M-1 rail discussion

[emu steve]

Good discussion.

I was in Detroit over the 4th and traveled Woodward out to I believe 15 or 16 mile road. I was tempted to stop at the Basilica of the Little Flower and pray for our Tigers [[that was after Miggy went down).

My gut [[for what it is worth):

I see New Center is kind of like a transfer stop. Maybe a line extends north along Woodward into Oakland County BUT the original 3.3M line would terminate at that point [[New Center) so that frequent service along that 3.3M route could be maintained.

If service between New Center and the southern end point degrades the whole project will fail. Service, as folks here have said, has to be frequent and reliable. Folks will not wait in winter for a 10 minute late transit.

What makes any kind of mass transit work is frequent service based on 'probabilities': If service frequency is every 8 minutes, I can walk up to stop and 'guess' that my next bus/subway/etc. would be only 4 minutes wait [[on average). Riders don't mind that.

A single 8 or 9 mile loop route between 8 mile and downtown would not be good that 'average' 4 minute wait could extend to from say 2 minutes to maybe 15. Not good.

[iheartthed]

Thanks Professor,

I tend to agree with your thoughts on expansion. Are the tracks widths the same for LRT and Streetcar technology? If so, in theory, we could change out the vehicle type and get ourselves to a more expansive LRT system, right? This is assuming we grow a political will.

I think M1 is a light rail system. But it's implementation is as a street car [[versus a subway or elevated train).

[professorscott]

Thanks Professor,

I tend to agree with your thoughts on expansion. Are the tracks widths the same for LRT and Streetcar technology? If so, in theory, we could change out the vehicle type and get ourselves to a more expansive LRT system, right? This is assuming we grow a political will.

Nearly every streetcar and light rail system in North America, including M1, uses "American standard gauge" track, which I believe is a track gauge of 4' 8.5".

The only thing that might get in the way of a regional light-rail multi-car train such as the Portland light rail system is that platform lengths are limited by the lengths of city blocks downtown. The vehicles M1 is purchasing are perfectly capable of operating at light-rail speeds, and can be twinned if you have long enough platforms, with a slight modification. So you don't really have to change the vehicle type, even.

[mwilbert]

What makes any kind of mass transit work is frequent service based on 'probabilities': If service frequency is every 8 minutes, I can walk up to stop and 'guess' that my next bus/subway/etc. would be only 4 minutes wait [[on average). Riders don't mind that.

A single 8 or 9 mile loop route between 8 mile and downtown would not be good that 'average' 4 minute wait could extend to from say 2 minutes to maybe 15. Not good.

This is basically true, but it is less true than it used to be and probably more true than it will be in the future. With modern train tracking technology, signs displaying arrival times, and ubiquitous smartphones, you can tell more-or-less exactly when the next train will be. So you can do something other than stand at the station and wait. If you are coming from a car that you just parked, isn't so useful unless it lets you know you have time to pick up a coffee or something [[or if it lets you know you have to run to catch the train), but when you are leaving from an office or a shop or something, you can time things pretty well even if the train times are a bit irregular. Obviously if they are highly irregular it becomes irritating even if predictable, but my experience is that people are a lot more willing to put up with a delayed train when they know how much of a delay to expect.

[emu steve]

Indeed a good subway or light-rail system has signage about train frequencies. D.C. system does and it is highly reliable. Most of our subway system has approximately 6 minute service [[between trains) but that is complicated as a lot of trains have overlapped lines [[can take either of two lines to access 'common areas', e.g., in D.C. a blue and orange line may serve the same stops before diverging in Maryland and Virginia).

Most of our suburban stops are above ground so riders are used to standing outdoors even in winter. We can have waits of up to 12 minutes during non-rush hours and that can be long in winter.

If M-1 has true bus shelter stops, its wind blocking will be better than ours. Ours does have protection from the rain.

[Junjie]

This is basically true, but it is less true than it used to be and probably more true than it will be in the future. With modern train tracking technology, signs displaying arrival times, and ubiquitous smartphones, you can tell more-or-less exactly when the next train will be. So you can do something other than stand at the station and wait. If you are coming from a car that you just parked, isn't so useful unless it lets you know you have time to pick up a coffee or something [[or if it lets you know you have to run to catch the train), but when you are leaving from an office or a shop or something, you can time things pretty well even if the train times are a bit irregular. Obviously if they are highly irregular it becomes irritating even if predictable, but my experience is that people are a lot more willing to put up with a delayed train when they know how much of a delay to expect.

Agree with what you say but it's only true to a point. High frequency is really the most fundamental thing about transit. Even if you know when it's coming because you looked on your smartphone or whatever, missing the only train for 20 minutes because your boss called you in for a quick chat as you were walking by or because you forgot something at the checkout line, or whatever, gets old really quickly. It also assumes everyone has access to those technologies, which means you not only have to afford it but your battery has to not be dead etc.

On the other hand, if the trains come about every 10-12 minutes or less, nobody really cares. And more is better. But I do totally agree that things like info boards telling you time to next vehicle make a big difference in how annoying it is to wait and of course smartphone apps etc. are all to the good. Will they have these for M-1, do we know?

For those in this thread, I would highly recommend Human Transit by Jarrett Walker, which has a ton of great information on how transit works and the inherent tradeoffs made when designing a system.

http://www.humantransit.org/ [[his site but has a link to the book)

emu steve, if you haven't read The Great Society Subway, I think you'd really enjoy it. History of the DC Metro.

http://www.amazon.com/Great-Society-...771/ref=sr_1_1

[Junjie]

E.g., how many people traveled between say Farragut North and say Metro Center? [[back in those days most of the 'East' or 'old' downtown was basically a big nothing.) ...

The big difference here is that a lot of the INITIAL red line stops were in areas without a ton of commercial activity.

The Detroit M-1 line is will serve the most vibrant commercial areas of Detroit including Wayne State, the medical centers, etc. as well as the CBD and downtown and the entertainment and sports district near Fisher and Woodward.

Yeah, that's interesting. The only number I quickly found said there were just shy of 20,000 riders on Metro's first day of revenue service. [[They also had an earlier public unveiling where people could ride for free that drew 50,000.) By contrast, that segment of the Red Line now carries between 16,000-25,000 people in the single peak HOUR during the AM. Network effects really are something.

M-1 projects 5,000-8,000 per day. That seems conservative to me, but I really have no idea what to expect overall. Very, very curious to see how it does when it opens. And then how it's doing a year later when the arena is online.

[emu steve]

Yeah, that's interesting. The only number I quickly found said there were just shy of 20,000 riders on Metro's first day of revenue service. [[They also had an earlier public unveiling where people could ride for free that drew 50,000.) By contrast, that segment of the Red Line now carries between 16,000-25,000 people in the single peak HOUR during the AM. Network effects really are something.

M-1 projects 5,000-8,000 per day. That seems conservative to me, but I really have no idea what to expect overall. Very, very curious to see how it does when it opens. And then how it's doing a year later when the arena is online.

My guess, based on a couple DECADES of experience on the D.C. subway line, is that real ridership is for folks coming from residential areas, be it the suburbs or even within D.C., and then take the subway from 'home' [[or close to home) to their final destination.

I would like to see a 'collector' area, e.g., fairgrounds, where folks could drive, park and then take a light rail [[not yet planned or funded) to their final destination be it New Center, WSU, Arena District, CBD, etc.

For someone living in say Oakland County would they park their car at Fairgrounds and take a 25 minute ride to Comerica or the Arena?

Save time? Save money? Save hassle?

Or I'd like to see collector parking in New Center. Park [[cheap?) and hop on a M-1 and be at the arena is what 10 - 12 minutes [[???) or Campus Martius in 15 - 20.

[The worse thing about attending sporting events is spending two hours [[roundtrip) commute, getting stuck in traffic, paying too much for parking, etc. to attend a two hour say basketball game. Ugh!! Esp. on a weekday night.]

[mwilbert]

Agree with what you say but it's only true to a point. High frequency is really the most fundamental thing about transit. Even if you know when it's coming because you looked on your smartphone or whatever, missing the only train for 20 minutes because your boss called you in for a quick chat as you were walking by or because you forgot something at the checkout line, or whatever, gets old really quickly. It also assumes everyone has access to those technologies, which means you not only have to afford it but your battery has to not be dead etc.

On the other hand, if the trains come about every 10-12 minutes or less, nobody really cares. And more is better. But I do totally agree that things like info boards telling you time to next vehicle make a big difference in how annoying it is to wait and of course smartphone apps etc. are all to the good. Will they have these for M-1, do we know?

I was in no way trying to suggest that frequency is unimportant. Just that people continue to have more tools to deal with scheduling issues, and that those reduce the irritation of a delayed train a lot. I don't know anything about what they plan to do about making the train locations/arrival times available on-line, but the recently built systems I have seen have that capability, so I would be kind of surprised if they didn't. As far as the 10-12 minutes goes, it really depends upon what people get used to and expect. Obviously if you have very low service frequencies, fewer people will find the service attractive, but as long as the schedule is more-or-less adhered to, the ones who do use it will know what to expect, and that is why people find commuter rail acceptable despite low service frequencies.

[professorscott]

This is basically true, but it is less true than it used to be and probably more true than it will be in the future. With modern train tracking technology, signs displaying arrival times, and ubiquitous smartphones, you can tell more-or-less exactly when the next train will be. So you can do something other than stand at the station and wait. If you are coming from a car that you just parked, isn't so useful unless it lets you know you have time to pick up a coffee or something [[or if it lets you know you have to run to catch the train), but when you are leaving from an office or a shop or something, you can time things pretty well even if the train times are a bit irregular. Obviously if they are highly irregular it becomes irritating even if predictable, but my experience is that people are a lot more willing to put up with a delayed train when they know how much of a delay to expect.

The M1 Rail Business Plan includes "LED display boards" at each station, and I can't imagine why you'd include those except to display arrival times [[and, occasionally, service alert messages). The vehicles will come with AVL technology, at least it's hard to imagine they wouldn't; once you have that, making it available to the public in various ways - displays at the station, a smart phone app and so on - is child's play. And the person in charge is Mr. Childs, so that's good news.

[Junjie]

My guess, based on a couple DECADES of experience on the D.C. subway line, is that real ridership is for folks coming from residential areas, be it the suburbs or even within D.C., and then take the subway from 'home' [[or close to home) to their final destination.

I would like to see a 'collector' area, e.g., fairgrounds, where folks could drive, park and then take a light rail [[not yet planned or funded) to their final destination be it New Center, WSU, Arena District, CBD, etc.

For someone living in say Oakland County would they park their car at Fairgrounds and take a 25 minute ride to Comerica or the Arena?

Save time? Save money? Save hassle?

Or I'd like to see collector parking in New Center. Park [[cheap?) and hop on a M-1 and be at the arena is what 10 - 12 minutes [[???) or Campus Martius in 15 - 20.

[The worse thing about attending sporting events is spending two hours [[roundtrip) commute, getting stuck in traffic, paying too much for parking, etc. to attend a two hour say basketball game. Ugh!! Esp. on a weekday night.]

As far as where people are going, check out this link. Stations are sized by total entries, and you can click any station in the system and see where people went from that station. [[FYI it wouldn't work for me in Firefox.) Pretty neat to play with.

https://public.tableau.com/profile/p...9_0/Dashboard1

As to the second point... idk, I think I have to agree with what someone [[Bham?) said earlier. If you're going to drive to New Center and park, why not just stay in your car for 2 more exits and park by the arena/stadium? I would think this would add more time to the trip and with a family the M-1 fare two ways will eat most/all of your cost savings on parking. To me it goes back to the streetcar vs. rapid transit split: rapid transit would be good for this, but a streetcar probably won't be.

What I think M-1 will be excellent for:
- Local residents of downtown/midtown.
- Tourists who want to spend a couple days seeing what downtown/midtown have to offer. I can imagine a great weekend taking in sporting events/concerts, DIA, DSO, fun restaurants etc. and there is already a lot to offer along the route. Much easier without worrying about parking and car security. Take the new airport shuttle to downtown whenever that happens, or Amtrak, or leave your car parked in the hotel garage.
- "Extension" for formerly single-purpose trips. I was just meeting a friend downtown for dinner, but as long as we're here why not go check out that new bar in midtown? The family was just going to go to a Tigers game, but why not park a couple hours early and hit a museum and lunch too? Etc.
- And the knock-on effects for businesses of having more people exploring more of the area because it's opened up to them by M-1, rather than simply getting "in and out" with a single destination.

[emu steve]

As far as where people are going, check out this link. Stations are sized by total entries, and you can click any station in the system and see where people went from that station. [[FYI it wouldn't work for me in Firefox.) Pretty neat to play with.

https://public.tableau.com/profile/p...9_0/Dashboard1

As to the second point... idk, I think I have to agree with what someone [[Bham?) said earlier. If you're going to drive to New Center and park, why not just stay in your car for 2 more exits and park by the arena/stadium? I would think this would add more time to the trip and with a family the M-1 fare two ways will eat most/all of your cost savings on parking. To me it goes back to the streetcar vs. rapid transit split: rapid transit would be good for this, but a streetcar probably won't be.

What I think M-1 will be excellent for:
- Local residents of downtown/midtown.
- Tourists who want to spend a couple days seeing what downtown/midtown have to offer. I can imagine a great weekend taking in sporting events/concerts, DIA, DSO, fun restaurants etc. and there is already a lot to offer along the route. Much easier without worrying about parking and car security. Take the new airport shuttle to downtown whenever that happens, or Amtrak, or leave your car parked in the hotel garage.
- "Extension" for formerly single-purpose trips. I was just meeting a friend downtown for dinner, but as long as we're here why not go check out that new bar in midtown? The family was just going to go to a Tigers game, but why not park a couple hours early and hit a museum and lunch too? Etc.
- And the knock-on effects for businesses of having more people exploring more of the area because it's opened up to them by M-1, rather than simply getting "in and out" with a single destination.

Excellent. I played with some stations and it was obvious [[I think) that the great majority of trips were commutes from residence to some destination, most likely in D.C. but also things like Reagan airport, Pentagon, etc.

[emu steve]

For those who are transit fans, here is a very detailed article on the proposed light-rail,purple line, for suburban D.C. [[Maryland, crosses two counties).

It would inter-lace the subway system so that a person doesn't need to go all the way to e.g., downtown to make a trip 5 miles east or west. [[the Red line is like a big U going from Montgomery County to downtown D.C. to Prince Georges county). Or, another example, someone living in Bethesda would take the Purple Line instead of taking the Red Line to downtown and backout and transfer to the Green Line to College Park, home of the University of Maryland.).

It would also connect the very affluent Montgomery County communities with the poorer communities in Prince Georges, including some areas which have large immigrant communities.

If one zooms out on the map one will see that if built the Purple Line would give the subway/light rail system tremendous coverage in D.C. and the twoMaryland counties. Very impressive. It would save a lot of those trips where someone rides 15 - 20 miles when they want to go 5[[point-to-point).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...l/purple-line/

**********
For Detroit, the problem would be how to build their light-rail system out from downtown/midtown to the peripheries including those in Oakland County, say Dearborn, eastside of Detroit, etc. so that it isn't simply a 'niche' system to serve a highly concentrated population of riders.

[renf]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...y.html?hpid=z4

[royce]

As far as where people are going, check out this link. Stations are sized by total entries, and you can click any station in the system and see where people went from that station. [[FYI it wouldn't work for me in Firefox.) Pretty neat to play with.

https://public.tableau.com/profile/p...9_0/Dashboard1

As to the second point... idk, I think I have to agree with what someone [[Bham?) said earlier. If you're going to drive to New Center and park, why not just stay in your car for 2 more exits and park by the arena/stadium? I would think this would add more time to the trip and with a family the M-1 fare two ways will eat most/all of your cost savings on parking. To me it goes back to the streetcar vs. rapid transit split: rapid transit would be good for this, but a streetcar probably won't be.

What I think M-1 will be excellent for:
- Local residents of downtown/midtown.
- Tourists who want to spend a couple days seeing what downtown/midtown have to offer. I can imagine a great weekend taking in sporting events/concerts, DIA, DSO, fun restaurants etc. and there is already a lot to offer along the route. Much easier without worrying about parking and car security. Take the new airport shuttle to downtown whenever that happens, or Amtrak, or leave your car parked in the hotel garage.
- "Extension" for formerly single-purpose trips. I was just meeting a friend downtown for dinner, but as long as we're here why not go check out that new bar in midtown? The family was just going to go to a Tigers game, but why not park a couple hours early and hit a museum and lunch too? Etc.
- And the knock-on effects for businesses of having more people exploring more of the area because it's opened up to them by M-1, rather than simply getting "in and out" with a single destination.

One of the points I believe I mentioned somewhere in this thread is the fact that it would have been great if the M-1 Rail extended west along Grand Boulevard to cover the St. Regis Hotel, the Fisher Building, Henry Ford Hospital, and the Motown Museum. This would have definitely added to M-1's value for tourists and those living in Midtown and downtown.

[Hermod]

Nearly every streetcar and light rail system in North America, including M1, uses "American standard gauge" track, which I believe is a track gauge of 4' 8.5".

Probably all abandoned or torn up now, but many streetcar lines in the US were built to gauges different from the Brit/US standard of 56.5 inches [[the gauge of Roman chariot wheels which allowed for two horses asses to fit between the spans).

City fathers approving charters for the street cars demanded non-standard gauges as a condition of the charters because they were afraid that the steam railroads would buy up the streetcar companies and use the tracks to switch freight cars in the streets. So many streets cars were built to these differing gauges that there was a mini-standard known as "Pennsylvania Trolley Gauge".

[ParisianLesion]

"One of the points I believe I mentioned somewhere in this thread is the fact that it would have been great if the M-1 Rail extended west along Grand Boulevard to cover the St. Regis Hotel, the Fisher Building, Henry Ford Hospital, and the Motown Museum. This would have definitely added to M-1's value for tourists and those living in Midtown and downtown."

M-1 terminates within only a few blocks - only one block from St. Regis and Fisher - of all of these places. They seem pretty well covered to me, although I fully support an extension of any kind...

[mwilbert]

M-1 terminates within only a few blocks - only one block from St. Regis and Fisher - of all of these places. They seem pretty well covered to me, although I fully support an extension of any kind...

Agreed. People who won't walk a block to a transit stop are not likely to use transit at all. Henry Ford and the Motown Museum are basically within a quarter-mile of the stop [[measuring from the intersection of Woodward and Grand Blvd, not sure exactly where the stop will be), which is considered to be a standard distance for an area to be served by a stop.

Also agree that I would be happy to see extensions in a number of directions.

[animatedmartian]

I would be in favor of an extension down Michigan Avenue through Corktown, if only so it can finally be repaved. Like geez, I hardly even want to take a car down that stretch.

[Bobl]

I would be in favor of an extension down Michigan Avenue through Corktown, if only so it can finally be repaved. Like geez, I hardly even want to take a car down that stretch.

Ha! An expensive, but perhaps the only way to finally get that street paved?

[401don]

I would be in favor of an extension down Michigan Avenue through Corktown, if only so it can finally be repaved. Like geez, I hardly even want to take a car down that stretch.

Does anyone know the story behind this? I remember a discussion on here years ago that they were waiting for Tiger Stadium to be torn down. I understand it`s a state road and their responsibility? The Corktown merchants should be kicking up more of a public stink about it.

[royce]

Two blocks to somewhere is better to me than two blocks to nowhere. If the rail is going to stop at some point, why not make it stop at a stop where someone wants to get off? I can see there not being a big deal to leave the Fisher or St. Regis Hotel to walk to the M-1 Rail. However, Henry Ford Hospital and Motown Museum are a good haul from where the rail ends. Try walking that distance in the heat or extreme cold, not something most people look forward to. The median is that for stations and Henry Ford Hospital and the Motown Museum are two desirable locations. Why not have rail go there than two blocks north of the boulevard/Woodward intersection.

[dtowncitylover]

I can't say I'm too surprised. The work is actually being done and the money invested so I'm not too frustrated. I'd rather them take their time and make sure everything is in order than rush it and go over budget.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...rban/31157583/

[ndavies]

Two blocks to somewhere is better to me than two blocks to nowhere. If the rail is going to stop at some point, why not make it stop at a stop where someone wants to get off? I can see there not being a big deal to leave the Fisher or St. Regis Hotel to walk to the M-1 Rail. However, Henry Ford Hospital and Motown Museum are a good haul from where the rail ends. Try walking that distance in the heat or extreme cold, not something most people look forward to. The median is that for stations and Henry Ford Hospital and the Motown Museum are two desirable locations. Why not have rail go there than two blocks north of the boulevard/Woodward intersection.

The train barn [[Penske tech center) is going to be at that end of the line. Chandler and Woodward. 2 blocks north of Grand Blvd.

[SpartanDawg]

Few things I've noticed

I know originally the plan in midtown was to have parking on the southbound side of woodward, and on the northbound side the outer most lane would have been the m-1 rail so they were going to eliminate parking on the northbound side, but keep it on the southbound side... a lot of people were disappointed in this..

HOWEVER... i've noticed south of Mack on woodward in the portion of m-1 that is complete [[the northbound side of woodward south of Mack from about where the redwings arena construction starts right up to mack avenue) .. it seems as though there is going to be available parking!... to the right of the m-1 rail lane there are various red brick sections that look like the old outermost parking lane of woodward... so it looks as though parking will be available on BOTH sides of woodward in midtown like how it always was... anyone have any updates or seen the same thing I did??

second..

JUST south of mack in the completed section of m-1... there is a big area that is just dirt... looks like that is where the Mack rail stop is going to be constructed! makes sense that it would stop just before the traffic light.. they'll time it so that when the rail pulls up to the station the light will be red... people will get off and people will also board... as soon as the doors close when all the passengers have got on the light will turn green... so you don't notice the stopping at lights and think it's just stopping because you're at a station.. good design