M-1 rail discussion

**royce** · August-18-16, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

Basically correct. The freight rail bridge was an enormous obstacle and impacted several things. First, you are right, absolutely the only way to get the streetcar under the bridge was to move it to the center of the street. It wasn't even a matter of "impacting the vertical alignment of Woodward", because of how much crap is UNDER the street, it would have been prohibitively expensive to try to move Woodward farther downward the 16" or 18" that would likely have been required.

Another thing: you are probably aware that, though the streetcars will have the typical overhead wire to connect to the power source, they will be in use only for a portion of the route - not even half - and the streetcars will run on battery power most of the way. Again, the impetus for doing that came from the freight rail bridge. There simply isn't enough vertical space to put the overhead wire under it. So, you have to run without external power for that couple hundred feet, and Roger Penske & co. basically went from there to, let's see, that wire is kinda ugly anyhow, so how much can we run off-wire?

So really, an enormous amount of effort, and many of the characteristics of M-1 Rail, came from just that one bridge.

Ok, professorscott, so the bridge impacted the design of the M1-Rail in that specific location. However, what I'm still not understanding is: how does the lack of wires and the height of the bridge have anything to do with the placement of the M1-Rail rail tracks in the center or along the curb of Woodward? Is there going to be an elevation of the track under the bridge that can only be done in the center and not along the curb side?

These are the types of questions that would be answered if there was a computer simulation of the M1-Rail system. Why isn't there one on the system's website? I remember when D-DOT planned a light-rail system that was going to be center operated and go to Eight Mile. One of the first things they did was release a video showing how the rail system would work and function. Too many unanswered questions with M1-Rail in my opinion.

**professorscott** · August-18-16, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by royce

Ok, professorscott, so the bridge impacted the design of the M1-Rail in that specific location. However, what I'm still not understanding is: how does the lack of wires and the height of the bridge have anything to do with the placement of the M1-Rail rail tracks in the center or along the curb of Woodward? Is there going to be an elevation of the track under the bridge that can only be done in the center and not along the curb side?

It has to do with several things, all related to the bridge, the street under it, and the stuff under the street. This work was done a long time ago and I don't remember all of the specifics. But in order to get clearance for the street to be rebuilt and put in a proper base to support the street and the tracks, it had to go in the center.

It's not intuitive - the bridge doesn't have any kind of arch shape to it, and the road is crowned, so it is actually higher in the center than along the edges. But it had to be done that way. My guess, since I don't recall, is it had more to do with what is under Woodward and where it is, than the bridge itself. Paul has the engineering documents, so I supposed if I really needed to know I could bug him, but I would surmise he's pretty busy these days.

**royce** · August-22-16, 01:31 AM

Thx, professorscott.

**royce** · August-22-16, 02:00 AM

Driving down Woodward during the construction of the M1-Rail and the resurfacing of Woodward Avenue, I started to imagine different configurations for the nine lanes of Woodward. In the first scenario, each side of the street would lose a traffic lane and the center left turn lane. So, from east to west, beginning at the curb, you would have a parking lane, two traffic lanes going northbound [[M1 in one), two traffic lanes going southbound, a parking lane, sidewalk, a two-way bike lane, the southbound/curbside M1-Rail tracks, and the traditional sidewalk along the buildings. In the second scenario, the center left turn lane would be added back, but the two-way bike lane would be eliminated. If that was the configuration, then bikers could use the same lane as the M1-Rail and then transfer onto the inner sidewalk. Who says that streets have to be symmetrical.

**emu steve** · August-22-16, 09:09 PM

Latest article and metrics of progress made.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...oute/89117610/

Officials continue to shoot for early 2017 as the start of passenger operations on the line. M-1 Rail on Monday announced that the track installation is 83% complete, station construction 40% complete, traction power substations to provide power for the system is almost 40% complete, overhead catenary system is at 60%, with 85% of poles installed.
M-1 Rail also announced the installation of overhead catenary wiring along the route from Warren to Ferry and Congress to Larned. "While the lines are not yet active, the public is urged to treat the wire as live," M-1 Rail said.

**professorscott** · August-23-16, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by emu steve

"While the lines are not yet active, the public is urged to treat the wire as live," M-1 Rail said.

That's super critical. At some point in the future, somebody is going to start throwing breakers, at which point the wires will be live - and I doubt they are going to tell everyone about it each time they do that.

**royce** · September-06-16, 11:52 PM

Has anyone noticed that there are two crisscross rails along the line. One is in front of the Red Wings arena and the other is in front of Compuware. If there are two tracks on each side of the street, when would crossing over at these points be necessary? Would this be for emergency reasons just in case something was blocking one of the tracks, the car could go over to the other side temporarily and then get back on the right track down the road?

**MSUguy** · September-07-16, 12:42 AM

This weekend is probably the perfect example when the crossovers would be needed with jazz fest occupying Woodward.

**professorscott** · September-07-16, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by royce

Has anyone noticed that there are two crisscross rails along the line. One is in front of the Red Wings arena and the other is in front of Compuware. If there are two tracks on each side of the street, when would crossing over at these points be necessary? Would this be for emergency reasons just in case something was blocking one of the tracks, the car could go over to the other side temporarily and then get back on the right track down the road?

Crossovers are put into double-track systems to provide operational flexibility. The simplest situation is a train breaking down somewhere along the line - you can use the other track to get around it. This disrupts operations but does not shut down the entire system. Your example is valid as well, for example a car accident occurs and the car can't immediately be moved off the track. All light rail systems have these. [[Freight railways have them too, but they are sometimes very far apart.)

**Detroitdave** · September-09-16, 08:45 AM

So it looks like they are finally putting the stops in and they look interesting .

**Detroitdave** · September-09-16, 08:49 AM

OK so I tried to edit the picture TWICE ! LOL a little help here , Thanks !

Feel free to delete one and rotate the picture to it's right position.

**emu steve** · September-09-16, 10:53 AM

Name: QLine.jpg
Views: 639
Size: 65.6 KB

Hope this works...

**Detroitdave** · September-09-16, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by emu steve

Hope this works...

Thank you Steve you rock !

**CrashDummy** · September-11-16, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitdave

So it looks like they are finally putting the stops in and they look interesting .Attachment 31539

Looks like there is going to be craft beer at the stops? That is interesting.

As far as the crossovers, I think that during events at the arena, all pickups and drop-offs will be at the stop on the east side of Woodward to avoid congestion next to the arena itself. That would be a reason to have a crossover there. And, as MSUguy said, similarly when events are going on downtown between Campus Martius and Cadillac Square, rail traffic could be switched over to travel only along the west side of the park.

**ndavies** · September-11-16, 12:32 PM

On Flashpoint they announced first streetcar will be delivered this week.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/flashp...e-car-revelaed

**Bobl** · September-11-16, 01:23 PM

Good news. I will seldom use this, but it will be nice to be free of the construction and paving. Good also to see that the Michigan and Trumball area is being repaired.

**casscorridor** · September-11-16, 09:53 PM

From what I can tell the platforms look like they can only fit one-carriage trains. Pretty short sighted, as they will need to be rebuilt and lengthened if more capacity is needed down the line.

Also, the marketing of the line is very misleading when they say "6.6 miles..." No. It's 3.3 miles. What a sneaky little trick to hype up this disappointing project.

**Bobl** · September-11-16, 10:52 PM

Yes, it's 3.3 miles, and I suppose it would be possible to load a two carriage train, one at a time at the stops. I'm just glad the damned construction and paving is coming to an end.

**dtowncitylover** · September-12-16, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

From what I can tell the platforms look like they can only fit one-carriage trains. Pretty short sighted, as they will need to be rebuilt and lengthened if more capacity is needed down the line.

Also, the marketing of the line is very misleading when they say "6.6 miles..." No. It's 3.3 miles. What a sneaky little trick to hype up this disappointing project.

LOL Because you know, transit projects are rarely reconfigured to address increased capacity. So I guess you're also saying demand could rise. Awesome, that's good! But it's probably perception issue. It may look like the platforms are too short, but probably not. Only the doors need access to the platforms. Streetcars aren't exactly the 20th Century Limited.

3.3 miles northbound. 3.3 miles southbound. 6.6 miles entirely. Misleading marketing or are you too lazy to do math?

But you know, whatever DYes can find to complain about it does!

**rbdetsport** · September-12-16, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

LOL Because you know, transit projects are rarely reconfigured to address increased capacity. So I guess you're also saying demand could rise. Awesome, that's good! But it's probably perception issue. It may look like the platforms are too short, but probably not. Only the doors need access to the platforms. Streetcars aren't exactly the 20th Century Limited.

3.3 miles northbound. 3.3 miles southbound. 6.6 miles entirely. Misleading marketing or are you too lazy to do math?

But you know, whatever DYes can find to complain about it does!

Transit systems are measured in linear distance traveled, not the amount of rail. If this had been a center-running facility, they would NEVER use the 6.6 mile figure. I cringe every time I read them calling the QLine a "loop". It is not a loop, it is a linear system that just so happens to be on opposite sides of the road. The 6.6 mile figure is misleading.

**dtowncitylover** · September-12-16, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by rbdetsport

Transit systems are measured in linear distance traveled, not the amount of rail. If this had been a center-running facility, they would NEVER use the 6.6 mile figure. I cringe every time I read them calling the QLine a "loop". It is not a loop, it is a linear system that just so happens to be on opposite sides of the road. The 6.6 mile figure is misleading.

Very true about the loop. That's even more misleading because then you give credence to people saying this the PM 2.0.

Also what does "...and the project will officially begin running in November" mean?

1) This is a transit service, not a 5th grade science experiment. 2) Does this mean it will begin running 4-5 months ahead of schedule. 3) Or does this just mean for the testing? Now that's misleading!

**professorscott** · September-12-16, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

From what I can tell the platforms look like they can only fit one-carriage trains. Pretty short sighted, as they will need to be rebuilt and lengthened if more capacity is needed down the line.

There are several reasons they didn't want to go to the additional infrastructure expense that would have been necessary to support multiple-vehicle consists, and that's not going to happen, likely ever. If they need additional capacity they will just buy more vehicles and reduce headway.

As to your other point, it's 3.3 miles and it's not a loop, no matter how anybody chooses to puff it up

**emu steve** · September-12-16, 12:55 PM

Another milestone to be hit:

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...cars/90261838/

**casscorridor** · September-12-16, 02:44 PM

Do you think, one day it would be possible to make the streetcar dedicated tracks by building concrete barriers along the tracks, then placing protected bike lanes on each side, with auto traffic in the middle with 2 lanes and turn lane/median. What do you all think?

**SpartanDawg** · September-12-16, 02:45 PM

also all lanes on woodward now are open between warren-ish and just north of the arena.. i was shocked this morning driving back from work to see them all open, felt amazing. woodward is really coming together and it looks great! excited to see what plants or trees they put in all the islands in the middle of the road [[right now they just are dug up and have tarp in them, awaiting greenery)