M-1 rail discussion

[rbdetsport]

JUST south of mack in the completed section of m-1... there is a big area that is just dirt... looks like that is where the Mack rail stop is going to be constructed! makes sense that it would stop just before the traffic light.. they'll time it so that when the rail pulls up to the station the light will be red... people will get off and people will also board... as soon as the doors close when all the passengers have got on the light will turn green... so you don't notice the stopping at lights and think it's just stopping because you're at a station.. good design

Transit Signal Priority [[TSP). It has become the norm and expected with on-street rail.

[emu steve]

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...rnoon-20150813

Is the choo choo to no where actually causing redevelopment to happen?

Inquiring minds want to know...

I bet some will say no. Nothing causes nothing to happen.

[Bham1982]

Inquiring minds want to know...

Inquiring minds should better understand the distinction between correlation and causation.

[emu steve]

Inquiring minds should better understand the distinction between correlation and causation.

I certainly do. Every time a man has sex with a woman and gets her pregnant there is causation... I do understand. When I worked it caused money to be deposited into my back account every two weeks. I do understand. Simple cause and effect relationships are elementary everyone understands them.

Isn't it interesting that as plans for the choo choo unfold and work progresses that commercial development follows the path of that choo choo development and will conveniently stop where the choo choo makes its northern most stop. Interesting. The time lag relationship here is very noticeable. The announcement and work on the choo choo came first, announcement of development somewhat later.

In time lag correlation studies, not only are two [[or more) variables correlated but there is also the requirement of time, i.e., the effect on Y needs to be preceded by a unknown [[?) amount of time of changes in the X variable. E.g., smoking and lung cancer. a 70 year old man who smokes for two years is highly unlikely to get lung cancer. The Y [[lung cancer) is dependent on the X [[smoking) but the X is measured over a long period of time.

I find it interesting how folks use the difference between correlation and causation to deny what ever they wish to deny.

And for folks into social science research, for those who wish to deny the results of a survey, the old joke was: "bad sample." [[or sometimes 'bad questions or questionnaire design'.).

[LP_85]

Lots of interesting points brought up in this discussion. It's been interesting to follow this project and think about where it could lead. While there's fair criticisms to be made, in terms of design, execution, and implementation, overall, I'm pretty excited for it. I think it has the potential to be the foundation for something useful for the whole region, as opposed to the People Mover, which seemed doomed from the start.

First, it's being built in the right spot to start something like this - the most dense, and culturally and commercially active part of the city. No, it doesn't serve everybody, but that's not really the point [[yet). It really is more of a real estate/development project than a true transit project. But it has a chance to really change the perception and image of transit in the region, and that could be a real boon for future planning, whether it's more rail lines or improved bus routes [[hopefully both)

I also think it's well suited for future expansion. My ultimate, pipe dream system would have the Woodward line extend all the way to 8 Mile [[Running to Pontiac would be great, but even less feasible. A nice alternative would be to bring back commuter service on the Amtrak line between Pontiac & New Center). Then other lines along most of the radial avenues - which would connect to more neighborhoods, and currently stable areas on those corridors that have a shot at real growth. I think those roads are perfectly suited for some kind of comprehensive transit system with their layout. Evenly spaced to reach most parts of the city, converging on the Downtown core, and way wider than most current traffic volumes require [[a couple of rail lines down the middle would hardly disrupt traffic flow).

The one interesting thing about the People Mover is that it has stations right on all of those spoke roads. You build transit lines along those roads, with stops adjacent to those stations to make transferring easy, and suddenly the People Mover becomes very, very useful.

[emu steve]

Lots of interesting points brought up in this discussion. It's been interesting to follow this project and think about where it could lead. While there's fair criticisms to be made, in terms of design, execution, and implementation, overall, I'm pretty excited for it. I think it has the potential to be the foundation for something useful for the whole region, as opposed to the People Mover, which seemed doomed from the start.

First, it's being built in the right spot to start something like this - the most dense, and culturally and commercially active part of the city. No, it doesn't serve everybody, but that's not really the point [[yet). It really is more of a real estate/development project than a true transit project. But it has a chance to really change the perception and image of transit in the region, and that could be a real boon for future planning, whether it's more rail lines or improved bus routes [[hopefully both)

I also think it's well suited for future expansion. My ultimate, pipe dream system would have the Woodward line extend all the way to 8 Mile [[Running to Pontiac would be great, but even less feasible. A nice alternative would be to bring back commuter service on the Amtrak line between Pontiac & New Center). Then other lines along most of the radial avenues - which would connect to more neighborhoods, and currently stable areas on those corridors that have a shot at real growth. I think those roads are perfectly suited for some kind of comprehensive transit system with their layout. Evenly spaced to reach most parts of the city, converging on the Downtown core, and way wider than most current traffic volumes require [[a couple of rail lines down the middle would hardly disrupt traffic flow).

The one interesting thing about the People Mover is that it has stations right on all of those spoke roads. You build transit lines along those roads, with stops adjacent to those stations to make transferring easy, and suddenly the People Mover becomes very, very useful.

Excellent points.

One thing about a line from 8 mile to New Center:

Wonder if it would have an 'express' service design? Express service might mean only limited stops between the terminuses. This would speed the trip and make it more likely to stay on schedule.

For example, maybe only four or five stops at key intersections, such as 6 Mile, etc. Would there be free or VERY cheap parking at 8 Mile and Woodward?

That would be huge for the New Center area. Park at 8 Mile/Woodward and with say four stops be in New Center.

[Lowell]

Excellent points.

One thing about a line from 8 mile to New Center:

Wonder if it would have an 'express' service design? Express service might mean only limited stops between the terminuses. This would speed the trip and make it more likely to stay on schedule.

How would the express train overtake the all-stops trains? Isn't the system limited by to the speed of the slowest train?

[emu steve]

How would the express train overtake the all-stops trains? Isn't the system limited by to the speed of the slowest train?

Nope. If there is an express train system there wouldn't be a 'local system' with many stops instead. Eight mile to New Center would be a say 3 or 4 stop 'express' system with a 'transfer' to the M-1 line, as we know it [[with all of the stops).

Whether that is fair [[to have an express line, instead of a many stop 'local' system) is another question.

I guess what I'm thinking is stops at 7 mile, 6 mile, maybe by the Cathedral [[of the Most Sacred Heart), etc.

The idea is to transport as many as people probably living in Oakland County or near Woodward to the New Center/Midtown/downtown areas.

E.g., if this system was implemented, would thousands of riders board an express train at 8 mile and take it to Ford Field for a Lions' game, rather than deal with traffic and parking near the stadium????

Or would folks working in New Center take a train from around 8 mile to New Center? Cheaper? As fast?

[LP_85]

Excellent points.

One thing about a line from 8 mile to New Center:

Wonder if it would have an 'express' service design? Express service might mean only limited stops between the terminuses. This would speed the trip and make it more likely to stay on schedule.

For example, maybe only four or five stops at key intersections, such as 6 Mile, etc. Would there be free or VERY cheap parking at 8 Mile and Woodward?

That's exactly what I'm thinking; any expansion beyond the current end of the line would behave more like a true "rapid transit" system - stops spaced further apart, and also center running tracks with at least partial grade separation. I'm thinking a stop at Boston-Edison, one in Highland Park, one at Palmer Park, then ending at 8 Mile and connecting to the transit center at State Fair, so really only 4 more stops on the rest of the line.

http://www.humantransit.org/2010/03/...ifference.html

Here's an article about the distinction between Streetcars and Light Rail. The first example in the graphic is how I picture the spacing of any expansions of the system - mixed traffic with stops closer together in the "Downtown" core, then separation from traffic and further spaced stops as it moves out of downtown. Lines on other roads could follow this model too, and could probably do with even fewer stops in the Downtown area in most cases.

[LP_85]

And while we're on the subject, here's what I'd do if we really were to go all out on a city-wide system. I'm not a transit expert, and I know it's total fantasy territory, it's just an interesting subject I've thought about a lot.

You'd basically have three separate "lines" that travel from the outer parts of the city to Downtown:

The Woodward Line: What's currently being built, plus an extension out to 8 Mile.

A Michigan/Jefferson line: This line would start on the West side of the city, run along Michigan Ave and include stops in Corktown and at the Rosa Parks Transit Center/People Mover, then turn down Washington and pass in front of Cobo, then run along Jefferson out toward the Pointes.

A Grand River/Gratiot line: A line along these routes could behave more like light rail in the neighborhoods, then in downtown could snake along like a streetcar on some of the one-way streets around Capitol Park and the Library, to connect the two avenues.

These three lines don't connect directly to one another, but could interact well with the People Mover - it would be ideal if there were a way to make that thing run in two directions at once.

I could also see a sort of "Midway Loop" running along Grand Blvd, connecting between the lines at their midpoints. Also maybe a North-South line along Livernois, connecting the Michigan & Grand River routes to more Northwestern points like U of D and the 7 Mile-Livernois area.

[dtowncitylover]

These three lines don't connect directly to one another, but could interact well with the People Mover - it would be ideal if there were a way to make that thing run in two directions at once.

While I agree with most of this post, I think doing anything with the People Mover in terms of making part of our system is not needed. The People Mover is a good shuttle for downtown and that's basically all it should be. If we want to have true mass transit, anything that is built needs to work of each other. Streetcar lines need to meet, commuter lines need to feed into those lines and with each other. The People Mover, with it's elevated-ness and stops, does not make it easy to transfer to ground transportation and since downtown is a no more than 20 minute walk across, I don't see why one would need it if any future streetcar line[[s) criss-cross downtown. We should let the PM continue what it has seem to become: a unique way for downtown visitors to see downtown and to shuttle people from games to parking. Let the streetcars be the movers of commuters, residents, and tourists who wish to visit outside of downtown.

In order for transit to flow, lines must be connected with transfer hubs. We cannot and should not let the People Mover do that, it's not 'feng shui' or logical.

[LP_85]

We cannot and should not let the People Mover do that, it's not 'feng shui' or logical.

I dunno. Obviously there are built-in limitations, but I think it has some potential. Take The Loop in Chicago, where all of the transit lines converge. That loop takes up a comparably sized area, with a similar number of stops. Of course, they also travel directly from there to the outer neighborhoods, but people also transfer from elevated lines to the subway lines every day without much issue.

But yeah, an engineer would probably come up with something way less convoluted.

[emu steve]

That's exactly what I'm thinking; any expansion beyond the current end of the line would behave more like a true "rapid transit" system - stops spaced further apart, and also center running tracks with at least partial grade separation. I'm thinking a stop at Boston-Edison, one in Highland Park, one at Palmer Park, then ending at 8 Mile and connecting to the transit center at State Fair, so really only 4 more stops on the rest of the line.

http://www.humantransit.org/2010/03/...ifference.html

Here's an article about the distinction between Streetcars and Light Rail. The first example in the graphic is how I picture the spacing of any expansions of the system - mixed traffic with stops closer together in the "Downtown" core, then separation from traffic and further spaced stops as it moves out of downtown. Lines on other roads could follow this model too, and could probably do with even fewer stops in the Downtown area in most cases.

Yep, for it to be a 'money maker' [[or not a huge money loser), it would need a lot of riders from the close in northern 'burbs.

The way to do that is a [[very) limited stop, fast train which could get to New Center as fast as driving down Woodward [[the few stops wouldn't take long and might even sync with the traffic lights.)

I kind of thought of Boston-Edison area, but don't know the Woodward neighborhoods well enough.

We'd see if old habits could be changed.

"Read the 'paper. Text. Relax. And leave the driving to us..."

[[rather than listening to the radio. hope folks don't text and drive on 75)

[Gistok]

While I agree with most of this post, I think doing anything with the People Mover in terms of making part of our system is not needed. The People Mover is a good shuttle for downtown and that's basically all it should be. If we want to have true mass transit, anything that is built needs to work of each other. Streetcar lines need to meet, commuter lines need to feed into those lines and with each other. The People Mover, with it's elevated-ness and stops, does not make it easy to transfer to ground transportation and since downtown is a no more than 20 minute walk across, I don't see why one would need it if any future streetcar line[[s) criss-cross downtown. We should let the PM continue what it has seem to become: a unique way for downtown visitors to see downtown and to shuttle people from games to parking. Let the streetcars be the movers of commuters, residents, and tourists who wish to visit outside of downtown.

In order for transit to flow, lines must be connected with transfer hubs. We cannot and should not let the People Mover do that, it's not 'feng shui' or logical.

Well I hate to say this.... but your point is moot.

The GCP M1 stops are already on either side of Woodward in front of the David Whitney Building entrance [[and PM station). So the tie in is already in place. Whether or not it gets used a lot is the question.

But if you're in town at a convention at Cobo.... and want to visit the DIA, but you don't have a rental car.... guess what.... the PM and M1 could be the logical combination between end stations.

Since the PM can be utilized by at least 2 million more passengers per year.... why shouldn't it be a part of the "system", if it makes sense for folks to use it?

Not saying they WILL use it... but they COULD....

[dtowncitylover]

Well I hate to say this.... but your point is moot.

The GCP M1 stops are already on either side of Woodward in front of the David Whitney Building entrance [[and PM station). So the tie in is already in place. Whether or not it gets used a lot is the question.

But if you're in town at a convention at Cobo.... and want to visit the DIA, but you don't have a rental car.... guess what.... the PM and M1 could be the logical combination between end stations.

Since the PM can be utilized by at least 2 million more passengers per year.... why shouldn't it be a part of the "system", if it makes sense for folks to use it?

Not saying they WILL use it... but they COULD....

I suppose but I don't think it would be good to build a transit system off of a 30 year old and already outdated piece of technology.

As well, does the People Mover still have the stamina to support larger passenger counts that a feeder system would bring?

[jmarie]

hope folks don't text and drive on 75)

An incredible number of people do in fact text and drive during rush hour on 75. I was looking around counting one day until I realized that half, or more, were. I decided I no longer wanted to know!


To add to the general conversation, I'd love if they expanded to at least Pontiac. I have a long commute and I'd much rather ride a train and read a book. I'd even use it if I had to drive half way. I think connecting to Flint would be truly ideal. I can imagine a lot of people would use it when going to Tigers/Lions/Wings games.

[canuck]

I suppose but I don't think it would be good to build a transit system off of a 30 year old and already outdated piece of technology.

As well, does the People Mover still have the stamina to support larger passenger counts that a feeder system would bring?

I think the age of the system has little to do with it; the capacity has. The London Underground dates back to 1863. The world's first subway train system. Needless to say, this incredible system has grown along with technological tweaks and major changes.

The People Mover is a good contribution to loop around the downtown. Tourists and ofice workers alike can profit from it but it is not a heavy thing. It serves a purpose that is different from a heavier use one like streetrail.

[LP_85]

To add to the general conversation, I'd love if they expanded to at least Pontiac. I have a long commute and I'd much rather ride a train and read a book. I'd even use it if I had to drive half way. I think connecting to Flint would be truly ideal. I can imagine a lot of people would use it when going to Tigers/Lions/Wings games.

Not sure a system like this would be very good for long distances all the way to Flint. I think a system that goes that far would have to carry more people at once - think Heavy Rail [[which can have something like a dozen or more cars per train) vs. Light Rail/Streetcar[[which might have 2-4 cars, so it can run on city streets).

Since the M1 will already connect to the Amtrak station in New Center, I'd love to see them build that out into a new, modern inter-modal transit center like the one they just built in Dearborn. That could handle commuter service up to Pontiac, and maybe points North. And hopefully commuter service to Ann Arbor like they'd been planning [[if those trains ever actually start moving).

[jmarie]

Not sure a system like this would be very good for long distances all the way to Flint. I think a system that goes that far would have to carry more people at once - think Heavy Rail [[which can have something like a dozen or more cars per train) vs. Light Rail/Streetcar[[which might have 2-4 cars, so it can run on city streets).

Since the M1 will already connect to the Amtrak station in New Center, I'd love to see them build that out into a new, modern inter-modal transit center like the one they just built in Dearborn. That could handle commuter service up to Pontiac, and maybe points North. And hopefully commuter service to Ann Arbor like they'd been planning [[if those trains ever actually start moving).

Sorry I wasn't clear with my thoughts. It would definitely need to be a commuter/heavy rail to connect to Flint. But ideally tied into the same system. There are a ton of people that commute from Flint to Auburn Hills, Troy, etc... that it could be sustainable. I think. Starts at Flint, stops around Clarkston/M-15, ends at Pontiac where you'd switch trains. As long as I am dreaming, it'd be even better if it was a bullet train like they have in Japan. 35-40 miles at 200 mph, plus counting a stop in Clarkston, you are in Pontiac in 15 minutes. People would be stupid to sit in traffic for an hour or more instead of sitting on a train.

[Hermod]

And while we're on the subject, here's what I'd do if we really were to go all out on a city-wide system. I'm not a transit expert, and I know it's total fantasy territory, it's just an interesting subject I've thought about a lot.

You'd basically have three separate "lines" that travel from the outer parts of the city to Downtown:

The Woodward Line: What's currently being built, plus an extension out to 8 Mile.

A Michigan/Jefferson line: This line would start on the West side of the city, run along Michigan Ave and include stops in Corktown and at the Rosa Parks Transit Center/People Mover, then turn down Washington and pass in front of Cobo, then run along Jefferson out toward the Pointes.

A Grand River/Gratiot line: A line along these routes could behave more like light rail in the neighborhoods, then in downtown could snake along like a streetcar on some of the one-way streets around Capitol Park and the Library, to connect the two avenues.

These three lines don't connect directly to one another, but could interact well with the People Mover - it would be ideal if there were a way to make that thing run in two directions at once.

I could also see a sort of "Midway Loop" running along Grand Blvd, connecting between the lines at their midpoints. Also maybe a North-South line along Livernois, connecting the Michigan & Grand River routes to more Northwestern points like U of D and the 7 Mile-Livernois area.

Would you be thinking something like this?

[Hermod]

Not sure a system like this would be very good for long distances all the way to Flint. I think a system that goes that far would have to carry more people at once - think Heavy Rail [[which can have something like a dozen or more cars per train) vs. Light Rail/Streetcar[[which might have 2-4 cars, so it can run on city streets).

Since the M1 will already connect to the Amtrak station in New Center, I'd love to see them build that out into a new, modern inter-modal transit center like the one they just built in Dearborn. That could handle commuter service up to Pontiac, and maybe points North. And hopefully commuter service to Ann Arbor like they'd been planning [[if those trains ever actually start moving).

You can also just have short trains running close together [[miss your train, wait five minutes). Short trains stop and start faster as well.

[Hermod]

Sorry I wasn't clear with my thoughts. It would definitely need to be a commuter/heavy rail to connect to Flint. But ideally tied into the same system. There are a ton of people that commute from Flint to Auburn Hills, Troy, etc... that it could be sustainable. I think. Starts at Flint, stops around Clarkston/M-15, ends at Pontiac where you'd switch trains. As long as I am dreaming, it'd be even better if it was a bullet train like they have in Japan. 35-40 miles at 200 mph, plus counting a stop in Clarkston, you are in Pontiac in 15 minutes. People would be stupid to sit in traffic for an hour or more instead of sitting on a train.

Can you envision?

[emu steve]

What I like about M-1 and this thread which has its basis in M-1 is that it lays out essentially what I consider a 'pilot' project to see if, in addition to meeting a real need to transport people along an important street, Woodward, whether it could lead to an expansion.

The old saying: "You have to start somewhere".

What planners need is 'journey to work' data for folks working in CBD, downtown, Midtown, and New Center.

How many come within the confines of the M-1 rail [[probably a small number, now, mostly folks shuttling between the various stops plus local residents)?

How many come from the area of Detroit along Woodward, north of the M-1 terminus?

How about southern Oakland County?

If I were Gilbert, I'd have an urban planning consulting group do a survey of his employees and determine exactly where they live and their receptivity to mass transit as their mode of travel to work. It isn't hard to do geospatial plotting to show exactly where a firm's employees live. OR simply have the HR folks do simple tabulations of employees by zip code. Not hard and would show if there are big concentrations of employees say in Southern Oakland County near the 8 Mile / Woodward area, for example. Would employees park and ride at 8 Mile/Woodward.

BC/BS, etc. could do similar. Similar for a few other large public and private employers.

This could be done to show if a line on Gratiot would be feasible. Are there many employees whose shortest path to work in downtown is via Gratiot to downtown? Would they take a Gratiot train?

Also, maybe private employers could give a public transportation subsidy for taking public transit, e.g., M-1 esp. if it were to get extended to say 8 mile. Public transit subsidies have been a popular way to get folks out of their cars and onto mass transit.

The important thing is that the downtown area has to have a large, very large employee base. All of these 'spoke' designs assume a central purpose of these mass transit systems is to get employees to and from distant points to the downtown for work [and also some for pleasure, e.g., sports, not that watching the Tigers is pleasurable these days. ]

Might add that in another thread [[?) we discussed that in Detroit the downtown commercial/employment areas extend [[adjacent north) because of Wayne State, the medical centers, New Center, etc. I believe other cities, e.g., Pittsburgh, were discussed with similar commercial patterns where significant commercial activity occurs adjacent to the downtown.

[123456789]

A subtle point was made in a Detnews story today about how potential retail stores on Woodward may hold back opening until after all the construction of Woodward and the rail line are completed. If that is the case then likely another two years before this supposed high end retail explosion of apple and nike stores.

[professorscott]

How would the express train overtake the all-stops trains? Isn't the system limited by to the speed of the slowest train?

If the trains run super-frequently like the streetcars did in the old days - the headways on Woodward and Grand River in the 1940s were 1 minute - then you can't do it on the same tracks. But M1 isn't talking about that kind of frequency. If the M1 trains are, let's say, 10 minutes apart, then you just let the southbound express onto the tracks just before an M1 trip starts, and it will have no other train to run into; the M1 train ahead of the one just mentioned will reach downtown a couple minutes ahead of the express.

So it takes timing and coordination, and you would have a hard time doing it at all without computer-aided dispatch, but it's not impossible, given that M1 is only about three and a half miles long, and will run on something like a 10 minute schedule, I think.

Of course, the big problem with extending it to the north in any manner at all, is money.