M-1 rail discussion

[SpartanDawg]

So i was perusing through some of the M-1 rail documents available on their website... besides some pretty cool renderings I saw a table where they compared benefits and cons to having it curb-side vs. down the middle

obviously they were considering both and I know that's a major problem among many people who have beef with it being curb-side... anyways just thought i'd show that, plus a couple cool renderings..

also i heard from an article posted a few days ago [[via stacy-witbeck) that construction of the rail itself is set to start next month... who knows anymore but still.. i'm sure we will see it soon enough!


also kind of funny we wont' be seeing this building on the left anymore... set to be demolished to make way for the new wayne state physician group building this summer

obviously these are preliminary renderings but those stations look pretty slick.. hope they have this kind of design



also found what looks like where they think future bus rapid transit routes may go

[Detroitnerd]

Hey, that's great. But can you wipe that brown stuff off your nose? You obviously spent a little too much time kissing up the curbside parking trolley backers' hinder parts.

[SpartanDawg]

Hey, that's great. But can you wipe that brown stuff off your nose? You obviously spent a little too much time kissing up the curbside parking trolley backers' hinder parts.

lol good one

[Scottathew]

Hey, that's great. But can you wipe that brown stuff off your nose? You obviously spent a little too much time kissing up the curbside parking trolley backers' hinder parts.

You seem to discuss people more than ideas, that's a common theme. Instead of attacking, you should instead try supporting whatever stance you have with opinion and facts.

The OP presents a lot of data, as well as personal opinion.

Personally, I'm for center-run. I worry a lot about cars breaking down on the tracks as well as snow removal issues with curbside. Center-run conflicts less with vehicle traffic.

[Hermod]

Personally, I'm for center-run. I worry a lot about cars breaking down on the tracks as well as snow removal issues with curbside. Center-run conflicts less with vehicle traffic.

OK, a multi-car train runs down the center line. It is jam packed full of Detroiters. It reaches a popular stop. Do all of the debarking passengers file down to the crosswalk and wait for the light to change before going to the sidewalk? Do the Detroiters surge in a mass across the traffic lanes in the middle of the block bringing traffic to a standstill?

[getmoore]

Does anyone know if this is the actual design of the new cars?
http://detroit.curbed.com/archives/2...-look-like.php

[Hermod]

Does anyone know if this is the actual design of the new cars?
http://detroit.curbed.com/archives/2...-look-like.php

Or maybe just like this one?

Attachment 22727

[Scottathew]

OK, a multi-car train runs down the center line. It is jam packed full of Detroiters. It reaches a popular stop. Do all of the debarking passengers file down to the crosswalk and wait for the light to change before going to the sidewalk? Do the Detroiters surge in a mass across the traffic lanes in the middle of the block bringing traffic to a standstill?

There would be stations designed to allow people to get off the train and be protected from traffic and queue at the station. Stations would be near existing crosswalks with signals, or new ones would be erected in extreme cases. Lights could be controlled so that shortly after a train arrives that it stops NB\SB traffic and allows folks to cross. Although there is a seemingly true stereotype\generalization that folks in Detroit don't understand how a crosswalk works.

Your scenario can go both ways. There's a very popular stop for curbside rail, but Comerica Park is on the other side of Woodward. Do all the people go running out into the street? Or do they have to queue on the west side of Woodward to wait to cross?

The only difference is that with center-run you will always have to cross half the street, with curbside you only have to cross the street half the time, but you must cross all lanes, not just half.

[ASR89]

I can foresee problems with the side-running alignment. I see it a lot: If there are a lot of cars parked in or a bus is stopped in the parking lane, other buses will stop in the driving lane next to the parking lane to let passengers off or for them to board. Also, I dropped a co-worker off at the main Detroit library in Midtown one afternoon the day after one of the recent big snowstorms. The parking lane right in front was halfway covered in snow and there were some cars that took up half of the far right driving lane. The streetcar can’t maneuver off the rails when there is an obstruction, so these obstructions will cause significant delays to passengers. Are they supposed to wait an extra 5-10 minutes for a tow truck to come every time a car stops on the tracks, or wait it out when a bus takes on or lets off passengers?

[professorscott]

I can foresee problems with the side-running alignment. I see it a lot: If there are a lot of cars parked in or a bus is stopped in the parking lane, other buses will stop in the driving lane next to the parking lane to let passengers off or for them to board. Also, I dropped a co-worker off at the main Detroit library in Midtown one afternoon the day after one of the recent big snowstorms. The parking lane right in front was halfway covered in snow and there were some cars that took up half of the far right driving lane. The streetcar can’t maneuver off the rails when there is an obstruction, so these obstructions will cause significant delays to passengers. Are they supposed to wait an extra 5-10 minutes for a tow truck to come every time a car stops on the tracks, or wait it out when a bus takes on or lets off passengers?

You know, there are systems like this all over the place, and have been for years and years. There is abundant information about them. Read up a little before you start presenting hypotheticals as obstacles. For the question about buses stopped in front of the streetcar, they won't be. Bus stops will be in the parking lane; the streetcar will be in the lane to the immediate left of the parking lane.

Typically how parking is managed is, before the streetcar starts running, lines are painted on the left side of where cars are supposed to park, and every car projecting a millimeter beyond that line is ticketed with a warning that on streetcar day such cars will be towed. Inevitably somebody complains to [[say) channel 2, which does a story, then everybody gets the message. It will happen, but not so frequently as to be a problem. Retrieving a towed car is a frighteningly expensive and difficult proposition.

[ABetterDetroit]

Typically how parking is managed is, before the streetcar starts running, lines are painted on the left side of where cars are supposed to park, and every car projecting a millimeter beyond that line is ticketed with a warning that on streetcar day such cars will be towed. Inevitably somebody complains to [[say) channel 2, which does a story, then everybody gets the message. It will happen, but not so frequently as to be a problem. Retrieving a towed car is a frighteningly expensive and difficult proposition.

It is going to be real exciting to have all these problems that vibrant cites have like congestion, to many people, the access and right of way for public transport just to name a few. It's going to be great.

[SpartanDawg]

ok the snow removal thing is not gonna be an issue... currently they pile snow up on the curbs and sometimes in the middle lanes as well.. it's a matter of choice.. you really think with the rail being there that the snow removal people are still gonna do that?? that's a non-issue..

as far as people parking sure there may be some people towed the first few months.. just a matter of people getting used to it.. however if they make an effort to clearly label 'no parking' and have signs I really don't think people are that dumb where it's going to be a serious issue past maybe the first week? if at all.

[wolverine]

You know, there are systems like this all over the place, and have been for years and years. There is abundant information about them. Read up a little before you start presenting hypotheticals as obstacles. For the question about buses stopped in front of the streetcar, they won't be. Bus stops will be in the parking lane; the streetcar will be in the lane to the immediate left of the parking lane.

Typically how parking is managed is, before the streetcar starts running, lines are painted on the left side of where cars are supposed to park, and every car projecting a millimeter beyond that line is ticketed with a warning that on streetcar day such cars will be towed. Inevitably somebody complains to [[say) channel 2, which does a story, then everybody gets the message. It will happen, but not so frequently as to be a problem. Retrieving a towed car is a frighteningly expensive and difficult proposition.

There's more center running systems than curbside. Every time someone says "there's plenty of systems out there like Detroit's" they always list streetcar line in cities that are the total opposite.

You can run rail curbside of course, but you can't have cars cross over or drive on the tracks ever to run effectively.

Detroit's system will pretty much be as close as you can get to a bus swapped out rubber wheels for steel.

The reality in planning and design is always assume enforcement will be poor and maintenance will be non-existent and design from there. You could have 99.9% efficiency on a given line with motorists staying clear of tracks or cars getting towed. But I guarantee you that 0.1% will be one bad driver that opens their car door without looking and suddenly paralyzes service for an hour.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Informative post, SpartanDawg. I see merit in both curb-side and center running light rail. I guess we're going to be having a blended system, and that's fine. Either way it's a big bump over what we have now.

[ABetterDetroit]

Hypothetical forced choice question-
Would the center run advocates prefer for the M1 rail line to be postponed to a indefinate date because of a lack of adequate funds if it cost more or have the curbside break ground this spring if say that system cost less?

[Jason]

Hypothetical forced choice question-
Would the center run advocates prefer for the M1 rail line to be postponed to a indefinate date because of a lack of adequate funds if it cost more or have the curbside break ground this spring if say that system cost less?

If it's postponed/failed it could be decades before transit could happen.

If this is built wrong, which it will be, then at least there's something to build off, and future lines and extensions will be more possible, and those can be done right.

[Scottathew]

If it's postponed/failed it could be decades before transit could happen.

If this is built wrong, which it will be, then at least there's something to build off, and future lines and extensions will be more possible, and those can be done right.

If I wanted to argue with you, I would say: "Yeah, check out the People Mover and how that turned out!"

But I do agree, we need to move forward with it. We really need to push getting it up into the suburban communities. Imagine housing prices within walking distance to Woodward going up. Imagine density going up too. This would have similar effects in both Detroit and the 'burbs, although I think the suburbs would get more benefit.

[Bham1982]

Imagine housing prices within walking distance to Woodward going up. Imagine density going up too. This would have similar effects in both Detroit and the 'burbs, although I think the suburbs would get more benefit.

Yeah, the last trolley we had running downtown had a big impact on property values. It took Jefferson and Washington Boulevard, and turned them both into vacant ghost towns. This time, though, I'm sure the trolley will turn the Cass Corridor into Hong Kong.

[masterblaster]

Imagine housing prices within walking distance to Woodward going up. Imagine density going up too. This would have similar effects in both Detroit and the 'burbs, although I think the suburbs would get more benefit.

Why would the suburbs get more benefit? Boston-Edison, the New Center, the North End, Milwaukee Junction, Highland Park, Palmer Park Apartments, Palmer Park itself, Grixdale would likely receive significant investment, especially if strides are made to decrease crime.

In addition, all of this extension talk is probably of no consequence, because it has already been decided that BRT will run from downtown to Pontiac, and the streetcar will only be 3 miles long.

[Khorasaurus]

I am very confused by this chart. Center running would have caused the elimination of a business?

Regardless, I'm pumped for this. It's going to be a huge improvement over what we have now, even with its flaws.

[SpartanDawg]

also this is going to be the configuration of Woodward through midtown and downtown [[from Adams St to Burroughs St top pic / downtown bottom pic)

So obviously the biggest thing that I see as a plus is going through midtown it cuts down to 5 lanes of moving traffic. I love that as a midtown resident because i feel like it will slow down the cars and make it much more walkable. I feel like now with it being basically 9 lanes people fly down it and it just seems so disconnected.

[royce]

also this is going to be the configuration of Woodward through midtown and downtown [[from Adams St to Burroughs St top pic / downtown bottom pic)

So obviously the biggest thing that I see as a plus is going through midtown it cuts down to 5 lanes of moving traffic. I love that as a midtown resident because i feel like it will slow down the cars and make it much more walkable. I feel like now with it being basically 9 lanes people fly down it and it just seems so disconnected.

That can't be true in Midtown [[see attachment 22725). What I see is the rail line being constructed in the parking lane from I-94 southbound to just before the Fox Theater. There is no reduction of traffic lanes in Midtown. Five lanes exist south of Grand Circus Park but not in Midtown.

Also, the more I see the construction of this M1 Rail line, the more anger and disappointment I experience. I've talked before about my disappointment in seeing so many parking spots eliminated on the southbound side of Woodward, as the M1 Rail goes where the parking lanes exist. However, what I can't understand is the logic as to why it is so necessary to have the rail take up the parking lanes when it could have easily have been placed in the second lane from the curb? That's the way it's being built on the northbound side, right? And then to confuse me even more, the rail line veers into the second lane and maybe the third lane in front of the Fox Theater and Grand Circus Park. Why wouldn't the rail go right up against the curb in front of the Fox?

Another issue concerns the rail line taking up spaces in front of the Detroit Main Library. Parents dropping off or picking up their children in front of the Detroit Public Library are going to have to risk getting a fine because of "standing" in the rails path. I mean are they really supposed to park across Woodward in front of the DIA and wait for the kids to make a mad dash across the nine lanes of traffic? Are parents supposed to park on Kirby or Putnam, hoping they can see the kids leave the front entrance of the library? You know that there are no side entrances to the library, right? In addition, will the bus stop in front of the library be eliminated? Actually, won't all bus stops on the southbound side be in the way of the rail line?

What will delivery drivers do as well? And heaven forbid a car stalls and has to pull over to previously designated parking lane. Also, so much for picking up a carry-out order in front of Detroit One Coney Island, China One, or Fatburger? Who among you can explain the logic of constucting the southbound rail lines in the parking lane of a nine lane street?

[dtowncitylover]

That can't be true in Midtown [[see attachment 22725). What I see is the rail line being constructed in the parking lane from I-94 southbound to just before the Fox Theater. There is no reduction of traffic lanes in Midtown. Five lanes exist south of Grand Circus Park but not in Midtown.

Also, the more I see the construction of this M1 Rail line, the more anger and disappointment I experience. I've talked before about my disappointment in seeing so many parking spots eliminated on the southbound side of Woodward, as the M1 Rail goes where the parking lanes exist. However, what I can't understand is the logic as to why it is so necessary to have the rail take up the parking lanes when it could have easily have been placed in the second lane from the curb? That's the way it's being built on the northbound side, right? And then to confuse me even more, the rail line veers into the second lane and maybe the third lane in front of the Fox Theater and Grand Circus Park. Why wouldn't the rail go right up against the curb in front of the Fox?

Another issue concerns the rail line taking up spaces in front of the Detroit Main Library. Parents dropping off or picking up their children in front of the Detroit Public Library are going to have to risk getting a fine because of "standing" in the rails path. I mean are they really supposed to park across Woodward in front of the DIA and wait for the kids to make a mad dash across the nine lanes of traffic? Are parents supposed to park on Kirby or Putnam, hoping they can see the kids leave the front entrance of the library? You know that there are no side entrances to the library, right? In addition, will the bus stop in front of the library be eliminated? Actually, won't all bus stops on the southbound side be in the way of the rail line?

What will delivery drivers do as well? And heaven forbid a car stalls and has to pull over to previously designated parking lane. Also, so much for picking up a carry-out order in front of Detroit One Coney Island, China One, or Fatburger? Who among you can explain the logic of constucting the southbound rail lines in the parking lane of a nine lane street?

All I'm getting from your post is that somehow parking on Woodward is going to cause great chaos when there's literally thousands upon thousands of more parking spaces elsewhere throughout the midtown and downtown areas. You have Cass, Second, Third to the west, John R and Brush to the east.

Then you're complaining about parents and the Library? Yeah, go over to Kirby, Putnam, or Cass to wait. Kids these days either have cell phones or coordinate with their parents before hand. It's not that difficult.

And if you're in midtown and ordering food and not either walking to food or delivering it but instead DRIVING, you seriously need a crash course in urban living.

Welcome to city living where parking is NOT a guaranteed right.

[royce]

All I'm getting from your post is that somehow parking on Woodward is going to cause great chaos when there's literally thousands upon thousands of more parking spaces elsewhere throughout the midtown and downtown areas. You have Cass, Second, Third to the west, John R and Brush to the east.

Then you're complaining about parents and the Library? Yeah, go over to Kirby, Putnam, or Cass to wait. Kids these days either have cell phones or coordinate with their parents before hand. It's not that difficult.

And if you're in midtown and ordering food and not either walking to food or delivering it but instead DRIVING, you seriously need a crash course in urban living.

Welcome to city living where parking is NOT a guaranteed right.

Well, if all you are getting is my complaints about eliminating parking then you didn't read the entire post. However, lack of parking in front of the library will pose a problem. Being able to see your kids leave a building is a safety issue. Parking on a side street talking to them on the cell phone doesn't prevent a stranger from snatching them while you're talking to them. The Cass entrance to the library is already very restrictive when it comes to parking. Taking away the parking from Woodward just makes the Cass entrance parking situation more problematic.

In addition, parked cars serve as a buffer for people to feel safe walking along sidewalks on busy streets. No one feels safe eating outdoors along a sidewalk where cars or other vehicles travel right along the curb. I believe Jane Jacobs talked about this phenomenon in her famous book on cities. In cities like Birmingham and Ann Arbor you have outdoor seating where you have parked cars. If there are no parked cars, then the seating is elevated along the curb and usually on a street with slower traffic, not like Woodward. How many outdoor arrangements will pop up on the southbound lanes of Woodward? Also, what happens if a hotel wants to build along that side of Woodward? Even at the Westin Book Cadillac or other hotels in other cities [[like the one in Chicago along Michigan Avenue), you can still pull up and drop off or pick people up in front of the hotel. The rail in that lane makes that problematic.

Also, why eliminate parking from the parking lane when the M1-Rail could easily travel in the second lane from the curb. You didn't answer this part of my complaint. If it being done on the northbound lanes, why can't it be done on the southbound lanes?

The other issue deals with delivery trucks. At some point UPS and other trucks like pop and beer trucks have to park in front of a store or restaurant that they're delivering to. Won't they force the rail to stop and wait. And what about bus stops? Not that busses take a long time to load passengers, but won't they too slow down the rail when they pick up passengers?

The logic to have the rail in the second lane on the northbound lanes makes sense. Choosing not to have the rail in the second lane on the southbound lanes doesn't. This issue bothers me so because once the rails are in place, that's it. It's permanent. Trust me. There will be issues and problems with the southbound rail line. It just seems to me that most of these issues/problems could have been avoided by placing the rail lines in the second lane. History will judge whether or not my concerns have merit. Again, I need someone to explain the "logic" behind this configuration.

BTW, I have lived in the city all my life. I have been to many of the so called "world class" cities. They have parking scenarios that make sense to me. Only in Detroit do we do things bass ackwards.

[Junjie]

Well, if all you are getting is my complaints about eliminating parking then you didn't read the entire post. However, lack of parking in front of the library will pose a problem. Being able to see your kids leave a building is a safety issue. Parking on a side street talking to them on the cell phone doesn't prevent a stranger from snatching them while you're talking to them. The Cass entrance to the library is already very restrictive when it comes to parking. Taking away the parking from Woodward just makes the Cass entrance parking situation more problematic.

In addition, parked cars serve as a buffer for people to feel safe walking along sidewalks on busy streets. No one feels safe eating outdoors along a sidewalk where cars or other vehicles travel right along the curb. I believe Jane Jacobs talked about this phenomenon in her famous book on cities. In cities like Birmingham and Ann Arbor you have outdoor seating where you have parked cars. If there are no parked cars, then the seating is elevated along the curb and usually on a street with slower traffic, not like Woodward. How many outdoor arrangements will pop up on the southbound lanes of Woodward? Also, what happens if a hotel wants to build along that side of Woodward? Even at the Westin Book Cadillac or other hotels in other cities [[like the one in Chicago along Michigan Avenue), you can still pull up and drop off or pick people up in front of the hotel. The rail in that lane makes that problematic.

Also, why eliminate parking from the parking lane when the M1-Rail could easily travel in the second lane from the curb. You didn't answer this part of my complaint. If it being done on the northbound lanes, why can't it be done on the southbound lanes?

The other issue deals with delivery trucks. At some point UPS and other trucks like pop and beer trucks have to park in front of a store or restaurant that they're delivering to. Won't they force the rail to stop and wait. And what about bus stops? Not that busses take a long time to load passengers, but won't they too slow down the rail when they pick up passengers?

The logic to have the rail in the second lane on the northbound lanes makes sense. Choosing not to have the rail in the second lane on the southbound lanes doesn't. This issue bothers me so because once the rails are in place, that's it. It's permanent. Trust me. There will be issues and problems with the southbound rail line. It just seems to me that most of these issues/problems could have been avoided by placing the rail lines in the second lane. History will judge whether or not my concerns have merit. Again, I need someone to explain the "logic" behind this configuration.

BTW, I have lived in the city all my life. I have been to many of the so called "world class" cities. They have parking scenarios that make sense to me. Only in Detroit do we do things bass ackwards.

Whole thing should've been center running anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egc_MwazUWo