M-1 rail discussion

**professorscott** · September-12-16, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

Do you think, one day it would be possible to make the streetcar dedicated tracks by building concrete barriers along the tracks, then placing protected bike lanes on each side, with auto traffic in the middle with 2 lanes and turn lane/median. What do you all think?

I like the idea; all you have to do, next time Woodward is up for a major rebuild, convince MDOT. When we were working on this, MDOT was very supportive so long as we didn't reduce car travel lanes, which is why the configuration is shared-lane.

**casscorridor** · September-13-16, 12:16 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

I like the idea; all you have to do, next time Woodward is up for a major rebuild, convince MDOT. When we were working on this, MDOT was very supportive so long as we didn't reduce car travel lanes, which is why the configuration is shared-lane.

Ahh, interesting. It's a shame, because as we've seen during the construction, Woodward doesn't really need to be that wide. It's still quite fast to drive the whole length with one lane in each direction and there is rarely back-ups. But I guess we shouldn't expect much different from anything involving Michigan.

**Gistok** · September-13-16, 04:14 AM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

Ahh, interesting. It's a shame, because as we've seen during the construction, Woodward doesn't really need to be that wide. It's still quite fast to drive the whole length with one lane in each direction and there is rarely back-ups. But I guess we shouldn't expect much different from anything involving Michigan.

When we went downtown back in February to the Fox [[with something going on at Ford Field).... Woodward was down to one lane in each direction [[with a turning lane) due to the construction.... and it took us 1 hour to go down Woodward from Forest to Grand Circus Park. 1 hour!!

**professorscott** · September-13-16, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

When we went downtown back in February to the Fox [[with something going on at Ford Field).... Woodward was down to one lane in each direction [[with a turning lane) due to the construction.... and it took us 1 hour to go down Woodward from Forest to Grand Circus Park. 1 hour!!

Ah, but that was a sudden and short-term phenomenon. It takes time to change travel habits. If Woodward were permanently narrowed to accommodate less automobile traffic, sure, the first couple weeks would be a royal pain in the ass. But then people would start to discover the parallel one-way roads, which can carry much more traffic than they do, or even [[gasp) take the bus. Or work off-shift hours, or find a way to telecommute [[not everyone could do that; I can't imagine a welder or police officer telecommuting, but some people certainly could).

The road network we built causes the travel behaviors we have, and not the other way 'round. Change the one, and you'll change the other. Just not on day one.

**rbdetsport** · September-13-16, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

Ah, but that was a sudden and short-term phenomenon. It takes time to change travel habits. If Woodward were permanently narrowed to accommodate less automobile traffic, sure, the first couple weeks would be a royal pain in the ass. But then people would start to discover the parallel one-way roads, which can carry much more traffic than they do, or even [[gasp) take the bus. Or work off-shift hours, or find a way to telecommute [[not everyone could do that; I can't imagine a welder or police officer telecommuting, but some people certainly could).

The road network we built causes the travel behaviors we have, and not the other way 'round. Change the one, and you'll change the other. Just not on day one.

This is something you see in Midtown Atlanta. Peachtree Street is the "Main Road" through Midtown, however, there are parallel one-ways that carry most of the traffic. Peachtree is a simple 4-lane road [[unfortunately with no left-turn lanes). It is a great, walkable road through Midtown. The one-ways unfortunately are not very walkable, but as development builds up around the roads, they become more walkable.

**MSUguy** · September-13-16, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by professorscott

I like the idea; all you have to do, next time Woodward is up for a major rebuild, convince MDOT. When we were working on this, MDOT was very supportive so long as we didn't reduce car travel lanes, which is why the configuration is shared-lane.

So if the transit millage passes is MDOT going to stop the BRT system being from being built as proposed?

**SpartanDawg** · September-13-16, 07:26 PM

First car arrived in Detroit today. Spotted

**professorscott** · September-13-16, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by MSUguy

So if the transit millage passes is MDOT going to stop the BRT system being from being built as proposed?

I don't have the details in front of me, but I do not believe the proposals include BRT running in separate lanes on Woodward within the M1 section of the Woodward corridor. Further north the road is wider and it's easier to convince MDOT to lose a lane to buses. As it is, I have never seen a BRT line that has an exclusive lane along its entire route. Not to say there isn't one, but I've never seen one.

**professorscott** · September-13-16, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by SpartanDawg

First car arrived in Detroit today. Spotted

It is absolutely wonderful that the streetcar is being driven past the Loranger Architecture Building at U of D Mercy, which is where some of the earliest meetings that led to the formation of M1 Rail took place. Thanks for posting this. This made my day.

**royce** · September-14-16, 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

Do you think, one day it would be possible to make the streetcar dedicated tracks by building concrete barriers along the tracks, then placing protected bike lanes on each side, with auto traffic in the middle with 2 lanes and turn lane/median. What do you all think?

This sounds very familiar. Where did I hear about this? Oh, right, my post on August 22, 2016.

**royce** · September-14-16, 01:22 AM

Not sure if I care for the color of the rail car. White and red seems so un-Detroit. Maybe beige and red would evoke memories of the old streetcars.

**emu steve** · September-14-16, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by royce

Not sure if I care for the color of the rail car. White and red seems so un-Detroit. Maybe beige and red would evoke memories of the old streetcars.

Red and white seems so Red Wingish. Lol.

I assume the colors selected should be clearly visible [[to make the rail car more visible) but not garish.

One wants the rail car to stand out in the roadway against a back drop of gray cars, etc. [[whatever the most popular colored cars being driven down Woodward are).

[Blue and white would seem so Tigerish.

]

**dtowncitylover** · September-14-16, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by royce

White and red seems so un-Detroit.

You should tell the Red Wings that!

Four different sport teams, four different color combos. Then we have the green Spirit of Detroit. What color is so Detroit?

**emu steve** · September-14-16, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

You should tell the Red Wings that!

Four different sport teams, four different color combos. Then we have the green Spirit of Detroit. What color is so Detroit?

I can think of another color combination which works very well:

Gray cars with red and blue trim.

Attachment 31604

As I indicated in another post, as QLine cars are not subway cars running on a dedicated track, I'd think that cars which are more visually distinct from automobile cars would be a plus.

Persons walking [[or running

) toward a QLine stop should be able to see the car from a distance.

**bust** · September-14-16, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by emu steve

...I'd think that cars which are more visually distinct from automobile cars would be a plus.

Persons walking [[or running

) toward a QLine stop should be able to see the car from a distance.

Maybe they can incorporate the "winged" University of Michigan helmet design up top.

**masterblaster** · September-14-16, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

Do you think, one day it would be possible to make the streetcar dedicated tracks by building concrete barriers along the tracks, then placing protected bike lanes on each side, with auto traffic in the middle with 2 lanes and turn lane/median. What do you all think?

I thought Cass Avenue was going to get the separate/dedicated bike lanes:

"Despite the freezing temperatures, it no doubt got local cyclists' wheels spinning last month to hear that Michigan's Department of Transportation was setting aside $1 million to transform the Detroit's Cass Avenue into a bicycle-friendly corridor as an alternative to Woodward given M-1 Rail will turn parts of Woodward into side-running streetcar track.Though design is still underway, Detroit's Department of Public Works, which is taking charge of the project, has confirmed a few new details about these plans to turn Cass into a street specially designated for bicycle traffic."

http://wearemodeshift.org/new-detail...ave-bike-lanes

**ndavies** · September-14-16, 10:25 AM

Does it really matter what color the outside is? Within a few weeks, I'm sure it will be covered with a full coverage color advertising wrap. Just like the people mover and some of the buses.

**dtowncitylover** · September-14-16, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by ndavies

Does it really matter what color the outside is? Within a few weeks, I'm sure it will be covered with a full coverage color advertising wrap. Just like the people mover and some of the buses.

Considering this doesn't open to the public until next year, I highly doubt that.

**ndavies** · September-14-16, 11:09 AM

The only thing wrong with my prediction is the timeframe. Within a year they will be covered in billboards and color wraps.

**masterblaster** · September-14-16, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

I don't have the details in front of me, but I do not believe the proposals include BRT running in separate lanes on Woodward within the M1 section of the Woodward corridor. Further north the road is wider and it's easier to convince MDOT to lose a lane to buses. As it is, I have never seen a BRT line that has an exclusive lane along its entire route. Not to say there isn't one, but I've never seen one.

The BRT will run on Cass and John R south of Grand Boulevard. This is what I have read in the past.

North of West Grand Boulevard, Woodward actually narrows to 7 lanes wide, and stays that way until it widens at Manchester Road, which is in the midst of "downtown" Highland Park. It narrows again from the train tracks north of "downtown" to McNichols Avenue, where it gets like 200 feet wide.

**royce** · September-14-16, 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by SpartanDawg

also all lanes on woodward now are open between warren-ish and just north of the arena.. i was shocked this morning driving back from work to see them all open, felt amazing. woodward is really coming together and it looks great! excited to see what plants or trees they put in all the islands in the middle of the road [[right now they just are dug up and have tarp in them, awaiting greenery)

Drove down southbound Woodward and noticed that there are only three lanes now. The M-1 Rail takes up a lane and there are two traffic lanes. Looks like the sidewalks are a little wider than before and the rail lane is a little wider. Still four lanes on the northbound side.

BTW, will cars and/or bikes be allowed to ride in the rail line anytime? I know if a car is making a right that it has to get into that lane near the intersection, but what about passing other cars at points not near intersections?

**SpartanDawg** · September-15-16, 05:12 AM

Originally Posted by royce

Drove down southbound Woodward and noticed that there are only three lanes now. The M-1 Rail takes up a lane and there are two traffic lanes. Looks like the sidewalks are a little wider than before and the rail lane is a little wider. Still four lanes on the northbound side.

BTW, will cars and/or bikes be allowed to ride in the rail line anytime? I know if a car is making a right that it has to get into that lane near the intersection, but what about passing other cars at points not near intersections?

it's only 3 traffic lanes northbound as well. the very right lane is parking only. and they deter people from driving in the parking lane b/c there are multiple times where the sidewalk will jut out into the parking lane throughout woodward. so 3 traffic lanes on each side and a middle lane. also many islands scattered throughout with pedestrian walkways cutting through. looks really nice and makes woodward more walkable in midtown.

right now cars are allowed to drive in the rail lane, hoping that in the future they put some barrier up not allowing it, as it will slow down m1 rail when there is heavy traffic

**professorscott** · September-15-16, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by SpartanDawg

right now cars are allowed to drive in the rail lane, hoping that in the future they put some barrier up not allowing it, as it will slow down m1 rail when there is heavy traffic

Not going to happen. QLine is, and was always designed to be, a streetcar system operating in mixed traffic. It's not rapid transit and it's not supposed to be. If you want to see what it's based on, go to Portland, Oregon and ride the Portland Streetcar. It's slow, but it's very popular, because it connects a lot of things that people are trying to get to. Even if M1 Rail wanted to separate it, MDOT would not allow it. This was briefly discussed, and quickly shut down, eight years ago.

Answering another recent item in this thread, it is legal to ride a bicycle almost anywhere it is legal to drive an automobile, which includes the streetcar lanes of Woodward. However, if you have ever bicycled onto a streetcar track from a near-parallel angle, you will understand me when I say it is a very bad idea.

**emu steve** · September-21-16, 10:11 PM

The car is sweet!!!

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...rail/90786964/

**casscorridor** · September-21-16, 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by emu steve

The car is sweet!!!

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...rail/90786964/

A few things are still unclear:

Where are the fare boxes? How will they operate?
Will there be contactless/smart card/apple pay payments?
How will transfers from DDOT, SMART and DPM be handled?
What about fare validation? Random checks? What will be the penalties?

My hope is that there will be a regional smart card that will work as contactless payment for all transport for the region.