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  1. #76

    Default Streetcars, Trolleys, Buses and Trains...

    Light Rail Vehicles (LRV) in San Diego are trolleys that run in tandem – typically three of them are hooked up together – each LRV seats 64 passengers and can easily accommodate 36-56 standees; or 100-120 total. “Crush Load” capacity for special events is 150-163 riders per trolley. There are 3 lines, two of those lines lumber through downtown San Diego - 3 trolley cars long. Trolleys run every 15 minutes, 6 days a week, every 30 minutes on Sunday, all trolley stops are serviced by buses. There is however no comparison between buses and trolleys, trolleys have a larger capacity by far.

    Streetcars or Street-trolleys are not trolleys at all. In San Diego they are filled with tourists, share the road with cars and run on gasoline engines. These vehicles gingerly cruise around town in open air designed mini buses, which are constructed to look like trolleys. Stopping often and taking in all the sights; the trip is accompanied by the driver giving an oral history of the salacious details of San Diego’s old Stingaree and Chinatown.
    As opposed to light rail which has limited stops, is way faster, and is climate controlled – the windows don’t even open. Once the trolleys clear the downtown area, they run 35 – 50 miles per hour. Trolleys will deviate from the road as well, they run wherever the track takes them, one trolley runs along the shoreline for several stops, all the while providing a great view of Navy Base San Diego – which is home of the Navy’s Pacific Fleet, the ships are so cool. The last stop is the U.S. Mexican border.
    Trolley tracks are different from train tracks, trolley tracks are wider.
    As an employer the MTS trolley has a staff of nearly 500 full-time employees.
    As an employer MTS Bus Operations has 490 Bus Drivers.
    Plus a support staff of
    178 Maintenance
    70 Administrative
    26 Clerical

    Trolley
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    Streetcar
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    Last edited by SDCC; April-06-14 at 12:08 PM. Reason: spelllling

  2. #77

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 27 Mile View Post
    Whole Foods in midtown is a heavily subsidized grocery store with private security and tons of free press. It's was a low risk PR project for Whole Foods. It's nothing like this M-1 project.
    I'm not sure what you mean. All three components of your statement are factually incorrect. I don't know if the thing will be successful or not, but I feel like one of us is sorely misinformed.

    M-1 is a heavily subsidized transit project which will get tons of private security and is already getting tons of free press.

  3. #78

    Default

    Someone a bit up the thread surmised that the operating funds for M1 Rail will cause less money to be available to DDOT; at least that's what I took from the comment. The M1 Rail consortium has pledged to fund operations for the first ten years. The grand scheme is that by then the RTA will be fully functional and able to take it over. If that doesn't happen then I can foresee the system continuing to be funded in some way by downtown development, such as by a tax-increment finance authority. But in no way is there any intent for the City per se to fund operations - which is the only way you could reasonably link it to any decrease in DDOT funding.

  4. #79

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by professorscott View Post
    Someone a bit up the thread surmised that the operating funds for M1 Rail will cause less money to be available to DDOT; at least that's what I took from the comment.
    I was unsure where any operating costs would be shouldered above and beyond fare/advertising revenue. I had surmised that DDOT would pick up the gap but stand corrected. Thank you.

  5. #80

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 27 Mile View Post
    As sad as it is (that police are so lethargic), private security is a good idea in every Detroit nabe. $140M on 3 miles of Woodward is not, when an alternative exists for 1/10 of the dough.
    You're not from these parts, are you? "Nabe"? Is that how they talk up north?

  6. #81

    Default

    http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...l#incart_river


    not sure if I should've started a new thread or not.. but we're getting into the real meat of construction this summer. campus martius construction begins monday ... however at least one lane of traffic will be open at all times and pedestrian access will always be available to the park

    also noteworthy is that THEY ARE ADDING MID BLOCK PEDESTRIAN CROSSING ON WOODWARD IN MIDTOWN ... thank you god. i was so sick of the super blocks in midtown really negatively effecting the walkability of the area. this is a great addition to the plan..


    "Midtown will also see a couple of mid-block pedestrian crossings, like those used in Royal Oak or Ann Arbor. Childs said the new additions are being added to meet the requests dealing with mobility requests from the neighborhood.
    The pedestrian crossings will have safety zones in the middle of Woodward. Childs didn't have specifics, but he seemed to think that while the mid-block crossings will be like those seen in other Metro Detroit cities, they will be safer.
    "


    lastly.. they are ON TIME with their schedule.. and construction will be COMPLETE in September of 2016. however there will be a 2 or 3 month TESTING only period, where it won't be open to the public quite yet. nice to see the project is still on time as many people i have talked to are still skeptical 'it's not gonna be done until 2018 just watch'.. good to see the new detroit moving forward
    Last edited by SpartanDawg; April-16-15 at 02:02 PM.

  7. #82

    Default

    When will Woodward be repaved? (mill and pave? Is that the term?).

    Do I take this literally (that come Fall, 2015 the Woodward will look 'brand new' - e.g., milled and paved)? That is when Detroit will host the 2015 World Series.

    Childs said he expects to be out of Midtown by the fall of 2015. Once M-1's gone, Woodward Avenue will be complete new.
    "When we move out of the way, you're going to be driving on a new road," he said.

  8. #83

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanDawg View Post
    http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...l#incart_river
    also noteworthy is that THEY ARE ADDING MID BLOCK PEDESTRIAN CROSSING ON WOODWARD IN MIDTOWN ... thank you god. i was so sick of the super blocks in midtown really negatively effecting the walkability of the area. this is a great addition to the plan..
    stopping 6 lanes of traffic including buses and the street rail just so some jerk can cross the street without walking the 30 ft x2 to cross at the light. very excited for that.

  9. #84

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by compn View Post
    stopping 6 lanes of traffic including buses and the street rail just so some jerk can cross the street without walking the 30 ft x2 to cross at the light. very excited for that.
    Boo-hoo. Traffic through a dense urban area has to slow down because of pedestrians.

  10. #85

    Default

    Mid-block crossings when intersections are at a considerable distance from each other are an important safety feature, and it is even more important to provide, as Mr. Childs indicates, a "refuge island" so people who move fairly slowly - some elderly people, some disabled people and so forth - have the opportunity to cross the street in two segments rather than all at once.

    A poster was concerned about the effect on traffic, but typically in downtown zones any such crossing is timed in coordination with the lights at nearby intersections to provide a reasonably smooth flow of traffic. We live, you know, in a city with a lot of engineers, and this sort of thing isn't even particularly complicated.

  11. #86

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by professorscott View Post
    Mid-block crossings when intersections are at a considerable distance from each other are an important safety feature, and it is even more important to provide, as Mr. Childs indicates, a "refuge island" so people who move fairly slowly - some elderly people, some disabled people and so forth - have the opportunity to cross the street in two segments rather than all at once.

    A poster was concerned about the effect on traffic, but typically in downtown zones any such crossing is timed in coordination with the lights at nearby intersections to provide a reasonably smooth flow of traffic. We live, you know, in a city with a lot of engineers, and this sort of thing isn't even particularly complicated.
    Prof Scott: Any knowledge of when and how will Woodward be resurfaced (is that mill and pave?)?

    Re-doing Woodward itself would be a minor miracle and would make the entire area look much, much better.

  12. #87

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by emu steve View Post
    Prof Scott: Any knowledge of when and how will Woodward be resurfaced (is that mill and pave?)?
    Unfortunately I don't have the inside scoop on any of MDOT's part of the project, and this is that, but I have a hard time imagining it would be anything less than mill and pave.

    The most fascinating part of all this, to me, is that the streetcars will be off-wire for much (most, I think) of the trip in both directions. I have heard of that being done before but I haven't actually seen it.

  13. #88

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by professorscott View Post
    Unfortunately I don't have the inside scoop on any of MDOT's part of the project, and this is that, but I have a hard time imagining it would be anything less than mill and pave.

    The most fascinating part of all this, to me, is that the streetcars will be off-wire for much (most, I think) of the trip in both directions. I have heard of that being done before but I haven't actually seen it.

    Yep I heard the only part where it is on wire is just north of I-75 to Canfield in midtown. M1 has said it is approximately 40% on wire and 60% off wire. However as a bonus to the area with it being on wire, they are getting all new streetlights that will support the wires as well as act as streetlights. The lights that are currently there that will be removed in that section will be placed in other areas around midtown

  14. #89

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanDawg View Post
    Yep I heard the only part where it is on wire is just north of I-75 to Canfield in midtown. M1 has said it is approximately 40% on wire and 60% off wire.
    Yep. Straight from the horse's mouth (the FAQ section at m-1rail.com): "The streetcars will require on-wire operation between Henry and Canfield; it will be off-wire everywhere else along the line."

  15. #90

    Default

    Someone e-mailed that M-1 is now expected to be completed late 2016 instead of 2017.

    new news? Old news?

  16. #91

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by emu steve View Post
    Someone e-mailed that M-1 is now expected to be completed late 2016 instead of 2017.

    new news? Old news?

    i think old news? i've always thought that for some reason. I think i've heard it before.

    more specifically, construction will be COMPLETE by september of 2016. However for two months or so, the public will not be allowed to use it while they test, test, test, and test it some more to make sure it meets all federal guidelines and regulations.

    so look for it to be operational by november of 2016.

  17. #92

    Default

    Drove along Woodward today and wow! The old street car tracks were sticking out of the ground. I see the tracks along Michigan and Trumbull all the time, but to actually see the tracks that ran along Woodward was kind of exciting. It's kinda like digging up dinosaur bones. Sweet!

  18. #93

    Default

    M-1 Rail May Community Advisory Council Meeting - may 14, 2015 - Michigan state university detroit center - 3408 Woodward - 6:00 - 7:30pm

  19. #94

    Default

    I found this piece about new tram development in the United States. The writer is from Toronto, he sets out to Cinci, Atl, Tampa, and Detroit to research each city's upcoming tram lines. I've got to like his take on Detroit's strategy compared to the other 3. He views the Detroit line as the only one with true promise for the future. It makes sense after he explains the way Portland positioned their initial line. Detroit seems to be mimicking this approach.

    http://www.theguardian.com/cities/20...building-trams


    I see that Gilbert purchased the naming rights for the line. No specifics on a name, or how much he paid though.

    http://www.mlive.com/business/detroi...l#incart_river

  20. #95

    Default

    [QUOTE=Dbest;479644]I found this piece about new tram development in the United States. The writer is from Toronto, he sets out to Cinci, Atl, Tampa, and Detroit to research each city's upcoming tram lines. I've got to like his take on Detroit's strategy compared to the other 3. He views the Detroit line as the only one with true promise for the future. It makes sense after he explains the way Portland positioned their initial line. Detroit seems to be mimicking this approach.

    http://www.theguardian.com/cities/20...building-trams

    It's interesting this writer is from Toronto because while the U.S. cities listed are hoping to attract ridership and development along the lines, Toronto's problem is just the opposite. The streetcars are jammed. Part of the reason they run slow is because they are so full it takes a great deal of time for people to enter and exit. Many times 2 or 3 cars are running back-to-back. Detroit won't be dealing with these problems for a long, long time.

  21. #96

    Default

    Despite many folks hope that the line would be longer (much longer) than 3.1 miles, 3.1 miles is the best chance for immediate success.

    A longer route would probably decrease service quality (timeliness) and probably lead to a bad revenue/expense ratios (marginal expenses > marginal revenue).

    As the article states, "the Detroit M-1 Rail Line runs in a straight 5.3-kilometre corridor, connecting Detroitís financial, cultural, entertainment, and educational hubs that line Woodward Avenue."

    If that isn't tailor made for a streetcar line in Detroit what is??? Those areas have the highest concentration of people who are 'passing through' be it for work, entertainment, education, medical care, etc. The 'population' swells in those areas (along Woodward) with people who are there for part of the day but do not live there. Big cities like NYC has 'resident population' and the 'day population' which can be much, much larger as people come into the city to work.

    I'd still like to see parking around the New Center stop so that folks can drive down Woodward or even 94, park, and take the M-1 rail to whatever their terminus is.

    For those who don't like pro sports owners, wouldn't it be nice to pay a few bucks to park near New Center and take the rail to Tigers/Lions/Red Wings rather than pay 15, 20, 30 bucks to a sports tycoon who owns all of that surface parking?
    Last edited by emu steve; May-25-15 at 10:40 AM.

  22. #97

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by emu steve View Post
    Despite many folks hope that the line would be longer (much longer) than 3.1 miles, 3.1 miles is the best chance for immediate success.

    A longer route would probably decrease service quality (timeliness) and probably lead to a bad revenue/expense ratios (marginal expenses > marginal revenue).

    As the article states, "the Detroit M-1 Rail Line runs in a straight 5.3-kilometre corridor, connecting Detroit’s financial, cultural, entertainment, and educational hubs that line Woodward Avenue."

    If that isn't tailor made for a streetcar line in Detroit what is??? Those areas have the highest concentration of people who are 'passing through' be it for work, entertainment, education, medical care, etc. The 'population' swells in those areas (along Woodward) with people who are there for part of the day but do not live there. Big cities like NYC has 'resident population' and the 'day population' which can be much, much larger as people come into the city to work.

    I'd still like to see parking around the New Center stop so that folks can drive down Woodward or even 94, park, and take the M-1 rail to whatever their terminus is.

    For those who don't like pro sports owners, wouldn't it be nice to pay a few bucks to park near New Center and take the rail to Tigers/Lions/Red Wings rather than pay 15, 20, 30 bucks to a sports tycoon who owns all of that surface parking?
    As far as that last paragraph, I can see that happening if there are a few things going on at the same time down there and parking is real tight (as has happened in the past) For a regular baseball, football game or concert or something I might do it but probably wouldn't.

  23. #98

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by softailrider View Post
    As far as that last paragraph, I can see that happening if there are a few things going on at the same time down there and parking is real tight (as has happened in the past) For a regular baseball, football game or concert or something I might do it but probably wouldn't.
    I can see how folks would do their 'decision making' on it:

    How much would I save? How much, if any, would I save if 3 or 4 are going (sharing parking)?

    How much time, if any, would I save by parking further out and taking M-1?

    And as you indicate, peak times, e.g., Thanksgiving or multiple overlapping events, etc. change the equation a lot...

  24. #99

    Default

    Surprised that no one has commented on this article:

    http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...-up-new-center

    "Mosey said New Center's promise is becoming more apparent now that the M-1 Rail project, the 3.3-mile rail loop between Congress Street and Grand Boulevard in New Center, is under construction and investment will be pushed north along Woodward Avenue."

    "Midtown Detroit Inc., of which Mosey is the executive director, purchased 11 buildings last month in New Center and envisions a catalytic, high-impact mixed-use redevelopment there that could jump-start New Center, the neighborhood just north of the reinvestment booms in Midtown and downtown."

  25. #100

    Default

    and let there be streetcars for that M-1 rail...

    http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...NEWS/305249984

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