Let's talk about how the roads around here are PISS POOR, and an embarassment.

[Danny]

Our roads like Mississippi or more like Mich-ississippi. It's politics that got into the way. Let's vote every old Michigan Legislature out of Lansing and elect new people. I can't stand looking at those potholes and look like Swiss cheese and tear up car tires.

[stasu1213]

Does that mean Woodward construction will cease until the fall? Does this mean that potholes will be filled with cheap asphalt that will dissolve when the next rainstorm comes. I had always said that there is someone or corporation behind this pulling all of the strings. Snyder and Senate are the puppets. It is a shame that this car dependent state has doesn't want to make these roads drivable for the cars that it's citizens rely on to travel to and fro

[DetroitPlanner]

I had always said that there is someone or corporation behind this pulling all of the strings.

You're right. General Motors and Ford have conspired to make travel by car horrendous and to have their axels break and tire blow out on trucks it needs to get parts to factories.

It has nothing to do with the legislature. How silly those like me feel for assuming this.

[DetroitPlanner]

Just heard another classic Coleman Young quote on WWJ, I paraphrase:

"If you think that we have a chance of getting these roads fixed, then you probably believe that Abraham Lincoln hunted vampires!"

The apple don't fall far from the tree. Way to go Junior, Loved it.

[stasu1213]

You're right. General Motors and Ford have conspired to make travel by car horrendous and to have their axels break and tire blow out on trucks it needs to get parts to factories.

It has nothing to do with the legislature. How silly those like me feel for assuming this.

Others entitles could lobby legislation to do almost anything those entities want them to do. The damaging of vehicles due to bad roads causing owners to take their cars to the dealer for repairs may not be a bad thought. I believe in conspiracies Planner. I was one of a very few who had said a few years back that construction on the light rail wasn't going to start then and I as well as others were right. I still believe that major road construction on Woodward will not start this summer for the lightrail. I would not be surprised if the who idea will be squashed all together for something else

[erikd]

Please. The sprawl people need to remove themselves from this thread. Your wet dream of people living in sardine cans like in Hong Kong is not helping us.

Nobody is saying that people need to live in tiny apartments in a cramped mega-city.

What we are pointing out is that the Metro Detroit population has been stagnant for over 40 years, but we have dramatically increased our amount of infrastructure and liabilities without any growth to pay for it.

Were we living in sardine cans in 1970 when the metro Detroit population was 4,307,403?

Of course not...

Now that we have dramatically increased the amount of roads, schools, streetlights, water and sewer lines, etc., while our population has fallen to 4,294,983, it is no surprise that our infrastructure is crumbling, and we are struggling to find a way to maintain it.

This has nothing to do with being anti-sprawl or pro-sprawl, it's just simple math.

Fewer people + more infrastructure = Higher taxes and/or crumbling infrastructure.

If my math or logic is incorrect, please point out my errors.

[That Great Guy]

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...ound-off-roads


Input equals Output

[Dan Wesson]

Money for Roads or Money for Detroit Bailout?

In the new monetary regime just print some more... Hell yes, I want it all.

I wish it was so for gasoline or food. Medical care or heat.

[stasu1213]

Vote Snyder and company out. Get rid of all elected officials who are responsible for these roads being so poor. Tell Gilbert to take a hike as concern to the M1 rail if he and Illitch are just sitting on the project while Woodward quickly crumble into a country avenue on a safari in Africa.

[brizee]

This state sucks so much.

[Wesley Mouch]

Nobody is saying that people need to live in tiny apartments in a cramped mega-city.

What we are pointing out is that the Metro Detroit population has been stagnant for over 40 years, but we have dramatically increased our amount of infrastructure and liabilities without any growth to pay for it.

Were we living in sardine cans in 1970 when the metro Detroit population was 4,307,403?

Of course not...

Now that we have dramatically increased the amount of roads, schools, streetlights, water and sewer lines, etc., while our population has fallen to 4,294,983, it is no surprise that our infrastructure is crumbling, and we are struggling to find a way to maintain it.

This has nothing to do with being anti-sprawl or pro-sprawl, it's just simple math.

Fewer people + more infrastructure = Higher taxes and/or crumbling infrastructure.

If my math or logic is incorrect, please point out my errors.

Nothing wrong with your math at the broadest level -- but its overly simplistic.

One major factor you've ignored is the age of the infrastructure. By building new suburbs, we've added new infrastructure that has a lot of useful life. Detroit's infrastructure has been undermaintained. Thus, the most efficient thing to do is let Detroit rot, and maintain what we have in the suburbs.

We do have serious problems with infrastructure -- but I don't see that we're much worse than any other metro overall. We all stink.

Another major factor you've ignored is debt. You can have better infrastructure if you take on debt rather than increase taxes. Thus, you can pay for your current infrastructure needs as long as your income supports your 'mortgage'.

I think we can responsibly maintain the current used infrastructure as well as any other metro with our current tax base. Whether we can rebuild Detroit's infrastructure that deteriorated because Detroit squandered it is a different question. If you're a suburban or outstate voter, you probably have a different view than the residents of Detroit whose tax money and jobs were destroyed by irresponsible management.

[night-timer]

I was told by Planner that the State is responsible for Woodward. Woodward is in the poorest condition it ever been in since the first concrete was laid on it more than 100 years ago. Repaving was done on Woodward between Boston Edison and Highland Park border. The project was halted after never to go south of Grand Blvd. The lame excuse is that work on Woodward will proceed once tracks are being laid for the lightrail. Tthat might take forever. Snyder has the nerve to boast about a surplus while he wasted thousands on a stupid superbowl commercial.. Just repave Woodward saving tje far right lane. That lane and sidewalk would be reconstructed for the light rail. Go figure

I only rides bikes, so I know what a bumpy ride is. I agree that Woodward south of Grand Blvd is bad. Pot-holes on a bike are a disaster waiting to happen. Even Michigan Avenue near the old Tigers stadium [[heading up to Corktown) is bad in parts. There is in fact quite a bit of roadwork being done on Woodward. I see signs of progress, but it will take time. Looking at its condition, Woodward has plainly carried a big traffic burden over the years! It's a crucial thoroughfare for the city of Detroit.

[313WX]

FWIW, since someone has bumped this thread, MDOT has finally gotten around to adding "temporary" LED lights along I-94 west of Conner to I-75.

[ghettopalmetto]

Nothing wrong with your math at the broadest level -- but its overly simplistic.

One major factor you've ignored is the age of the infrastructure. By building new suburbs, we've added new infrastructure that has a lot of useful life. Detroit's infrastructure has been undermaintained. Thus, the most efficient thing to do is let Detroit rot, and maintain what we have in the suburbs.

We do have serious problems with infrastructure -- but I don't see that we're much worse than any other metro overall. We all stink.

Another major factor you've ignored is debt. You can have better infrastructure if you take on debt rather than increase taxes. Thus, you can pay for your current infrastructure needs as long as your income supports your 'mortgage'.

I think we can responsibly maintain the current used infrastructure as well as any other metro with our current tax base. Whether we can rebuild Detroit's infrastructure that deteriorated because Detroit squandered it is a different question. If you're a suburban or outstate voter, you probably have a different view than the residents of Detroit whose tax money and jobs were destroyed by irresponsible management.

This just makes my head explode. It's categorically insane.

Why maintain the infrastructure in your cozy Wonder Bread suburb? I mean, you let it go to hell, just like Detroit did before you. Eff you, let's pave Lapeer County instead. At least new roads in Lapeer County will have "plenty of useful life".

[brizee]

Well that's something.

I guess.

[lpg]

Until the money is diverted to other non-road issues.

[Gpwrangler]

This just makes my head explode. It's categorically insane.

Why maintain the infrastructure in your cozy Wonder Bread suburb? I mean, you let it go to hell, just like Detroit did before you. Eff you, let's pave Lapeer County instead. At least new roads in Lapeer County will have "plenty of useful life".

Try putting in a bike lane up there and see what happens.

[ABetterDetroit]

Well that's something.

I guess.

Huh? Republicans and democrats both support a solution that even the Mayor of Detroit and the Governor are on board with? Only tea baggers stand in the way? Did I just wake up in some world where common sense is used in government?

[Don K]

Generally, the reason we have crappy roads isn't politics - it's the weather. The amount of snow and ice we get, coupled with the freeze-thaw cycle, creates pockets of water underneath the pavement that undermine the road and create potholes and un-even-ness. And we can't permanently fix anything until the temperature is consistently above freezing.

Of course it's politics. We're not the only state with winter weather, you know.That's an excuse MDOT has been using ever since I moved here in 78. The problem is a bunch of pols in Lansing who are terrified of/ideologically opposed to adding a dime to the gas tax to get more money for the roads. Listen up, folks, you're not saving money if you save $60/year in gas tax but get a bent rim, ruined tire, or broken suspension bits in return.

[Don K]

Thus, the most efficient thing to do is let Detroit rot, and maintain what we have in the suburbs.

Except the roads in the burbs aren't being maintained. Take a ride on Maple Rd W of
Franklin sometime. You have the new pavement at the roundabouts in West Bloomfield, but apart from that the road is a horror. Or really any of the N-S roads in Bloomfield/W Bloomfield. And the aforementioned Greenfield north of 8 mile is on the Southfield/Oak Park border, not in Detroit. These roads are all the responsibility of RCOC. Now granted RCOC put a new layer of asphalt on Walnut Lake from Franklin past Farmington this year, so that's my route to get to W Bloomfield/Commerce now [[less traffic and better road than Maple).

[ABetterDetroit]

Of course it's politics. We're not the only state with winter weather, you know.That's an excuse MDOT has been using ever since I moved here in 78. The problem is a bunch of pols in Lansing who are terrified of/ideologically opposed to adding a dime to the gas tax to get more money for the roads. Listen up, folks, you're not saving money if you save $60/year in gas tax but get a bent rim, ruined tire, or broken suspension bits in return.

Here, here if you don't believe it take a drive in Wisconsin. It's night and day difference in pavement quality not so much in weather.

[Wesley Mouch]

Of course it's politics. We're not the only state with winter weather, you know.That's an excuse MDOT has been using ever since I moved here in 78. The problem is a bunch of pols in Lansing who are terrified of/ideologically opposed to adding a dime to the gas tax to get more money for the roads. Listen up, folks, you're not saving money if you save $60/year in gas tax but get a bent rim, ruined tire, or broken suspension bits in return.

Apparently, their terror subsided and turned them into Democrats.

[bailey]

Apparently, their terror subsided and turned them into Democrats.

or they knew that in order to have things like decent roads, we need to have some revenue to pay for them... and they knew they'd need to lie to their base about where and how that revenue would be generated because their crazy far right nutjob base can't seem to fathom how society and public infrastructure works.

Not exactly a profile in courage by Rs but at least they've decided to govern [[even if they have to lie to their voters for their own good).

[Hypestyles]

... abolish midterms nationwide.. make the legislature part time. They sure don't vote full time.

[erikd]

Nothing wrong with your math at the broadest level -- but its overly simplistic.

One major factor you've ignored is the age of the infrastructure. By building new suburbs, we've added new infrastructure that has a lot of useful life. Detroit's infrastructure has been undermaintained. Thus, the most efficient thing to do is let Detroit rot, and maintain what we have in the suburbs.

We do have serious problems with infrastructure -- but I don't see that we're much worse than any other metro overall. We all stink.

Another major factor you've ignored is debt. You can have better infrastructure if you take on debt rather than increase taxes. Thus, you can pay for your current infrastructure needs as long as your income supports your 'mortgage'.

I think we can responsibly maintain the current used infrastructure as well as any other metro with our current tax base. Whether we can rebuild Detroit's infrastructure that deteriorated because Detroit squandered it is a different question. If you're a suburban or outstate voter, you probably have a different view than the residents of Detroit whose tax money and jobs were destroyed by irresponsible management.

There are so many things wrong with your assertions...

"One major factor you've ignored is the age of the infrastructure. By building new suburbs, we've added new infrastructure that has a lot of useful life. Detroit's infrastructure has been undermaintained. Thus, the most efficient thing to do is let Detroit rot, and maintain what we have in the suburbs."

Detroit's infrastructure has been under maintained BECAUSE the Metro Detroit/Michigan/Federal governments chose to use infrastructure funding for expansion INSTEAD of maintenance. Diverting maintenance funding for expansion projects might work in a growth period, but it is a devastating misallocation of resources if there is no growth, which has been the case in Metro Detroit for the last 45 years.

"We do have serious problems with infrastructure -- but I don't see that we're much worse than any other metro overall. We all stink."

This is the point that I was making in my last response to you. The point that you seem to be missing is that the infrastructure problem is the result of a massive expansion of infrastructure, without a corresponding increase in population and economic growth that is required to pay for it.

"Another major factor you've ignored is debt. You can have better infrastructure if you take on debt rather than increase taxes. Thus, you can pay for your current infrastructure needs as long as your income supports your 'mortgage'."

This assertion is a perfect example of the dangerous and misguided mindset that has led to most of these problems. The practice of taking on ever-increasing amounts of debt as a source of funding, instead of funding based on legitimate and sustainable returns on investment, is destroying not only Detroit, but our nation as a whole.

Taking on debt rather than increasing taxes [[aka actually paying for it) "as long as your income supports your mortgage" is exactly what led to the housing/mortgage crisis in 2008. The Enron collapse was the product of the same concept. Millions of Americans employ this same strategy when they use one credit card to make payments on another. Almost every level of government in America has been doing this for decades.

We have a term for the practice of taking on debt just to make the payments on other debt, without any realistic plan to ever pay it off. It's called a Ponzi scheme.

http://grist.org/sprawl/2011-06-22-t...-ponzi-scheme/