M-1 rail discussion

[professorscott]

BTW, why are the stations being done piecemeal as opposed to one being completely done at one point and then the next one being completely done and so on?

Because it's cheaper. If you were building a dozen houses all at once, you wouldn't build one house, then the next, and so on. You'd do all the foundations at once, so your foundation guys only had to be on site for a short time, then you'd frame all the houses for the same reason, and so on. Same deal here.

[Detroit Stylin]

Plus its faster

Because it's cheaper. If you were building a dozen houses all at once, you wouldn't build one house, then the next, and so on. You'd do all the foundations at once, so your foundation guys only had to be on site for a short time, then you'd frame all the houses for the same reason, and so on. Same deal here.

[royce]

A few moments ago I went back to the very first post of this thread. Looking at the rendering I can see why I was under the impression that the southbound lanes would not be where the parking lane is. In the rendering showing Orchestra Hall/Max Fisher Music Center, you can clearly see that the rail lines are in the second lane from the curb or third lane from the left-center lane. Actually, you can see what would be a station jutting out from the curb. Learning later that the southbound lane would use the parking lane, I voiced my concerns. An additional criticism I have speaks to the fact that many facets of this project weren't made public. Why weren't there renderings of what the stations would like? Why wasn't there a virtual video showing how the entire rail system would function? When DDOT proposed a rail line to Eight Mile, they produced a video right away for the public to see how it would function. Why didn't M1 Rail do the same thing? Is it about a public entity having to be transparent and a private entity not having to be? Just some thoughts to ponder when we [[city/citizens) let a private entity use public property do what they want.

[warsaw7]

Plus its faster

Hmmm explain your logic on how it is faster. Those shells have been sitting like that for months.

[MSUguy]

Hmmm explain your logic on how it is faster. Those shells have been sitting like that for months.

Is it really necessary to explain why building something in an assemby line fashion is faster? Just thinking logically with the season there may be some items they're waiting until later to install.

[professorscott]

An additional criticism I have speaks to the fact that many facets of this project weren't made public. Why weren't there renderings of what the stations would like? Why wasn't there a virtual video showing how the entire rail system would function? When DDOT proposed a rail line to Eight Mile, they produced a video right away for the public to see how it would function. Why didn't M1 Rail do the same thing? Is it about a public entity having to be transparent and a private entity not having to be? Just some thoughts to ponder when we [[city/citizens) let a private entity use public property do what they want.

Couple of points. First of all, M1 Rail had to follow the Federal "NEPA" process [[essentially, an environmental review that ironically uses enough paper to cost us several trees) which is a very public process with many opportunities for feedback. Having said that, the location of the tracks comes down to a lot of picayune details about utilities and turn lanes and a lot of other things. MDOT, which is a public entity, was heavily involved through that whole part of the process.

Regarding the pie-in-the-sky DDOT "project", ALL they produced was a video. Sorry, Royce, but those of us who worked on this project were too busy with actual planning, development and funding to bother to produce a video of something that was never going to be anything more than a video.

As far as using public property to do "what they want", MDOT was heavily involved in, and approved, the "what they want". In fact one of the things we [[M1) didn't get was exclusive use of a lane; we wanted that, but MDOT would not approve it - no blame here, just letting you know - which is why the streetcar will run in mixed traffic.

The private entities who funded most of the construction, and will fund the operation, of QLine spent tens of millions of dollars, perhaps as much as a hundred million, of their own money to provide something which is essentially a public-benefit projects that, everywhere else in the world, taxpayers are entirely on the hook for. Certainly attention to detail is called for and I understand detailed critiques of some of the decisions that were made [[the lane alignment, station locations and so on) but the vitriolic criticism, the us vs. them of this, just astonishes me. If you don't like QLine, raise a hundred million dollars yourself and build a different one the way you like. Do East Jefferson; I think it would be a wonderful project.

Geez.

[warsaw7]

Is it really necessary to explain why building something in an assemby line fashion is faster? Just thinking logically with the season there may be some items they're waiting until later to install.

They have been sitting like that for months!!! How is that fast?!

[professorscott]

There is a very nice video, which got posted to my wall on Facebook, showing one of the streetcars leaving the Penske Tech Center under its own power, and Matt Cullen gives a little talk, and one or two other people also speak. It's very nice, and I spent a considerable bit of time trying to figure out how to make it available here, to no avail. Perhaps someone younger than your kindly old professor might give it a try. It might be on the M1 Rail Twitter feed, but since the advent of a certain billionaire [[maybe) New York based President-elect, the prof has been steering clear of Twitter.

[ParisianLesion]

They have been sitting like that for months!!! How is that fast?!

Well, in addition to the assembly line explanation, the "shell" of the stations is concrete. In order to ensure structural integrity and minimize cost, these need to be completed in above 40 degree temps. The stations aren't even necessary until spring. So, another way to look at it is, the concrete portion of the stations was completed early in the project schedule to stay ahead of the cold temps. We don't know when the scheduled delivery and install of the other materials was for according to the material schedule. I would say that this project, overall, appears to have been very well managed.

[clubboss]

There is a very nice video, which got posted to my wall on Facebook, showing one of the streetcars leaving the Penske Tech Center under its own power, and Matt Cullen gives a little talk, and one or two other people also speak. It's very nice, and I spent a considerable bit of time trying to figure out how to make it available here, to no avail. Perhaps someone younger than your kindly old professor might give it a try. It might be on the M1 Rail Twitter feed, but since the advent of a certain billionaire [[maybe) New York based President-elect, the prof has been steering clear of Twitter.

I don't know if this is the video you are referring to or not -

https://twitter.com/M1RAIL

[masterblaster]

Regarding the pie-in-the-sky DDOT "project", ALL they produced was a video. Sorry, Royce, but those of us who worked on this project were too busy with actual planning, development and funding to bother to produce a video of something that was never going to be anything more than a video.

The DDOT "DTOGS" downtown to 8 Mile Road Light Rail project was not just a pie-in-the-sky proposal. They went through so many of the steps needed to secure federal funding, but in the end, it was the significant economic downturn of 2008-10 that sank the light rail proposal, as well as the private backers wresting control of the project from DDOT.

Also, at one point, it was proposed that the private money that was accumulated by the private interests for the rail project could be used as the "local match" that the federal government required for federal funding to be approved, see below links:

Here’s a breakdown of the local money for M-1 light rail project

Local cost for Woodward light-rail project: $211 million

So to characterize a FAR SUPERIOR PROJECT [[than the slow, needless, sexy-looking train that doesn't address any of the problems of the inadequate mass transit) as a pie-in-the-sky is really disingenuous. DDOT's project actually addressed the region's poor transit by proposing rapid transit where we have none, while this QLine functionally doesn't do anything that the DDOT 53 bus can't do.

[Bham1982]

DDOT's project actually addressed the region's poor transit by proposing rapid transit where we have none, while this QLine functionally doesn't do anything that the DDOT 53 bus can't do.

I'm agnostic re. the QLine, but am continually amazed that people keep saying stuff like "Now we finally have transit down Woodward" or "Great to see Midtown connected to Downtown".

Um, we already have this. The QLine will actually run at lower frequencies than the bus it's replacing. There's absolutely no functional transit improvement here. There's a PR/image improvement, because Bubba from Shelby Twp. associates buses with poor black folks and trolleys with Disneyland or Rice-a-Roni or something, but there's no impact on mobility.

[ParisianLesion]

"but in the end, it was the significant economic downturn of 2008-10 that sank the light rail proposal, as well as the private backers wresting control of the project from DDOT."

This is actually practically the exact opposite of what happened.

[professorscott]

The QLine will actually run at lower frequencies than the bus it's replacing. There's absolutely no functional transit improvement here.

I understand your point, Bham, and there are other things - the 53 has better service hours as well - but as a frequent 53 rider, there is a significant functional transit improvement, at least for people headed south. In my experience, the 53 frequently fills up to SRO by the time you get past Manchester, so if you actually wanted to ride within the midtown-downtown corridor, you have to stand [[best case) or the bus passes you by entirely and you have to wait for another bus. Also, the schedule, as on all DDOT routes, is to some extent a work of fiction, for a lot of reasons that are complicated and stubborn.

The perceptual improvement is important for other reasons - it is having a direct and significant impact on property values and development in the corridor. I understand your suspicion as to the racial-bias aspect of it, and that may be a piece of it, but only a piece. Those of us who toil in this vineyard are well aware, even though the FTA tells us not to be, that in general there is a much better public perception of rail than of bus, even if that doesn't make any logical sense. [[And, to be perfectly clear, it doesn't.)

So people will ride QLine who just wouldn't ride the 53, and people who would be happy with either will have a better chance at sitting down on the streetcar. It's all good.

Addressing the other correspondent about the DDOT "8 Mile to downtown" project - your kindly old professor was deep in the trenches at the time, and believe me, that was never going to be anything but a video. It had zero chance of actually succeeding. If it had been proposed by just about anyone on Earth except DDOT, which had no credibility then with FTA or the State government or me or anyone else I know who might have been involved, and if it had been planned to run into Oakland County a little bit [[let's say Royal Oak) it might have got some traction. All it accomplished was to set M1 Rail back about eighteen months.

[MSUguy]

The tile is a nice touch imo.






http://detroit.curbed.com/2017/2/10/14578772/qline-stations-m1-rail

[emu steve]

Curious about the stations:

Unless we've done away with winter I would think that as much protection from the elements as possible would be a big, big plus.

Couple of easy thoughts: Protection from rain and snow. Wind.

Some but could more have been done???

P.S. Also, wouldn't shelters be nice for frequently traveled bus routes - starting with stops which have the most riders waiting to be picked up?

[emu steve]

I understand your point, Bham, and there are other things - the 53 has better service hours as well - but as a frequent 53 rider, there is a significant functional transit improvement, at least for people headed south. In my experience, the 53 frequently fills up to SRO by the time you get past Manchester, so if you actually wanted to ride within the midtown-downtown corridor, you have to stand [[best case) or the bus passes you by entirely and you have to wait for another bus. Also, the schedule, as on all DDOT routes, is to some extent a work of fiction, for a lot of reasons that are complicated and stubborn....

So people will ride QLine who just wouldn't ride the 53, and people who would be happy with either will have a better chance at sitting down on the streetcar. It's all good.

One of the best points i've read for QLine:

It increases CAPACITY of public transportation along Woodward by adding new capacity where it is needed most: southbound a few miles out from downtown.

See example of how this plays out in the D.C. suburbs:

As someone who has long taken D.C. area's subway, we all know that the inbound seats are gotten by those who get on near the terminus [[first subway stop). Someone getting on say in Arlington [[inner suburb) will not find a seat during rush hour. Those who got on say 5 - 8 miles earlier got them: First come, first seated... Yes, D.C. know the effect. "Train is full; there is another train behind me..." Kind of bad when one can't even get standing room...

ProfessorScott describes the same phenomenon. The closer to downtown Detroit one gets the less likely the rider will get satisfactory service because of over crowding.

I don't know if bus riders in Detroit use the expression but there is one for D.C. subway riders during rush hours: "Nuts and butts." You might get a seat but you have someone's nuts or butt in your face.

Kind of a 'gross' way to describe what could be called the 'sardine effect.' [I went to the women's march [[Jan 21) in D.C. and yes it was like being sardines...] Even though Saturdays are light travel days [[for obvious reasons and who wants to visit D.C. in the middle of winter, Jan. 21?), our subway system did over 1M trips [[1M one way trips or presumably close to 500K people making a round trip). That was I believe the 2nd highest total of trips in subway history [[I think the history was for Obama's first inauguration).

[bassab]

Testing the trolley this afternoon:

[bassab]

Sorry, don't know how to rotate photos.

[emu steve]

I'm trying with a different browser. I got to believe there is a forum bug because I had no trouble rotating it when I created a copy on my PC.

[professorscott]

I'm trying with a different browser. I got to believe there is a forum bug because I had no trouble rotating it when I created a copy on my PC.

Hey, Steve, no worries, and thanks for the pics. Despite my advancing age, I can still rotate my own head 90 degrees to see the photo in its proper orientation

[Honky Tonk]

__________

[rbdetsport]

Testing the trolley this afternoon:

Once again... Can we PLEASE stop calling this a trolley?

[Honky Tonk]

Once again... Can we PLEASE stop calling this a trolley?

Blight Rail?

[rbdetsport]

Blight Rail?

that was good, I'll admit. STREETCAR! Please!