M-1 rail discussion

[bust]

When has BRT ever been used as a regional/commuter system?

Ever since the first one, in Curitiba Brazil. It includes both a local system that is something of an advanced bus version of a metro and an express system that takes passengers to and from the distant suburbs, quickly. Of course BRT systems have not been built equal since then. And from the information I've seen so far the system they've proposed on Gratiot and elsewhere in metro Detroit is nothing more than an express bus system with BRT in its name. But it is intended to be a regional/commuter system.

The Guardian wrote a great article about the system in Curitiba:

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2...s-50-buildings

More info, including system maps, here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rede_I..._de_Transporte

P.S.: Confusingly, the "Expresso" system are not in fact the express / regional buses. The "Direta" system shows those. Similarly, on doors all over Brazil you'll see an instruction: "puxe", pronounced "push". It means "pull".

[detroitbob]

If you look at the track location in front of the Fox and Fillmore and the other buildings, like church facilities, drop off still is maintained at the curbside.

[dtowncitylover]

Thoughts?

http://motorcitymuckraker.com/2016/0...axpayers-hook/

I've been both critical and supportive of M1 since its inception. It was nice to see business leaders stepping forward to invest in transit, however the complete lack of actually knowing what the hell they're doing because private businesses that don't with transit should not be running a transit entity. The decision to have it curb-running is an example.

But I've been supportive because streetcars are a real form of public transit that can be used and I think that it will help Detroit to become a more dense, walkable city by the economic boom we are currently seeing.

I think this article however is so gloomy. Sorry, but if there are cost overruns, let them come to the taxpayer. This is public transportation, it should be paid for by the taxpayers. I get some feel this is some sort of pet project by Danny G and his ilk but this is still transit and therefore I will be happy the day in 2024 when the RTA takes it over.

And why doesn't that member of the Board of Directors resign and speak publicly? Probably because Danny G would have his head...

[Honky Tonk]

Thoughts?

http://motorcitymuckraker.com/2016/0...axpayers-hook/

I've been both critical and supportive of M1 since its inception. It was nice to see business leaders stepping forward to invest in transit, however the complete lack of actually knowing what the hell they're doing because private businesses that don't with transit should not be running a transit entity. The decision to have it curb-running is an example.

But I've been supportive because streetcars are a real form of public transit that can be used and I think that it will help Detroit to become a more dense, walkable city by the economic boom we are currently seeing.

I think this article however is so gloomy. Sorry, but if there are cost overruns, let them come to the taxpayer. This is public transportation, it should be paid for by the taxpayers. I get some feel this is some sort of pet project by Danny G and his ilk but this is still transit and therefore I will be happy the day in 2024 when the RTA takes it over.

And why doesn't that member of the Board of Directors resign and speak publicly? Probably because Danny G would have his head...

Since this 3.3 mile train designed to aid parking and make Ilitch's coliseum more profitable, and does nothing for the rest of Detroit residents seeking viable public transportation, I think that Ilitch, Gilbert, Penske, and the rest of the developers along the 3.3 mile stretch, as well as the residents of Downtown and Midtown, who the train actually actually serves, should be hit with a special assessment to help offset the construction overruns. I personally am tired of shelling out on some pie-in-the-sky promise, while everyone else profits. Not sorry in the least bit.

[dtowncitylover]

Since this 3.3 mile train designed to aid parking and make Ilitch's coliseum more profitable, and does nothing for the rest of Detroit residents seeking viable public transportation, I think that Ilitch, Gilbert, Penske, and the rest of the developers along the 3.3 mile stretch, as well as the residents of Downtown and Midtown, who the train actually actually serves, should be hit with a special assessment to help offset the construction overruns. I personally am tired of shelling out on some pie-in-the-sky promise, while everyone else profits. Not sorry in the least bit.

And I don't blame you in the least. Of course, the writer does say that taxpayers will be on the hook without much proof. If there are cost overruns, how do we know Dan G won't accept responsibility and get more money to throw at it? Could the city/state make him do that since this was his project?

[professorscott]

Of course, the writer does say that taxpayers will be on the hook without much proof. If there are cost overruns, how do we know Dan G won't accept responsibility and get more money to throw at it? Could the city/state make him do that since this was his project?

I can answer this definitively. The only way the taxpayers are responsible for anything is [[1) if the RTA proposal passes, and [[2) the RTA, at some point in the future, decides to operate the streetcar.

For now, in fact for years, M1 Rail is the only entity paying for anything, and of course it can go to its funders and ask for more money if it wants to. If there are cost overruns, there are many things M1 Rail can do, from just stopping to deciding to run trains less frequently or reducing service hours, asking for more money from the people who have already paid into it, and probably a few other things I haven't thought of.

For the author to be claiming that taxpayers will be on the hook is a bit deceptive, unless he is assuming the two conditions under which they would be - approval of the RTA proposal and the RTA acceptance of responsibility for it. Until both of those things happen, there is no way for taxpayers to fund M1 Rail even if they would like to.

[SpartanDawg]

this guy at motor city muckraker is a joke. he's just spewing out information that hasn't been confirmed and using some "anonymous source" who literally all they said was they're "concerned" b/c construction is taking longer than usual... he SPUN this into USING HIS OWN QUOTE saying "THERE ARE CONCERNS ABOUT FUNDING WHERE WILL THIS COME FROM" blah blah blah....


motor city muckraker is a trash website and that journalist is a trash journalist who uses sensationalist headlines to get more clicks on his blog [[not calling it a news site for a reason). i began ignoring anything coming from motor city muckraker a long time ago, and suggest you do the same

also the photo he used of construction is about 7-8 months old i'd say... construction has basically FINISHED from downtown all the way up to canfield [[there's a small stretch by the new arena construction unpaved, that's it).. only thing left is sidewalks and lighting.. they're hitting north midtown and new center hard right now, and half of woodward is complete pretty much the entire length of woodward.. they have the west side to complete in a small stretch of midtown.. and i expect the actual construction of woodward to be wrapped up by fall

[Towne Cluber]

Since this 3.3 mile train designed to aid parking and make Ilitch's coliseum more profitable, and does nothing for the rest of Detroit residents seeking viable public transportation, I think that Ilitch, Gilbert, Penske, and the rest of the developers along the 3.3 mile stretch, as well as the residents of Downtown and Midtown, who the train actually actually serves, should be hit with a special assessment to help offset the construction overruns. I personally am tired of shelling out on some pie-in-the-sky promise, while everyone else profits. Not sorry in the least bit.

Using that line of reasoning, the above named would be justified in requesting that any taxes paid in excess of [[an average of) what the rest of the city pays should only go towards Downtown and Midtown services. Furthermore, again using that line of reasoning, only Downtown and Midtown residents should be allowed to ride it.

[Bobl]

T C: I suspect that Honky Tonk would happily trade away potential rides on the M 1 for some improvements and security in his neighborhood.

[Honky Tonk]

Using that line of reasoning, the above named would be justified in requesting that any taxes paid in excess of [[an average of) what the rest of the city pays should only go towards Downtown and Midtown services. Furthermore, again using that line of reasoning, only Downtown and Midtown residents should be allowed to ride it.

Seeing that the majority of the developers, construction, businesses, and residents are there because of tax breaks, tax dollars, write-offs, and incentives, then start wining and threaten with leaving once the incentives and tax breaks run out, I really don't foresee much "excess taxes", so I'll take your offer. I've been on parking shuttles before.

[emu steve]

this guy at motor city muckraker is a joke. he's just spewing out information that hasn't been confirmed and using some "anonymous source" who literally all they said was they're "concerned" b/c construction is taking longer than usual... he SPUN this into USING HIS OWN QUOTE saying "THERE ARE CONCERNS ABOUT FUNDING WHERE WILL THIS COME FROM" blah blah blah....


motor city muckraker is a trash website and that journalist is a trash journalist who uses sensationalist headlines to get more clicks on his blog [[not calling it a news site for a reason). i began ignoring anything coming from motor city muckraker a long time ago, and suggest you do the same

also the photo he used of construction is about 7-8 months old i'd say... construction has basically FINISHED from downtown all the way up to canfield [[there's a small stretch by the new arena construction unpaved, that's it).. only thing left is sidewalks and lighting.. they're hitting north midtown and new center hard right now, and half of woodward is complete pretty much the entire length of woodward.. they have the west side to complete in a small stretch of midtown.. and i expect the actual construction of woodward to be wrapped up by fall

Good news that things are progressing on schedule. Summer is half over and fall will be here in two months.

[ekleezy]

Is this how the south end of the line ends? I imagined it would loop to turn around but I'm not sure now with how it looks.

[SammyS]

Is this how the south end of the line ends? I imagined it would loop to turn around but I'm not sure now with how it looks.

It's adopting the Michigan sidewalk model......it just ends 😝

[dtowncitylover]

Is this how the south end of the line ends? I imagined it would loop to turn around but I'm not sure now with how it looks.

I would imagine that the streetcars are going to have controls in the front and the back, so that front and back really doesn't exist. I remember being in Strasbourg and this is how a line would end there. The driver when then get up and move to the "back" of the streetcar and it would be the front.

[ndavies]

Yes, This is how it ends. Why build a loop when a simple crossing track with a single switch will work just as well? The train just reverses and switches over to the other track.

The cross over track can be seen in the picture in post 129 of this thread.

[Honky Tonk]

It's adopting the Michigan sidewalk model......it just ends 😝

_______________________

[EGrant]

this guy at motor city muckraker is a joke.

Laughed out loud when the holier than thou "journalist" inserted himself into the story: "I wrote in an e-mail to M-1 officials last week."

And then quoted his own email. Just like they teach in Journalism 101.

[SpartanDawg]

I would imagine that the streetcars are going to have controls in the front and the back, so that front and back really doesn't exist. I remember being in Strasbourg and this is how a line would end there. The driver when then get up and move to the "back" of the streetcar and it would be the front.

there is no front or back, you nailed it. the driver will walk to the other end of the streetcar and just go the other way. m1 officials disclosed this a while back i forget where the quote is

[ekleezy]

Got it, thanks for the replies. The only streetcar system I've seen in person is Toronto's, so that's been my main comparison. I wonder what an expansion down Jefferson would look like. It's hard to tell from the picture I posted if it would be feasible to extend south by just removing more of the median.

[professorscott]

Got it, thanks for the replies. The only streetcar system I've seen in person is Toronto's, so that's been my main comparison. I wonder what an expansion down Jefferson would look like. It's hard to tell from the picture I posted if it would be feasible to extend south by just removing more of the median.

It wouldn't be safe to have a streetcar on Jefferson between the freeways IMHO. If they are going to expand to the east eventually - which is an awesome idea and probably the best idea for a first extension - and if they were to ask me about it, I might suggest something like this: extending from Woodward east along Congress and Larned, then jumping down to Jefferson as soon as you get past 375, say at Rivard. Then east along Jefferson to, well, as far as the money will take you.

[Towne Cluber]

Seeing that the majority of the developers, construction, businesses, and residents are there because of tax breaks, tax dollars, write-offs, and incentives, then start wining and threaten with leaving once the incentives and tax breaks run out, I really don't foresee much "excess taxes", so I'll take your offer. I've been on parking shuttles before.

Again, using your line of reasoning, half of Detroiters [[outside of Downtown/Midtown) receive tax breaks, welfare, and even intentionally don't pay taxes, utilities, court fines...and there's plenty of whining and threats from them too!

So we're back to square one.

[royce]

Can someone explain to me again why the M1-Rail/Q-Line is going down the center of Woodward north of I-94?

[royce]

Also, now that the west side of Woodward will have no parking because of the curb side configuration, will cars be able to travel the speed limit along the curb or will this lane be designated for rail only?

[rbdetsport]

Also, now that the west side of Woodward will have no parking because of the curb side configuration, will cars be able to travel the speed limit along the curb or will this lane be designated for rail only?

I believe the center configuration north of I-94 has multiple reasons. First, the intent is the expand the rail at some point. Any expansion to the north would continue in the center in its own right-of-way, acting as light rail instead of streetcar. Second, I remember hearing in the past that the railroad bridge through New Center was an obstacle and that it had to be center-running to get under the bridge without significantly impacting the vertical alignment of Woodward [[I could be wrong about this, but I recall hearing/reading something like that).

[professorscott]

I believe the center configuration north of I-94 has multiple reasons. First, the intent is the expand the rail at some point. Any expansion to the north would continue in the center in its own right-of-way, acting as light rail instead of streetcar. Second, I remember hearing in the past that the railroad bridge through New Center was an obstacle and that it had to be center-running to get under the bridge without significantly impacting the vertical alignment of Woodward [[I could be wrong about this, but I recall hearing/reading something like that).

Basically correct. The freight rail bridge was an enormous obstacle and impacted several things. First, you are right, absolutely the only way to get the streetcar under the bridge was to move it to the center of the street. It wasn't even a matter of "impacting the vertical alignment of Woodward", because of how much crap is UNDER the street, it would have been prohibitively expensive to try to move Woodward farther downward the 16" or 18" that would likely have been required.

Another thing: you are probably aware that, though the streetcars will have the typical overhead wire to connect to the power source, they will be in use only for a portion of the route - not even half - and the streetcars will run on battery power most of the way. Again, the impetus for doing that came from the freight rail bridge. There simply isn't enough vertical space to put the overhead wire under it. So, you have to run without external power for that couple hundred feet, and Roger Penske & co. basically went from there to, let's see, that wire is kinda ugly anyhow, so how much can we run off-wire?

So really, an enormous amount of effort, and many of the characteristics of M-1 Rail, came from just that one bridge.