from Downtown Detroit to Downtown Pontiac that will operate within the existing right-of-way, servicing 26 stations primarily on Woodward Avenue through 11 communities in Wayne and Oakland Counties.
The primary goals of BEST: Woodward Avenue are to:

• Analyze impacts on the human and physical environment; typical areas of impacts are Traffic, Noise and Vibration,and Environmental Justice

• Develop prototypical station designs

• Facilitate a local decision-making process that identifies a project and financial strategies that will ensure federal funding support

• Advance BEST: Woodward Avenue into the engineering phase

• Facilitate a transparent and inclusive public engagement process to include all stakeholders

[LP_85]

This sounds like decision to me

http://www.rtamichigan.org/best-proj...odward-avenue/

BEST: Woodward Avenue is an environmental review of the locally preferred alternative [[LPA) that resulted from the Woodward Avenue Rapid Transit Alternatives Analysis [[AA), conducted from 2012 to 2014. The LPA recommends bus rapid transit [[BRT) along the 27-mile Woodward Avenue corridor...

A recommendation doesn't sound like much of a commitment to me [[yet). Not that those in charge aren't totally set on it, but it sounds like they still need to do environmental & engineering studies, figure out exact routing and stations, and find out how to pay for and operate the thing.

The thing that bugs me, though, is that it "will operate within the existing right of way." Really? It's going to go 27 miles without any separation from traffic? That's not BRT, that's just an over-sized bus.

[professorscott]

A recommendation doesn't sound like much of a commitment to me [[yet). Not that those in charge aren't totally set on it, but it sounds like they still need to do environmental & engineering studies, figure out exact routing and stations, and find out how to pay for and operate the thing.

The thing that bugs me, though, is that it "will operate within the existing right of way." Really? It's going to go 27 miles without any separation from traffic? That's not BRT, that's just an over-sized bus.

You're over-reading this: "within the existing right of way" means inside the land over which MDOT has control. Within that right of way, much reconfiguration can be done, including bus-only lanes, queue-jump spaces and so on.

I'm not entirely confident this will be done correctly, if it's ever done at all, but nobody is considering running buses in mixed traffic over the entire length of the line.

[LP_85]

You're over-reading this: "within the existing right of way" means inside the land over which MDOT has control. Within that right of way, much reconfiguration can be done, including bus-only lanes, queue-jump spaces and so on.

I'm not entirely confident this will be done correctly, if it's ever done at all, but nobody is considering running buses in mixed traffic over the entire length of the line.

Got it, thanks for the clarification. And I agree, it still doesn't inspire confidence that it will be well implemented. For truly effective BRT, it's my understanding you need to really invest in true grade separation [[beyond just adding lines to the pavement), good stations, and efficient, high capacity buses.

Even doing all this, that's not a guarantee of saving money. The capital costs are almost certainly lower than rail [[though massive infrastructure investments would shrink the gap). But you need more buses, more drivers, and more fuel to transport the same amount of people. Buses break down more often, and have a greater impact on the roadway too.

I'm not saying we need to lay rails all the way up Woodward, either. Why not just restore frequent, commuter grade service along the Amtrak rails to Pontiac? The tracks are already there. I know it didn't work out so well in the past, but I think having the connection directly to the M1 rail from New Center to Downtown, and even with the People Mover in the mix, that it could really change the equation.

[LP_85]

Well, I've noticed the opposite on the Southbound lanes. On the I-75 and I-94 overpasses, the rails are in the curb side lane. Was this what they meant by "curb-side?" I just assumed that it meant closer to the curb [[second lane) as opposed to "center-lined." If that's the case then this is very disappointing. To eliminate all the parking on one side of Woodward just for this rail is short-sighted. Woodward is wide enough for both parking and light-rail. No more parking in front of the Detroit main library is gonna be a pain. It's already hard like hell trying to find a parking space around there.

I guess now I understand why people complained about choosing curb-side over center-lined. At some point, delivery trucks will be blocking rail on the Southbound side. You can't ask a delivery driver to park on a side street to delivery items for some of the stores and restaurants, especially if they're not at the corner of the block. Again, very disappointing.

Yeah, the rails are along the curb on those overpasses, but you can't park on those bridges in the first place. Take a look at some of the other places where the rails are already in - there's lots of places where they left room for curbside parking/loading. Particularly in front of the Fox Theatre, also along Grand Circus Park, and a few other places as well. Not sure exactly what the plans are in front of the Library/DIA, but I think there's going to be a stop there.

Slightly related, I found this video of Portland's Green Line MAX:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBNOQKDEOew

It shows the whole route, from Portland State University, through downtown, over the river, and into the Southeastern suburbs. It's interesting to see how one system interacts with the environment as it goes along. In the downtown areas, it's mostly curb-running [[though on a one-way street), with occasional spacing for bus lanes, then grade-separated from the surface streets in the outer neighborhood areas, and then a totally separate ROW aligned with the freeway.

It's also cool to see how it interacts with other forms of transit throughout the city - buses, other Light Rail, the streetcar, Amtrak, etc.

[professorscott]

Why not just restore frequent, commuter grade service along the Amtrak rails to Pontiac? The tracks are already there.

Two reasons: the big reason is that the private companies that own all of the railroad tracks are using them heavily for freight and aren't interested in having more passenger trains on their tracks. That is one of the things that has held up the Ann Arbor to Detroit commuter rail service lo these many years. I have had many conversations about this over the years with the folks at SEMCOG who have been, and are, heavily involved with it.

That is one of the disadvantages of living in a region where, despite what everyone seems to think, there is still quite a good deal of manufacturing.

The small reason, but still pretty important, is that railroad tracks no longer come anywhere near downtown.

[LP_85]

Two reasons: the big reason is that the private companies that own all of the railroad tracks are using them heavily for freight and aren't interested in having more passenger trains on their tracks. That is one of the things that has held up the Ann Arbor to Detroit commuter rail service lo these many years. I have had many conversations about this over the years with the folks at SEMCOG who have been, and are, heavily involved with it.

I had a feeling that was a factor. I knew the tracks were privately owned, just wasn't sure how invested they were in keeping transit away. Obviously they're looking out for their bottom line.

The small reason, but still pretty important, is that railroad tracks no longer come anywhere near downtown.

That's kind of my point, since the stop is now in New Center, having the connection to M1 would serve to bolster both systems [[not to mention an Ann Arbor/Airport line). Guess there's unfortunate obstacles no matter how you slice it.

[rbdetsport]

The small reason, but still pretty important, is that railroad tracks no longer come anywhere near downtown.

Restore MCS and build the Michigan Ave LRT to DTW!!!

[royce]

Two reasons: the big reason is that the private companies that own all of the railroad tracks are using them heavily for freight and aren't interested in having more passenger trains on their tracks. That is one of the things that has held up the Ann Arbor to Detroit commuter rail service lo these many years. I have had many conversations about this over the years with the folks at SEMCOG who have been, and are, heavily involved with it.

That is one of the disadvantages of living in a region where, despite what everyone seems to think, there is still quite a good deal of manufacturing.

The small reason, but still pretty important, is that railroad tracks no longer come anywhere near downtown.

Here's the solution but MDOT would never imagine this in a million years. The answer to a Detroit-Ann Arbor rail line is to put a commuter rail on M-14/I-96/Fisher Fwy. It could go from Main Street in Ann Arbor [[underground there) to and along M-14 to I-96 through Livonia, Redford, and Detroit. It would end along the Fisher Freeway at Woodward. The rail would be in the center of the freeways with a small number of stops. What I want to know is, "Why can't it be done?"