M-1 rail discussion

[dtowncitylover]

http://detroit.curbed.com/2016/12/13...-test-woodward

[RO_Resident]

Interesting to see the workers measure the clearances at the Campus Martius station.

The car was towed for much of the length of the test.


It drove on its own power passing through the northbound portion of CM.

[royce]

"Delivery Drivers: Please exercise use of side streets." This will probably result in the biggest complaints concerning putting the Q-Line right along the curb of the southbound lanes. A delivery driver is supposed to find a side street, park, unload deliveries, and then cart deliveries 50 to 100 yards away from said destination. There is more of a potential for delivery drivers to be robbed or their trucks broken into while they are in the businesses along Woodward unloading their deliveries. They'd be better off parking in the left turn lane like they do on Kercheval in Grosse Pointe. At least this way they can keep and I on their vehicles and they're not targets for criminals lurking around the corner on those side streets.

In addition, I still don't know how this curbside configuration on the southbound lanes was accepted by city council. There will be other occurrences where this configuration will be a problem. For example, cars turning west onto streets like Warren or Canfield will slow the Q-Line down when they have to wait for pedestrians to cross the street. Also, cars with mechanical problems will have to use the Q-Line's lane to get out of the way of on coming traffic.

Finally, how can the fine for being in the way of the Q-Line be $650? Shouldn't the fine for parking on the rails be the same as parking in any other no-parking area along the street? I can see a lawyer for someone required to pay this fine arguing in court, saying that this fine is unconstitutional because it is "excessive." Stay turned.

[canuck]

"Delivery Drivers: Please exercise use of side streets." This will probably result in the biggest complaints concerning putting the Q-Line right along the curb of the southbound lanes. A delivery driver is supposed to find a side street, park, unload deliveries, and then cart deliveries 50 to 100 yards away from said destination. There is more of a potential for delivery drivers to be robbed or their trucks broken into while they are in the businesses along Woodward unloading their deliveries. They'd be better off parking in the left turn lane like they do on Kercheval in Grosse Pointe. At least this way they can keep and I on their vehicles and they're not targets for criminals lurking around the corner on those side streets.

In addition, I still don't know how this curbside configuration on the southbound lanes was accepted by city council. There will be other occurrences where this configuration will be a problem. For example, cars turning west onto streets like Warren or Canfield will slow the Q-Line down when they have to wait for pedestrians to cross the street. Also, cars with mechanical problems will have to use the Q-Line's lane to get out of the way of on coming traffic.

Finally, how can the fine for being in the way of the Q-Line be $650? Shouldn't the fine for parking on the rails be the same as parking in any other no-parking area along the street? I can see a lawyer for someone required to pay this fine arguing in court, saying that this fine is unconstitutional because it is "excessive." Stay turned.

Well, you can argue that in spite of your parking in front of a bus stop, the driver could swerve and pass whereas a streetcar is rail bound. Think about the mess.

Apart from that, the car looks great!

[Gorath]

That $650 fine probably includes the cost of towing the vehicle.

[dtowncitylover]

"Delivery Drivers: Please exercise use of side streets." This will probably result in the biggest complaints concerning putting the Q-Line right along the curb of the southbound lanes. A delivery driver is supposed to find a side street, park, unload deliveries, and then cart deliveries 50 to 100 yards away from said destination. There is more of a potential for delivery drivers to be robbed or their trucks broken into while they are in the businesses along Woodward unloading their deliveries. They'd be better off parking in the left turn lane like they do on Kercheval in Grosse Pointe. At least this way they can keep and I on their vehicles and they're not targets for criminals lurking around the corner on those side streets.

In addition, I still don't know how this curbside configuration on the southbound lanes was accepted by city council. There will be other occurrences where this configuration will be a problem. For example, cars turning west onto streets like Warren or Canfield will slow the Q-Line down when they have to wait for pedestrians to cross the street. Also, cars with mechanical problems will have to use the Q-Line's lane to get out of the way of on coming traffic.

Finally, how can the fine for being in the way of the Q-Line be $650? Shouldn't the fine for parking on the rails be the same as parking in any other no-parking area along the street? I can see a lawyer for someone required to pay this fine arguing in court, saying that this fine is unconstitutional because it is "excessive." Stay turned.

I don't disagree with you on the first paragraph, but large deliveries don't happen through the front door. More than likely, it's through a loading dock that's not on Woodward. I would think this is mostly for the Fedex/UPS drivers, dropping off a quick package. And a thief would be pretty brazen to steal a UPS truck at 3 pm on a Wednesday in downtown Detroit.

I also don't know how city council let curbside happen, but they're not civil/transit engineers either so they didn't know any better either.

I would think people are smart enough that if their car dies and they're on the RAIL tracks, they will push it to the nearest side street. It's not that hard. And if the streetcar comes it will honk loudly and for awhile until the embarrassed driver gets out of the way.

And good for the "high" fine price, it will make people think twice about double parking or standing.

[Honky Tonk]

Finally, how can the fine for being in the way of the Q-Line be $650?

Because Emperor Ilitch deems it so...

[middetres]

For over two years we've endured the construction with having only one or two lanes of Woodward open in each direction. Woodward does not need 3 vehicle travel lanes in each direction north of GCP. The track lane should be for the train only and painted red. No vehicles should enter those lanes unless turning right or entering a parking space. I would even say that south of GCP, vehicle traffic can survive with one vehicle lane and one train lane. Drivers learned to stay away from Woodward during construction and survived. If they know Woodward will be congested and slow moving for cars, they can continue to avoid it. The beauty of Detroit is that there are many ways to get to a destination. Woodward should be a mass transit/local access hub, not a quick driving route from the suburbs. That's what the freeways are for...and 2nd and 3rd and Trumbull and John R and Brush, etc.

[Honky Tonk]

For over two years we've endured the construction with having only one or two lanes of Woodward open in each direction. Woodward does not need 3 vehicle travel lanes in each direction north of GCP. The track lane should be for the train only and painted red. No vehicles should enter those lanes unless turning right or entering a parking space. I would even say that south of GCP, vehicle traffic can survive with one vehicle lane and one train lane. Drivers learned to stay away from Woodward during construction and survived. If they know Woodward will be congested and slow moving for cars, they can continue to avoid it. The beauty of Detroit is that there are many ways to get to a destination. Woodward should be a mass transit/local access hub, not a quick driving route from the suburbs. That's what the freeways are for...and 2nd and 3rd and Trumbull and John R and Brush, etc.

You're right, screw the businesses along Woodward.

[dtowncitylover]

You're right, screw the businesses along Woodward.

What does lane reduction have to do with "screwing the businesses" along Woodward?

Coming the spring, for the first time in my life, I can take the Reflex bus into the city, get off at Warren visit the DIA, the Historical Museum, then hop on the tram within minutes to go downtown, window or real shop, have lunch, and not have to worry about my car or parking. And take the bus back home.

Transit is nothing but good for businesses. Yes the construction sucked, but the results will be worth it.

[Honky Tonk]

What does lane reduction have to do with "screwing the businesses" along Woodward?

Coming the spring, for the first time in my life, I can take the Reflex bus into the city, get off at Warren visit the DIA, the Historical Museum, then hop on the tram within minutes to go downtown, window or real shop, have lunch, and not have to worry about my car or parking. And take the bus back home.

Transit is nothing but good for businesses. Yes the construction sucked, but the results will be worth it.

Bully for you. Unfortunately, most of the 'burbs customers come in by automobile. They want to park and go do their business. They don't have time to reenact a scene from That Girl. One major reason I don't come into midtown is the parking situation. It's easier for me to drive into the 'burbs, park and shop, then deal with the $10 parking or ticket nonsense in midtown.

[professorscott]

What does lane reduction have to do with "screwing the businesses" along Woodward?

Dtown, I fear many of our colleagues on this blog have spent so much time in a car-focused world that they have a difficult time imagining any other kind; in essence, they seem to believe a retail business is doomed to failure if you can't park right in front of the doorway when you want to patronize that business.

The good thing is, you don't even need imagination to see how this works, you just need to travel, and not far. Go to Toronto - that's probably the closest really excellent example - and you will see how businesses do quite well in a city that is pretty car-hostile, at least in the central part of the city. Toronto gives people plenty of ways to move around: yes, you can drive, or taxi, or bicycle, or bus, or streetcar, or subway, or walk, or any combination of these. Like New York, it is actually kind of a pain in the ass to have a car in Toronto proper.

By the way, that the QLine streetcar was towed along most of its route was due to a slight mishap - it was supposed to be towed the entire way; this was not intended to be a test of its own operating capabilities [[this first test was largely about ADA compliance) but the streetcar got detached from the towing vehicle [[oops) but was able to proceed on its own battery power until it could be reconnected. [[Yay!) Thank goodness somebody remembered to plug in the charger beforehand

[middetres]

You're right, screw the businesses along Woodward.

Just the opposite, slowing vehicle traffic down enhances business.

Ferndale didn't blossom until they gave 9 Mile a road diet.

Do you think downtown Birmingham would be nearly as successful as it is if they'd widened Old Woodward to 9 lanes in lieu of creating a Hunter Blvd/Woodward bypass just east of downtown?

Woodward and the other radials were widened pre-freeway era. Given the traffic that they lost when freeways opened, the radials should have been given road diets 40+ years ago.

[Honky Tonk]

Ferndale, Birmingham, Royal Oak blossomed because there is plenty of free or cheap parking both in front of and behind the businesses there. They're going to continue to blossom because no one plopped down 4 coliseums in one spot, that's going to create one huge cluster@%&!. Narrowing down, and creating havoc with the Blight Rail on Woodward doesn't seem like a very appealing idea as a place to go. But, hey, a lot of people seem to enjoy mayhem. I had enough with just one coliseum.

[dtowncitylover]

Bully for you. Unfortunately, most of the 'burbs customers come in by automobile. They want to park and go do their business. They don't have time to reenact a scene from That Girl. One major reason I don't come into midtown is the parking situation. It's easier for me to drive into the 'burbs, park and shop, then deal with the $10 parking or ticket nonsense in midtown.

Well thank God, hopefully, our city isn't being redesigned for the suburban shopper. If the suburbanite wants to come into the city, either deal with road diets and already existing parking and/or take the tram or come in by transit from the start.

You think the millions of shoppers in urban cities across the world are purposefully recreating scenes from That Girl or the MTM opening? No, it's because they probably took transit in and are getting around town via subway, tram, bus, Uber, walking, biking...

[dtowncitylover]

Ferndale, Birmingham, Royal Oak blossomed because there is plenty of free or cheap parking both in front of and behind the businesses there. They're going to continue to blossom because no one plopped down 4 coliseums in one spot, that's going to create one huge cluster@%&!. Narrowing down, and creating havoc with the Blight Rail on Woodward doesn't seem like a very appealing idea as a place to go. But, hey, a lot of people seem to enjoy mayhem. I had enough with just one coliseum.

Lol Every time you call it "Blight Rail" the less likely we are going to take you seriously. This going down Woodward not down Fenkell.

And yes they kept their street-front businesses and didn't tear them down to create more parking lots. Downtown Detroit still has copious amounts of on street, lot, and structure parking. I'm not sure what the complaint is? People, both suburbanite and city dweller, must now be aware of the tram. Everything is going to be ok.

[Honky Tonk]

Well thank God, hopefully, our city isn't being redesigned for the suburban shopper. If the suburbanite wants to come into the city, either deal with road diets and already existing parking and/or take the tram or come in by transit from the start.

You think the millions of shoppers in urban cities across the world are purposefully recreating scenes from That Girl or the MTM opening? No, it's because they probably took transit in and are getting around town via subway, tram, bus, Uber, walking, biking...

Yes, millions of visitors look forward to coming in to an overcrowded area, then lugging groceries and packages from store to store to the DIA to the bus to the Blight Rail to their cars, and then back home. A real selling point.

[dtowncitylover]

Yes, millions of visitors look forward to coming in to an overcrowded area, then lugging groceries and packages from store to store to the DIA to the bus to the Blight Rail to their cars, and then back home. A real selling point.

Literally a city.

LMAO at "overcrowded area". I've never heard Detroit being described as overcrowded before. Didn't realize we're suddenly Calcutta because they put up a hockey arena.

[gumby]

Yes, millions of visitors look forward to coming in to an overcrowded area, then lugging groceries and packages from store to store to the DIA to the bus to the Blight Rail to their cars, and then back home. A real selling point.

Why are you even here if you hate urban areas so much? You do know this is a pro-Detroit website? You just literally described every other major city in the world.

[Honky Tonk]

Why are you even here if you hate urban areas so much? You do know this is a pro-Detroit website? You just literally described every other major city in the world.

I live here gumby, I just don't drink Kool Aid.

[dtowncitylover]

I live here gumby, I just don't drink Kool Aid.

And I think this is the mindset that someone told me about, and I pretty much knew already, that needs to change. Detroit is changing. Our neighborhoods are in steep decline, but our central Woodward corridor is beginning to feel like an actual urban center. We have gone nearly two generations without mass transit on any major corridor, we're so used to buses, we've gone over a generation without downtown having actual pedestrians roaming the streets. Barely anyone alive today remembers a Detroit without cars everywhere, we're just so used to everyone driving that we think it's completely normal for half of downtown Detroit's land to be used by parking lots and structures. Well it's not for an urban center. There needs to be mixed used properties.

HonkyTonk, I frankly don't know what your problem is, but transit helps businesses, residents, tourists, students, etc. Will it be a silver bullet? Hell no and it's going to bring 2 million people back. But it's not going push more people out of the city or hinder economic development, we've already seen that with much more than just the arena [[sorry let's face it, the two have very little to do with each other. We were going to get a new arena regardless).

[Bham1982]

Yes, millions of visitors look forward to coming in to an overcrowded area, then lugging groceries and packages from store to store to the DIA to the bus to the Blight Rail to their cars, and then back home. A real selling point.

Metro Detroit can be accused of many things, but "overcrowded" would not be an obvious one. Detroit is probably among the least congested cities on the planet.

[Calltoaction]

Ferndale, Birmingham, Royal Oak blossomed because there is plenty of free or cheap parking both in front of and behind the businesses there.

HAHAHAHAHHA You are truly delusional if you honestly think that is the reason the suburbs "Blossomed".

[Honky Tonk]

LMAO

I disagree, I think there's plenty of ass left in you, dcl. Apparently you've never been around Comerica Park on game day. Used to live down the block, it sucked. The crowds, the traffic, cops arguing with you that you can't turn to get in your own driveway, but you're the expert. Like I said, some people enjoy the mayhem. I'm sure lots of people will want to come down to shop.

[dtowncitylover]

I disagree, I think there's plenty of ass left in you, dcl. Apparently you've never been around Comerica Park on game day. Used to live down the block, it sucked. The crowds, the traffic, cops arguing with you that you can't turn to get in your own driveway, but you're the expert. Like I said, some people enjoy the mayhem. I'm sure lots of people will want to come down to shop.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA OK Honky Tonk, 3-4 hrs of busyness around a stadium does not qualify as "overcrowding". Cities are meant for the crowds. I'm not sure what else you were expecting when you lived there. Peace and quiet and open air?