Belle Isle State Park

[ABetterDetroit]

I for one am just dang happy that the city doesn't have to endlessly debate the future of the aquarium, its the states problem now and they have deeper pockets. Best tool in the box!

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

ABetterDetroit, you are correct on that front. Whatever changes & improvements the state is going to make, I hope they come relatively quickly and orderly. No sending things back to committee, negotiating with a million constituencies, lawsuits by the malcontented.

[Detroitnerd]

DN, quite the bitching. And bring some fact. If there's a reduction in park use by 'poor people', let's hear the facts and then think about solutions.

Even if there is a drop in 'poor people' at the park, that's not necessarily such a big deal. A society fixes things. Poor people shouldn't stay poor. Social programs help people. Charities help people. Government helps people. People help people... yes -- even poor people.

So bring a solution -- not just a bitch.

Suck it, Wes. I'm able to complain to my heart's content. There is no onus on me to provide any fucking "solution". And who made you the forum administrator and didn't tell us all? How the fuck are people supposed to know there's a problem unless it's discussed loud and clear?

And you know what you do when you tell people not to bitch? You are offering ... a bitch. So shut it, hypocrite.

[corktownyuppie]

Suck it, Wes. I'm able to complain to my heart's content. There is no onus on me to provide any fucking "solution". And who made you the forum administrator and didn't tell us all? How the fuck are people supposed to know there's a problem unless it's discussed loud and clear?

And you know what you do when you tell people not to bitch? You are offering ... a bitch. So shut it, hypocrite.

February 12, 2014: The Day DetroitNerd Admits to Being a Complainer With No Solutions

[Dan Wesson]

DNR's website on Belle Isle

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7...025---,00.html

Does The Island have a closing time of 10 pm and open at 6am currently?

[GUSHI]

Crime will go down, I hope they put a Tim Hortons on the island, lol [[j/k)

[softailrider]

And who exactly is going to be standing at the entrance checking plates for the little "P" on the tag? In other state parks I've been in that require the park permit, I've yet to see anyone verifying that cars are compliant.

But checking for loitering, loud music, open beer and burning herb.....of that I have no doubt.

There will be somebody checking, at least the vast majority of the time.

[EastsideAl]

DNR's website on Belle Isle

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7...025---,00.html

Does The Island have a closing time of 10 pm and open at 6am currently?

I'm not sure if it's official policy, but the police block off the entrances to the park by 10 or so most nights.

[downtownguy]

Some of you would do well to stop mocking DetroitNerd for a few seconds and at least listen to his concerns. Sure, when you can lose $11 out of your wallet and not notice, it's easy to amortize an $11 fee over a year. But to someone with very limited resources, they don't have the benefit of amortization because they are weighing several other critical needs for that $11 right now. NOW!

So what will happen, IMHO, in most of these cases is they will just pass on any possibility of going to Belle Isle at all. Which, to me, diminishes it's standing as a PUBLIC park.

Since it is still owned by the City of Detroit and legally a city asset, I would have preferred an arrangement where people below a certain income threshold would have been allowed an exemption from the state permit. To those who use the argument that state control [[without any specific dollar investment in writing) is a good move because it will bring a somewhat poorly maintained park [[not a dump) up to quality standards, I say, what about those who live with below standard conditions every day and just want to have a peaceful escape? You can justify the $11/year, 21¢ a week, 3¢ a day, .126¢ an hour fee all you want, but to some people -- including many that are hard working citizens -- they have other priorities.

[GUSHI]

It only a few bucks, next time you sell the bridge card to the local party store put a few bucks on the side for the park. If you can't afford it go play in a abandoned lot.

[Khorasaurus]

Some of you would do well to stop mocking DetroitNerd for a few seconds and at least listen to his concerns. Sure, when you can lose $11 out of your wallet and not notice, it's easy to amortize an $11 fee over a year. But to someone with very limited resources, they don't have the benefit of amortization because they are weighing several other critical needs for that $11 right now. NOW!

So what will happen, IMHO, in most of these cases is they will just pass on any possibility of going to Belle Isle at all. Which, to me, diminishes it's standing as a PUBLIC park.

Since it is still owned by the City of Detroit and legally a city asset, I would have preferred an arrangement where people below a certain income threshold would have been allowed an exemption from the state permit. To those who use the argument that state control [[without any specific dollar investment in writing) is a good move because it will bring a somewhat poorly maintained park [[not a dump) up to quality standards, I say, what about those who live with below standard conditions every day and just want to have a peaceful escape? You can justify the $11/year, 21¢ a week, 3¢ a day, .126¢ an hour fee all you want, but to some people -- including many that are hard working citizens -- they have other priorities.

Here's my issue. In order to need to pay the fee, these people need to own a car, which means they have a lot of annual expenses that are a hell of a lot more than 11 bucks. The average cost to own and operate a car is $10,000 per year.

I don't doubt that there are people that will struggle to find the $11 to take their car to Belle Isle. But I'm much, much more concerned that our horrible transit system and messed up land use pattern forces those exact same people to shell out $10,000 every year just to get around.

We need better transit, including a bus that goes to Belle Isle. Getting upset about the $11 is missing the forest for the trees.

[corktownyuppie]

Getting upset about the $11 is missing the forest for the trees.

At best. Disingenuous at worst.

If you're really concerned about the poorest among us, save your breath about the < $1/mo. Advocate for highly usable transit to the park. That's something that is totally reasonable to get on board with, and I would find it far more challenging to develop an argument against that.

All you'd need to do is add one stop on a bus that runs up and down Jefferson, and you'd be done.

[Gannon]

I'm not sure if it's official policy, but the police block off the entrances to the park by 10 or so most nights.

Since the end of the Kwhyme misadministration, I have never encountered any difficulty entering the island at any time of the day or night.

I go often, and sometimes at very odd times. Occasionally, even even.

[BillyBBrew]

Welp, when you have to renew your registration, and scrape together the money to do so, asking even ten more dollars can be a lot. Then there's the matter of how many people have expired tags because they simply can't renew. I predict you will see whole families start getting detained and ticketed on Belle Isle and then the kids start crying, and tempers start flaring, and proud parents start yelling, and then people get arrested.

Every since I read this, shortly after it was posted, it has rubbed me the wrong way. I live in Detroit, my driver license and insurance say Detroit. I'm way over on the scale towards being poor and while I have a decent income, I don't have a lot of disposable income.

I have very mixed feelings about uninsured and unregistered drivers. On one hand, the costs in Detroit are astronomical, including mine partly because of uninsured drivers. On the other hand, I can understand why people are driving unregistered without insurance.

I kind of feel that if you can pay a few bucks to get an insurance policy soley for the purpose of registering and then not continuing the policy and going uninsured, and Belle Isle is a priority [[because there are no other parks in Detroit, particularly along the river), you can take $11 of the several thousand dollars you'll save by driving uninsured and get the recreational passport. If I was driving without insurance or proper registration, I would not be going to Belle Isle, I would only be going where it was absolutely necessary to drive, like work, or the grocery store. This isn't even taking into account that I'm subsidizing uninsured drivers with my high insurance rates, proper registration and still have managed to buy the passport every year since they started doing it. $11/yr is a small price to pay to have use of every state and DNR park in the state. If you can't afford $11 a year to go to Belle Isle, you probably should just go to the Riverwalk, Rouge Park, Balduck Park, Mt. Elliot Park, Gabriel Richard Park since they will likely be better maintained now that the city doesn't have to maintain Belle Isle. I guess my point is that if you aren't properly insured or registered, you shouldn't be driving at all, but if you do, at least it should only be for necessary things, not for pleasure and that Belle Isle is not the only park option in the city.

[Zacha341]

$11 a year is affordable IMO if it is important to you to go. A designated driver with appropriate 'paperwork' can be the transpo for those lacking. The ship as sailed re. who has stewardship of the park here onward for a few decades. I look forward to the improvements slated.

[JohnnyFreddy]

This is true but people don't usually amortize costs like this. They'll see the fee as an entrance fee. Once-a-year type users like myself will see it as an admission charge per visit, and lower income types will be less likely to be paying extra online for the annual pass during license renewal.

It's already stopped me from going to the park, because I used to swing by the arboretum and Dossin museum occasionally when I was on Jefferson on weekends, or when I was downtown with out-of-towners. I don't have the park pass, so I don't bother anymore.

For the cruising, you're probably talking teens and 20-somethings engaging in relatively spontaneous activitity. I don't see any reason why it would continue when everyone has to pay. Just go to Rouge or Chandler, as the cars and people are the attractions, not the Windsor skyline.

For pickicking, you're probably talking large groups of people related by blood, friendship, or activities coming from all over the place to meet and greet. Moving the picnic to a regular municipal park in the area means saving hundreds of dollars collectively, and is a pretty big no-brainer for folks of limited means.

a) ALL your assumptions are absolutely ridiculous. Nothing of what you say is remotely normal or even possible.
b) You're just looking for ANYTHING negative you can come up with.
c) Why would you avoid Belle Isle Park, when the fee doesn't even go into effect until your birthday?
d) Bull frikkin' shit dude.

[NickCharles]

You folks sure are adept at turning anything into a "baby, hold my earrings for a minute, because shit's about to get real" confrontation.

I have a feeling that the fee will turn out to have more positives than negatives. Saying that a policy that hurts anyone is a bad policy is just plain senseless, and calling this fee "income-based segregation" is hysteria. One could argue that any fee for anything is "income-based segregation."

One thing is for sure: when something is free, it is not regarded as having innate worth, and it is more likely to be treated disrespectfully.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

To be completely honest, if $11 per year is a true hardship for someone who can afford to own, fuel, insure, and register a car, I don't care. There is no right in this world for everything to be free to you. People in this city already have an opportunity to have lots of free things given to them, including not but limited to food and shelter. Even Belle Isle is free to you; you'll just need to walk. I do think there should be regular bus service to the park.

Hey here's an idea: volunteer for a full day of manual labor on the island [[picking up garbage, mowing grass, cleaning buildings) and get an annual pass. Then the [[probably fictitious) people who can afford a car but not a permit can earn one.

[oladub]

Belle Isle was never free because Detroit taxpayers had to pay for it. Now, State taxpayers will be paying a much larger percentage of the taxes thereby freeing police and scarce Detroit taxpayer capital to improve conditions in the rest of the City. In addition, the Park will qualitatively improve. Having the aquarium running again and a children's playground built are examples. Does anyone know how many riders the average car brought to the Island in the past? If [[I'm guessing here) the average car carries 2.5 people and makes 4 trips per year, the $11 works out to $1.10/visit/person. How much will a cup of pop at an island concession stand cost in comparison?

Looking for someone to feel sorry for? Residents of the UP aren't going to benefit from their or their neighbor's tax money being diverted to Detroit.

[Crystal]

I used to check in with DetroitYES every morning but rarely do now because of the sniping and rudeness. Just once I'd like to read a thread that stays on topic and remains civil.

Complaining about the $11/year fee is insincere and is, as another poster described, invented outrage. Heck, it would cost at least a dollar or two in fuel just to drive to the park, even if there were no entry fee.

[corktownyuppie]

I used to check in with DetroitYES every morning but rarely do now because of the sniping and rudeness. Just once I'd like to read a thread that stays on topic and remains civil.

Complaining about the $11/year fee is insincere and is, as another poster described, invented outrage. Heck, it would cost at least a dollar or two in fuel just to drive to the park, even if there were no entry fee.

I agree that it's starting to jump the shark IMHO. It's still a step up from the freep comment section, but that's like asking someone to step over a broomstick lying on the floor.

Does anyone know if we are using the most effective means of moderation that would lead to the highest quality discourse?

[Bham1982]

Complaining about the $11/year fee is insincere and is, as another poster described, invented outrage. Heck, it would cost at least a dollar or two in fuel just to drive to the park, even if there were no entry fee.

This makes no sense. An $11 charge will influence potential park user behavior.

If I open a doughnut shop selling free doughnuts, and then change to a doughnut shop selling $11 doughnuts, you're telling me that won't have any effect on number of doughnuts sold? Just beacuse $11 won't put people in the poorhouse doesn't mean it won't influence customer behavior.

[Honky Tonk]

I used to check in with DetroitYES every morning but rarely do now because of the sniping and rudeness. Just once I'd like to read a thread that stays on topic and remains civil.

Complaining about the $11/year fee is insincere and is, as another poster described, invented outrage. Heck, it would cost at least a dollar or two in fuel just to drive to the park, even if there were no entry fee.

You have to consider the source. Some people are just hell bent on disruption without basis. If Ricky were giving away $11 to enter Belle Isle, the complaint would be it's discrimination, because the poor don't have the means to get there and collect it.

[Crystal]

I agree with Bham1982 that an $11 charge will influence potential park user behavior. And I wish it didn't have to be that way, especially for Detroiters who might not be able to afford the entry fee and whose park it is.

But the condition of Belle Isle was unacceptable. The soiled diapers, discarded chicken bones, other garbage, and broken toilets were enough to keep me away for several years. I attended the first meeting of the Belle Isle Advisory Committee and am excited about the future.

There are a zillion things I can't do because I can't afford it.

[jt1]

Having the aquarium running again and a children's playground built are examples.

Looking for someone to feel sorry for? Residents of the UP aren't going to benefit from their or their neighbor's tax money being diverted to Detroit.

The aquarium is currently opened, albeit shortened hours and there are children's playgrounds on the island. There is a very nice one with rubber matting underneath, that I have found is used often and maintained well.

Why should I shed a single tear for residents of the UP that have ample state owned parks, state owned roads and are a massive negative when it comes to taxes used and taxes paid. The UP is the posterchild for state welfare and you're going to bitch about Belle Isle?

Below are the State Parks in the UP. So forgive me if I'm not sympathetic to your precious tax dollars going to support BI:

Fayette Historic State Park
Fort Wilkins State Historic Park
Craig Lake State Park
Baraga State Park
Tahquamenon Falls State Park
Twin Lakes State Park
Van Riper State Park
Wagner Falls Scenic Site
J.W. Wells State Park
Indian Lake State Park
Indian Lake State Park [[West Unit)
Lake Gogebic State Park
Laughing Whitefish Falls Scenic Site
F. J. McLain State Park
Muskallonge Lake State Park
Palms Book State Park
Porcupine Mountains Wilderness State Park
Straits State Park
Bewabic State Park