M-1 rail discussion

[Bham1982]

i'm glad I don't live there- it's an idiotic approach to community planning..

Yeah, Bloomfield Hills is a real hellhole; the woods, hills, lakes and especially Cranbrook really detract from the atmosphere; better to pave over with more concrete and wide roads and then we can run an empty bus every two hours like in "progressive" communities.

[mwilbert]

i'm glad I don't live there- it's an idiotic approach to community planning..

There is a place in a metro area for towns like Bloomfield Hills. It would be idiotic to try to make the whole area like that, but I think it is a very attractive town, even though it isn't the sort of place I would want to live. Different people want and need and can afford different things.

[ABetterDetroit]

Detroit would benifit greatly to having more Palmer parks and Indian villages. Rich people pay high property taxes, income is what the city needs more than anything. Get more income and you can actually afford your public transportation.

[wolverine]

Detroit would benifit greatly to having more Palmer parks and Indian villages. Rich people pay high property taxes, income is what the city needs more than anything. Get more income and you can actually afford your public transportation.

Well in most cases the Feds and state and sometimes region would foot the bill for construction. So everyone pays.

As for operation, that would come out of sales taxes or gas taxes. And I don't even remember if Michigan allows these types of sales tax overlays. You could use property taxes as a source of funding but that would get the most push-back from residents. I've felt that downtown buildings would be in tax overlay districts to pay a bit more. TIF funds are used to build new rail stations, but that's a gamble if they are really hoping for new housing and businesses to go up near the station.

[27 Mile]

Can someone please explain why you're spending $140M on 3 miles of M-1 when two top-of-the-line natural gas buses could run the same route for $700k each?

[corktownyuppie]

Can someone please explain why you're spending $140M on 3 miles of M-1 when two top-of-the-line natural gas buses could run the same route for $700k each?

When you say, "why you're spending"...who exactly do you mean by "you're"? Detroit's not really the one paying for this thing. Like it or not, rich people like trains, not buses. The project required a lot of private funding and was led by private interests.

You know the golden rule? Those with the gold...make the rules.

I know you're not a fan of the train, or the city around it. But you can't blame Detroit residents for this one. Talk to Ilitch, Gilbert, and Co.

[jt1]

When you say, "why you're spending"...who exactly do you mean by "you're"? Detroit's not really the one paying for this thing. Like it or not, rich people like trains, not buses. The project required a lot of private funding and was led by private interests.

You know the golden rule? Those with the gold, makes the rules.

I know you're not a fan of the train, or the city around it. But you can't blame Detroit residents for this one. Talk to Ilitch, Gilbert, and Co.

That will, however change the response. If Detroit is paying for it then it would be the city stealing money from the suburbs to waste on a train. But....since it is funded primarily by the private sector then the same argument can't hold lest people can't assign the blame to the city.

I'd like to know why we are wasting state dollars expanding roads at 27 mile road expecting growth before it is there. That is a hell of a lot more idiotic than anything spent on the train.

[mwilbert]

Can someone please explain why you're spending $140M on 3 miles of M-1 when two top-of-the-line natural gas buses could run the same route for $700k each?

First, what CTY said.

Second, we already have buses running down Woodward. Just buying some CNG buses wouldn't really change anybody's perception of anything. Have you ever ridden a top-of-the-line CNG bus? It is just like riding a bus! If you wanted to run BRT on that route, it would take a lot more than buying a couple of buses.

People are paying for a streetcar because they want a streetcar.

[Hermod]

First, what CTY said.

Second, we already have buses running down Woodward. Just buying some CNG buses wouldn't really change anybody's perception of anything. Have you ever ridden a top-of-the-line CNG bus? It is just like riding a bus! If you wanted to run BRT on that route, it would take a lot more than buying a couple of buses.

People are paying for a streetcar because they want a streetcar.

Yes, we want a nice comfortable streetcar with air conditioning in the summer.

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[27 Mile]

It is $140M to travel 3 miles. The same 3 miles could be traveled very comfortably for $700k per top-of-the-line bus. I don't believe it's all private funding, but either way, I can't wrap my head around spending 10x what brand spanking new buses would accomplish. It is literally the People Mover 2.0.

[corktownyuppie]

It is literally the People Mover 2.0. Detroit has about 1000 better uses for thatkind of money, no matter where the funding is coming from.

Ah. That's where your logic fails, my friend. Even if you're right that it's the People Mover 2.0, Detroit doesn't get to come up with 1000 better uses for that kind of money because it's not their money.

Here in Corktown, there is talk of having all the local businesses chip in some monthly cost to pay for private security to patrol Michigan Avenue.

Whether we think that's a good idea or not really doesn't really matter all that much. I'm sure some pensioners would say, "HEY, rather than spend all of that money paying for new rent-a-cops, why don't you pay the ACTUAL RETIRED COPS what they deserve."

And, yes, they'd have a point. But it doesn't matter. It's private money. So yes, I can think of 1000 things Detroit could better use the money for than a private train. I can also think of 1000 better things you could be doing with grocery money.

But none of that matters.

[27 Mile]

First, what CTY said.

Second, we already have buses running down Woodward. Just buying some CNG buses wouldn't really change anybody's perception of anything. Have you ever ridden a top-of-the-line CNG bus? It is just like riding a bus! If you wanted to run BRT on that route, it would take a lot more than buying a couple of buses.

People are paying for a streetcar because they want a streetcar.

So $140M to change a perception? Interesting. I have ridden both a street car and a bus. Both accomplished the same thing, i.e., got me from A to B. They didn't impact my perception of the city I rode them in one way or the other.

[27 Mile]

As sad as it is [[that police are so lethargic), private security is a good idea in every Detroit nabe. $140M on 3 miles of Woodward is not, when an alternative exists for 1/10 of the dough.

[Hermod]

But, but a streetcar is soooo much better than a bus. They have stops in nice comfortables stations with elegant dining and exquisite little boutiques for shopping while you wait.

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[corktownyuppie]

As sad as it is [[that police are so lethargic), private security is a good idea in every Detroit nabe. $140M on 3 miles of Woodward is not, when an alternative exists for 1/10 of the dough.

Well as long as you stop blaming Detroit politicians for this I can't argue with you. Trust me, there are plenty of Detroiters who are wondering why that money isn't being spent better, too. Especially the ones 40 minutes away from downtown trying to understand why they can't get enough police coverage.

[jt1]

Clearly you should get in touch with DPD, Ilitch, Penske, Gilbert, DWSD and every other person associated with M1 or public entity in the city and explain how they should do their job or spend their money.

[27 Mile]

Currently $25M is public funding. And since the total cost is expected to be $500M, I suspect they'll be leaning on the government to finish it. Also, who pays to run the thing? Taxpayers?

Who pays for it doesn't bother me so much as the entire thing will be yet another embarrassment for the region.

[DetroitPlanner]

Can someone please explain why you're spending $140M on 3 miles of M-1 when two top-of-the-line natural gas buses could run the same route for $700k each?

Much of this cost is to reconstruct the roadways and bridges along the route. In addition Woodward will be streetscaped up through and beyond New Center. Anyone who has driven on this stretch of Woodward will agree that the road and its sidewalks need a lot of help to make them attractive and functional.

The cost of the train and track portion is well under $100 million total; with roughly 70 percent of the cost being picked up by private corporations.

You are barking up the wrong tree when you compare modes in this forum. No one wants to accept anything but a train.

[corktownyuppie]

Currently $25M is public funding. And since the total cost is expected to be $500M, I suspect they'll be leaning on the government to finish it. Also, who pays to run the thing? Taxpayers?

Who pays for it doesn't bother me so much as the entire thing will be yet another embarrassment for the region.

I believe that the $25MM you're referring to comes from the feds.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2502335.html

I don't believe that the project will be able to operate "cost neutral", as all transit projects require public operating funding [[just as our roads, ahem, are requiring about $500 million in state funding to fix potholes). I believe that the gap in operating funding would come out of the DDOT.

According to Penske, one of the major investors...

The rail will serve 6,000 riders a day initially and eventually grow to 10,000. The trains will have 11 stops connecting the city’s downtown, Midtown, New Center and the Amtrak Station. Trains will run every seven to 10 minutes to the largest job centers, visitor destinations, medical facilities and educational institutions, he said.The rail is expected to have about 1.8 million riders annually, when it starts service in 2016, officials have said.


From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz2y3YhY7EQ

Will he be right? Will he be wrong? Who knows. But you don't usually bet against Penske and win. People said for years that Whole Foods would be a joke and that criminals would rob the place blind or prey on their customers. Hasn't happened yet, and the business got to be so much that they've had to expand their hours.

I have no idea whether or not M-1 will be successful. But I know enough to wait and see.

[brizee]

I'm pretty sure 27 Mile is a troll with the same name from detroit.curbed.com.

Bombs any development news regarding Detroit with trolling and bad news scenarios.

He's a little more subtle here, but his output is pretty similar.

[mwilbert]

So $140M to change a perception? Interesting. I have ridden both a street car and a bus. Both accomplished the same thing, i.e., got me from A to B. They didn't impact my perception of the city I rode them in one way or the other.

Of course it is possible the folks funding the bulk of this are mistaken. But possibly just because two transit modes can get you from A to B doesn't mean they are equivalent. We could have regular ox-cart service which would also get you from A to B, but it would be a rather different service. To get bus service between Downtown and New Center we wouldn't need to spend anything, because there is already bus service--by your logic buying CNG buses wouldn't make any sense either.

Since the M1 will be operational fairly soon, we will actually be able to see how successful it is, and judge whether the return on that investment was good, mediocre, or poor, not that I expect everyone to agree on which it is.

[mwilbert]

I'm pretty sure 27 Mile is a troll with the same name from detroit.curbed.com.

Bombs any development news regarding Detroit with trolling and bad news scenarios.

He's a little more subtle here, but his output is pretty similar.

So far he is only a bit trollish, but perhaps his future output will be more definitive one way or the other.

[corktownyuppie]

Of course it is possible the folks funding the bulk of this are mistaken. But possibly just because two transit modes can get you from A to B doesn't mean they are equivalent. We could have regular ox-cart service which would also get you from A to B, but it would be a rather different service. To get bus service between Downtown and New Center we wouldn't need to spend anything, because there is already bus service--by your logic buying CNG buses wouldn't make any sense either.

Exactly. It's gonna be interesting if the demand for this service is there. If we go and look at the Whole Foods debate from 5 years ago, I remember hearing a lot of the same things. And, to some extent, their basis was sincere and accurate. Despite the rousing success of Whole Foods in Midtown, I'm fairly confident that if a Farmer Jack opened in that same location, the results would be very, very different.

Since the M1 will be operational fairly soon, we will actually be able to see how successful it is, and judge whether the return on that investment was good, mediocre, or poor, not that I expect everyone to agree on which it is.

That's where I'm at with it, too.

[27 Mile]

...by your logic buying CNG buses wouldn't make any sense either.

Natural gas buses offer the same improvement of optics, i.e. visual perception, over the current run down buses at 1/10 of the price. You guys are the ones claiming this is a perception project. I think it's idiotic through and through, but if some old guys are convinced it improves the optics okay. There are natural gas buses that accomplish the same for $700k or less. Gilbert might make a lot of money slanging refis and mortgages but that doesn't make him an expert on urban renewal. The scope of someone's genius is quite narrow. This M-1 is such a horrible idea it feels like a really long prank.

[27 Mile]

Whole Foods in midtown is a heavily subsidized grocery store with private security and tons of free press. It's was a low risk PR project for Whole Foods. It's nothing like this M-1 project.