M-1 rail discussion

[Bham1982]

no bus service in bloomfield? why is that? Don't they have kids/teens? seniors?

You really think that kids/teens and seniors in the richest town in Michigan would have a strong need for bus service?

There aren't even sidewalks anywhere, they have multiacre minimums for residential, so you would have people walking for miles alongside busy roads to get to a Woodward bus stop? For what purpose?

Woodward along that stretch is just lawn. You could conceivably board and go down towards 8 Mile or up towards Pontiac, but I'm doubting there's a huge population of vehicle-free households in Bloomfield itching to go to these two destinations.

[Khorasaurus]

You really think that kids/teens and seniors in the richest town in Michigan would have a strong need for bus service?

There aren't even sidewalks anywhere, they have multiacre minimums for residential, so you would have people walking for miles alongside busy roads to get to a Woodward bus stop? For what purpose?

I actually agree with this. Our limited transit resources need to go places where it makes sense.

Now, there are plenty of places in the region that would benefit from bus service but have opted out of SMART [[glares at Livonia...), and that needs to change - there are people there that need these services. But Bloomfield Hills is fine without - not because the people there are rich, but because it isn't dense enough to drive ridership.

Which actually makes me wonder how much money could be saved by making Birmingham, rather than Pontiac, the terminus of both the proposed Woodward and "northern crosstown" BRT routes. Pontiac could be served by a connecting bus or maybe commuter rail.

[masterblaster]

Imagine housing prices within walking distance to Woodward going up. Imagine density going up too. This would have similar effects in both Detroit and the 'burbs, although I think the suburbs would get more benefit.

Why would the suburbs get more benefit? Boston-Edison, the New Center, the North End, Milwaukee Junction, Highland Park, Palmer Park Apartments, Palmer Park itself, Grixdale would likely receive significant investment, especially if strides are made to decrease crime.

In addition, all of this extension talk is probably of no consequence, because it has already been decided that BRT will run from downtown to Pontiac, and the streetcar will only be 3 miles long.

[Bham1982]

As a [[very general) rule, the nicest housing in Oakland County communities along Woodward is the housing closest to Woodward [[especially just to the west). This rule certainly holds for Ferndale, Berkley, Pleasant Ridge, Huntington Woods, Birmingham and Bloomfield [[both Hills and Twp). For Royal Oak, too, closest to Woodward is best.

In any case, I don't think light rail would have much of an impact in these communities one way or the other.

[Khorasaurus]

As a [[very general) rule, the nicest housing in Oakland County communities along Woodward is the housing closest to Woodward [[especially just to the west). This rule certainly holds for Ferndale, Berkley, Pleasant Ridge, Huntington Woods, Birmingham and Bloomfield [[both Hills and Twp). For Royal Oak, too, closest to Woodward is best.

In any case, I don't think light rail would have much of an impact in these communities one way or the other.

I think it would have a significant impact in the communities that are already dense - Royal Oak, Ferndale, and Birmingham. People already move to those communities to be able to walk to things, and light rail connecting them to each other and Detroit would enhance that existing appeal.

BRT will also have a positive impact, but not to the same degree.

[dtowncitylover]

In any case, I don't think light rail would have much of an impact in these communities one way or the other.

I'm debating to myself whether to ask "How can you say that?" or "What do you mean by this?". Of course there is going to be an impact if transit is ever built out here. Housing prices are going to skyrocket. Why do you think Toronto's neighborhoods that are near subway lines are so fricken' expensive. Bedford Park, Lytton Park, Runnymeade are all pretty dense single family house neighborhoods whose houses start at $300,000+. LRT in Detroit will do the same thing. I could easily see homes going for double or triple than what they are now if you place a rail line on Woodward. Hell, I bet prices would rise if there was just a commuter line.

[Newdetroit]

Don't forget, there is an old rail line that goes from Pontiac through Orchard Lake, West Bloomfield, Wixom. Then there is a line from Wixom down to Novi, Northville, Plymouth, and would bisect the line between Ann Arbor and Detroit. In West Bloomfield, the line has been converted to a walk-way. I wonder if it would be converted to a metro line 50 years from now.

[Bham1982]

I'm debating to myself whether to ask "How can you say that?" or "What do you mean by this?". Of course there is going to be an impact if transit is ever built out here. Housing prices are going to skyrocket.

I don't know why you would think such a thing. Trolleys have the same capacity as buses, and other U.S. cities with trolleys have not experienced this alleged housing price "skyrocket". Where's the "skyrocket" in Cleveland, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, St. Louis? Nowhere.

And not one commuter will have a mobility option that doesn't currently exist. Plenty of empty buses going to nonexistent jobs southbound.

Why do you think Toronto's neighborhoods that are near subway lines are so fricken' expensive. Bedford Park, Lytton Park, Runnymeade are all pretty dense single family house neighborhoods whose houses start at $300,000+.

The richest neighborhoods in Toronto have always been north of downtown, along Yonge. This was true long before the subway, and would still be true if there were no subway. In fact, the richest parts of Toronto [[Bridal Path and the like) are not particularly convenient to rail.

In any case, there's no comparison between a high capacity subway line in a transit-oriented city and a low capacity trolley in an auto-oriented city.

And many of the crappiest neighborhoods in Toronto, such as Scarborough, are well served by rail. How do you explain that?

[Bham1982]

In West Bloomfield, the line has been converted to a walk-way. I wonder if it would be converted to a metro line 50 years from now.

A subway to Walled Lake? Right after the world's tallest building goes up in South Lyon?

[Hermod]

A subway to Walled Lake? Right after the world's tallest building goes up in South Lyon?

At one time, there was an interurban line which ran from Pontiac to Walled lake then down to a junction with the Grand River Line at Farmington Junction where the Grand River line turned west to Northville. A line also ran south from Farmington Junction to Wayne. There was a lot of weekend traffic out the Grand River Line to connect to the line that served the lakes west of Pontiac [[to include a very small and picturesque station at Orchard Lake).

[wolverine]

OK, a multi-car train runs down the center line. It is jam packed full of Detroiters. It reaches a popular stop. Do all of the debarking passengers file down to the crosswalk and wait for the light to change before going to the sidewalk? Do the Detroiters surge in a mass across the traffic lanes in the middle of the block bringing traffic to a standstill?

The stations are very long and there are approach and queuing ramps. They are often times better than curbside because they get all that dedicated space for transit riders vs sharing sidewalk space with businesses and other pedestrians.

If anything, Detroit has very little to worry about. Much bigger cities with heavy ridership manage it. There's an LRT station in the median right in front of the staples center and LA live. I think it's important to acknowledge systems that actually work.

[ghettopalmetto]

I don't know why you would think such a thing. Trolleys have the same capacity as buses, and other U.S. cities with trolleys have not experienced this alleged housing price "skyrocket". Where's the "skyrocket" in Cleveland, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, St. Louis? Nowhere.

I don't think I've ever seen a paragraph with so much factually incorrect information.

[DetroitPlanner]

I don't think I've ever seen a paragraph with so much factually incorrect information.

What is so incorrect? Operating costs are higher for trolleys so they run less frequently in most places. If you go to Cleveland they link two cars together for an LRT trolley, but those cars are much narrower and do not sit anywhere near the number of people as a bus does. While you may see real estate prices stabilize and gain along the route, Cleveland, St Louis, Baltimore, Pittsburgh still have areas where the loses far outweigh the gains that may come from rail.

What would be better for the community as a whole would be to use the money and upgrade the entire system instead of along a corridor. M-1 rail won't do anything for someone without a car who lives in NW Detroit and commutes crosstown.

Your assertion that it is not factual is just hyperbole.

[ghettopalmetto]

What would be better for the community as a whole would be to use the money and upgrade the entire system instead of along a corridor. M-1 rail won't do anything for someone without a car who lives in NW Detroit and commutes crosstown.

Your assertion that it is not factual is just hyperbole.

No one is preventing DDOT or SMART from "upgrading" the entirety of the existing bus systems [[whatever "upgrading" means). The restrictions are purely fiscal. And no one is proposing to throw all of the transit chips toward M1 Rail while ignoring the bus system. This is a straw man that you can go ahead and set on fire.

My assertion that Bham's paragraph is bunk has its basis in facts vis-a-vis off-the-cuff opinion. I do not have the time to present these facts at this time, but will do so later for your edification.

[professorscott]

What would be better for the community as a whole would be to use the money and upgrade the entire system instead of along a corridor. M-1 rail won't do anything for someone without a car who lives in NW Detroit and commutes crosstown.

"The money" comes from, mostly, private investors and philanthropists who can use it how they choose. Astonishing, how freely people want to make decisions about other people's money. You can take your money and whatever money you can raise and use it to upgrade the bus system [[or, better, throw your support behind whatever the RTA eventually proposes). Penske, Gilbert et al. will use their own money how they like.

By the way where is it said authoritatively that it is more expensive to operate a streetcar than a bus? Incidentally, some people have been referring to M1 Rail as a trolley. "Trolley" is an anachronistic slang term, used that way. It's a streetcar. The trolley, on old and vintage streetcars, is the pole that is used to pull down the device that draws power from the overhead catenary wire whenever that needs to be done. Contrary to the old song, the trolley was not a part of a streetcar which was capable of going "clang, clang, clang".

[Honky Tonk]

"The money" comes from, mostly, private investors and philanthropists who can use it how they choose. Astonishing, how freely people want to make decisions about other people's money. You can take your money and whatever money you can raise and use it to upgrade the bus system [[or, better, throw your support behind whatever the RTA eventually proposes). Penske, Gilbert et al. will use their own money how they like.

By the way where is it said authoritatively that it is more expensive to operate a streetcar than a bus? Incidentally, some people have been referring to M1 Rail as a trolley. "Trolley" is an anachronistic slang term, used that way. It's a streetcar. The trolley, on old and vintage streetcars, is the pole that is used to pull down the device that draws power from the overhead catenary wire whenever that needs to be done. Contrary to the old song, the trolley was not a part of a streetcar which was capable of going "clang, clang, clang".

I have to point out, however, that the bell did go "Ding, Ding, Ding".....

[bailey]

"The money" comes from, mostly, private investors and philanthropists who can use it how they choose. Astonishing, how freely people want to make decisions about other people's money. You can take your money and whatever money you can raise and use it to upgrade the bus system [[or, better, throw your support behind whatever the RTA eventually proposes). Penske, Gilbert et al. will use their own money how they like.

While how they spend their money is surely their prerogative in their private or philanthropic endeavors... they have chosen to enter the public domain here with a public project that is going on the public roads and will be the public's problem once it's built.

If it was Penske's demand the trolleys be powered by rocket turbine engines should we all just STFU about it because he's using his own money?

[professorscott]

While that is surely their prerogative in their private or philanthropic endeavors... they have chosen to enter the public domain here with a public project that is going on the public roads and will be the public's problem once it's built.

Which is why they had to, and did, reach operating agreements with MDOT, which owns the right-of-way for most of that part of Woodward, and the City, which owns the right-of-way for the southernmost part.

If it was Penske's demand the trolleys be powered by rocket turbine engines should we all just STFU about it?

There was ample opportunity for public input, before most of the decisions were finalized [[some have still not been), so if something ludicrous like this had come up, there was the opportunity to contest it. Further, since there is a bit of Federal money involved, that kind of thing would have come off the table as soon as USDOT or FTA objected to it.

I'm not saying anyone has to shut their mouths, as you so indelicately put it; I'm simply saying it's a waste of time to voice your opinion as to how somebody else ought to have spent their own money. If you buy a pack of cigarettes or a lottery ticket, I think that's stupid, but I'm not going to challenge you about it. It's your money, spend it however you like [[even though, in the cigarette case, you are contributing to air pollution).

By the way the operation of M1 Rail cannot become the public's problem until, and unless, the RTA votes [[unanimously, mind you) to take it over. Mr. Penske and his colleagues believe that will happen, ten years after the system begins operating, which makes me suspect they have figured out a way to make such a handoff palatable enough to get the unanimous vote they'll then need. I have no idea what such a plan is, and I'm not even sure it exists, but we aren't dealing with simpletons here.

[DetroitPlanner]

"The money" comes from, mostly, private investors and philanthropists who can use it how they choose. Astonishing, how freely people want to make decisions about other people's money. You can take your money and whatever money you can raise and use it to upgrade the bus system [[or, better, throw your support behind whatever the RTA eventually proposes). Penske, Gilbert et al. will use their own money how they like.

My comments were about these projects in general. If you notice Bham was comparing [[and I) were comparing these to similar projects in other cities that do not have the private support that Detroit does.

As far as cost here is a table explaining costs by mode. Bus is the more cost effective than 'trolley', streetcar, lrt.. http://www.mbta.com/uploadedfiles/Ab...%201-10-12.pdf

King County LRT: $4.49
King County Bus: $3.09

NJT LRT: $5.06
NJT Bus: $2.76

[DetroitPlanner]

remove please

[ghettopalmetto]

My comments were about these projects in general. If you notice Bham was comparing [[and I) were comparing these to similar projects in other cities that do not have the private support that Detroit does.

As far as cost here is a table explaining costs by mode. Bus is the more cost effective than 'trolley', streetcar, lrt.. http://www.mbta.com/uploadedfiles/Ab...%201-10-12.pdf

King County LRT: $4.49
King County Bus: $3.09

NJT LRT: $5.06
NJT Bus: $2.76

And:

MBTA Light Rail: $0.93
MBTA Bus: $2.62

SEPTA Light Rail: $1.14
SEPTA Bus: $2.05

You haven't "proven" a God damned thing with your cherry-picking.

[Hypestyles]

You really think that kids/teens and seniors in the richest town in Michigan would have a strong need for bus service?

There aren't even sidewalks anywhere, they have multiacre minimums for residential, so you would have people walking for miles alongside busy roads to get to a Woodward bus stop? For what purpose?

Woodward along that stretch is just lawn. You could conceivably board and go down towards 8 Mile or up towards Pontiac, but I'm doubting there's a huge population of vehicle-free households in Bloomfield itching to go to these two destinations.

i'm glad I don't live there- it's an idiotic approach to community planning..

[mtburb]

also found what looks like where they think future bus rapid transit routes may go
Attachment 22722

You know what? I'm going to sleep and waking up when a BRT line on Fort Street that goes as far as at least Eureka Road is announced.

[DetroitPlanner]

And:

MBTA Light Rail: $0.93
MBTA Bus: $2.62

SEPTA Light Rail: $1.14
SEPTA Bus: $2.05

You haven't "proven" a God damned thing with your cherry-picking.

Talk about a cherry picker:

Average Light rail: $2.75
Average Bus: $2.32

Multiply the difference by annual ridership in the tens of millions and you will see some big savings.

[DetroitPlanner]

i'm glad I don't live there- it's an idiotic approach to community planning..

It is not idiotic if your City's goal is to keep people out. Seems pretty effective. Not where I'd want to live, but to each his own.

Want to see horrible? There are far worse in the region. Tiny little burgs most folks have never heard of.