Let's talk about how the roads around here are PISS POOR, and an embarassment.

[Hermod]

You do have to wonder though.
The south end of Oakland and Macomb Counties was a massive swamp back in the old days which was drained and filled in. Are the roads worse in the parts of those counties south of, say, 14 Mile?
That would account for the severe frost heave damage on those roads.

[noise]

No doubt I-75 is in much better shape in Ohio. However, get off some of the main roads, and you will see the same sort of issues you see in Michigan. Secondary routes show overloading due to traffic, poor drainage, or other issues.

A couple of years ago, we took the back way to Cedar Point. You would be hard-pressed to see any difference in the quality of roads between the two states.

Certainly not a random sample, but Ohio's roads aren't always 'paved in gold'.

I live in Ohio. The roads, across the board, are way better than Michigan's.

[DetroitPlanner]

I live in Ohio. The roads, across the board, are way better than Michigan's.

That is nothing to boast about. Kind of like saying you can kick a baby's @$$ in a fist-fight.

[noise]

That is nothing to boast about. Kind of like saying you can kick a baby's @$$ in a fist-fight.

I agree, which is why I wasn't boasting. I was countering an uninformed statement and addressing the fact that Michigan is failing in this area.

Nice try, I guess.

[DetroitPlanner]

I agree, which is why I wasn't boasting. I was countering an uninformed statement and addressing the fact that Michigan is failing in this area.

Nice try, I guess.

I do see a difference between ODOT roads and local roads in Ohio. In Toldeo ODOT has spent billions on widening/upgrading the Glass City Skyway and turning US-24 into a freeway. Yes some of the interchanges are still 1950's style on the older freeways and you do see freeway overpass bridges with plywood keeping chunks from falling onto the pavement below. There is a lot of disparity in Ohio.

[Honky Tonk]

I do see a difference between ODOT roads and local roads in Ohio. In Toldeo ODOT has spent billions on widening/upgrading the Glass City Skyway and turning US-24 into a freeway. Yes some of the interchanges are still 1950's style on the older freeways and you do see freeway overpass bridges with plywood keeping chunks from falling onto the pavement below. There is a lot of disparity in Ohio.

OH is part of this "Rustbelt" thing too, and is also going through some hard times, like MI. However, I don't think OH's tax base is as depleted as MI's, though.

[RO_Resident]

I agree, which is why I wasn't boasting. I was countering an uninformed statement and addressing the fact that Michigan is failing in this area.

Nice try, I guess.

ASCE crunches national numbers every year. Based on HPMS data, they find that--

• 38% of Michigan’s roads are in poor or mediocre condition.
• 42% of Ohio’s roads are in poor or mediocre condition.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

This thread needs to be renamed. I couldn't find one mention of the piss puddles that plague our roads in this area. DaveWindsor would be ashamed of all of you.

Well...the absolute worst road I travelled on recently is Greenfield between 8 and 9 Mile Rd. Stay off this road if at all possible. It has potholes as big as the Grand Canyon.

[Honky Tonk]

Well...the absolute worst road I travelled on recently is Greenfield between 8 and 9 Mile Rd. Stay off this road if at all possible. It has potholes as big as the Grand Canyon.

Hmmmmmmmmmm.........

[noise]

ASCE crunches national numbers every year. Based on HPMS data, they find that--

• 38% of Michigan’s roads are in poor or mediocre condition.
• 42% of Ohio’s roads are in poor or mediocre condition.

And you led your argument with a trip to Cedar Point a few years ago?

This is all well and good, but I think you'll be hard pressed to find an overwhelming number of people who have experience with both states agreeing with you. If that means 35% of Michigan's roads are poor and 40% of Ohio's are just mediocre, I'll still take Ohio.

Perhaps unrelated, does anyone know of an unpaved road in Ohio?

[noise]

ASCE crunches national numbers every year. Based on HPMS data, they find that--

• 38% of Michigan’s roads are in poor or mediocre condition.
• 42% of Ohio’s roads are in poor or mediocre condition.

Interestingly, you left out the more interesting parts of that report.

Michigan

Driving on roads in need of repair costs Michigan motorists $2.534 billion a year in extra vehicle repairs and operating costs – $357 per motorist.

38% of Michigan’s roads are in poor or mediocre condition.

Michigan has 121,650 public road miles.

Michigan’s highway vehicle-miles traveled in 2009 was approximately 9,878 per capita, ranking it 31st in the nation.

Michigan’s gas tax of 38.7 cents per gallon has not been increased in 1 year.

Ohio

Driving on roads in need of repair costs Ohio motorists $1.685 million a year in extra vehicle repairs and operating costs – $212 per motorist.

42% of Ohio’s roads are in poor or mediocre condition.

Ohio has 122,973 public road miles.

Ohio’s highway vehicle-miles traveled in 2009 was approximately 9,693 per capita, ranking it 33th in the nation.

Ohio’s gas tax of 28 cents per gallon has not been increased in 7 years.

[Wesley Mouch]

I do see a difference between ODOT roads and local roads in Ohio. In Toldeo ODOT has spent billions on widening/upgrading the Glass City Skyway and turning US-24 into a freeway. Yes some of the interchanges are still 1950's style on the older freeways and you do see freeway overpass bridges with plywood keeping chunks from falling onto the pavement below. There is a lot of disparity in Ohio.

MDOT does seem to be obsessed with spending money to remove these anachronisms, like the I94/Ford Road interchange. I loved that old interchange. They replaced a perfectly nice 'merge' with a 'T' intersection. Sure, I understand the idea -- but it hardly seems like it was worth the expense. And there went some great history.

[Honky Tonk]

Michigan’s gas tax of 38.7 cents per gallon has not been increased in 1 year.

Ohio

Ohio’s gas tax of 28 cents per gallon has not been increased in 7 years.

Sounds like a management problem.

[RO_Resident]

And you led your argument with a trip to Cedar Point a few years ago?

This is all well and good, but I think you'll be hard pressed to find an overwhelming number of people who have experience with both states agreeing with you. If that means 35% of Michigan's roads are poor and 40% of Ohio's are just mediocre, I'll still take Ohio.

Perhaps unrelated, does anyone know of an unpaved road in Ohio?

No, it started when I would go down to Monroe County to some pavement condition assessment. [[I guess the cat is out of the bag, I do pavement management as part of my day job.) When working in southern Monroe County, we will often go to Toledo or Lucas County for lunch.

When we would cross over the Ohio border, we would continue to perform the same ratings. Obviously, the ratings were informal, qualitative assessments. Wash, rinse, repeat over the course of a decade or so. It was hard to see a difference in the ratings on a lot of the surface streets between the two states.

A couple of years ago, I took the family to Cedar Point. Instead of taking the freeway and toll road, we went the back way.

Again, qualitatively, I saw the same sorts of problems on Ohio's roads--evidence of poor drainage, overloading, wheel-path cracking, and other defects. I also saw that Ohio was using chip seal more often than Michigan does.

Like I said, I know the Ohio sample [[either in Toledo/Lucas County or the trip to Cedar Point) is not random, and not likely to be representative of the whole state. However, it was enough of a sample to see that the roads deteriorate in a similar way to Michigan's roads.

[noise]

I agree, but my anecdotal assessment which has not been disproved, is that Ohio seems to do better with their roads than Michigan does.

Speaking of Monroe County, how about I-75 in that stretch! Yikes!

[DetroitPlanner]

And you led your argument with a trip to Cedar Point a few years ago?

This is all well and good, but I think you'll be hard pressed to find an overwhelming number of people who have experience with both states agreeing with you. If that means 35% of Michigan's roads are poor and 40% of Ohio's are just mediocre, I'll still take Ohio.

Perhaps unrelated, does anyone know of an unpaved road in Ohio?

It could be that RO_Res did not stick to HWY 2 only to get to Cedar Point. There could also be a difference in the methodology used to conclude the # of roads under bad or poor condition.

[noise]

It could be that RO_Res did not stick to HWY 2 only to get to Cedar Point. There could also be a difference in the methodology used to conclude the # of roads under bad or poor condition.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

[DetroitPlanner]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

There is not national standard in how to grade roads. MAP-21 [[the current federal transportation authorization has a goal to put one together, but it is years from being completed. Chances are the report is a compilation of data from different sources.

Here is something from that report I know is wrong as Michigan's tax is 19 cents since 1996 and the Fed tax is 18.7 cents since before then' I have no idea where this extra penny comes from. It may also be that they are assuming $4+ per gallon plus the general sales tax. Ohio they do not include the Federal Tax:

• Michigan’s gas tax of 38.7 cents per gallon has not been increased in 1 year.
• Michigan has 99,281 annual unlinked passenger trips via transit systems – motor bus, heavy rail, light rail, and commuter rail.

[noise]

There is not national standard in how to grade roads. MAP-21 [[the current federal transportation authorization has a goal to put one together, but it is years from being completed. Chances are the report is a compilation of data from different sources.

Here is something from that report I know is wrong as Michigan's tax is 19 cents since 1996 and the Fed tax is 18.7 cents since before then' I have no idea where this extra penny comes from. It may also be that they are assuming $4+ per gallon plus the general sales tax. Ohio they do not include the Federal Tax:

• Michigan’s gas tax of 38.7 cents per gallon has not been increased in 1 year.
• Michigan has 99,281 annual unlinked passenger trips via transit systems – motor bus, heavy rail, light rail, and commuter rail.

Ok. RO_Res cited the report, but I don't think either of us were considering it gospel.

[Jimaz]

What is needed is some kind of self-sealing paving material. Does such a paving material even exist? Google doesn't find anything recent.

Back before computers, when people used drafting tables and compasses, they'd cover the table with some kind of plastic that would self-seal the punctures from the compass point. Of course you couldn't drive on that plastic but that's the kind of technology needed here.

[DetroitPlanner]

What is needed is some kind of self-sealing paving material. Does such a paving material even exist? Google doesn't find anything recent.

Back before computers, when people used drafting tables and compasses, they'd cover the table with some kind of plastic that would self-seal the punctures from the compass point. Of course you couldn't drive on that plastic but that's the kind of technology needed here.

I remember those days! Only a road is not a desk. Desks are not subject to the same wear and tear a road is, or salt, or extreme weather. It would be nice though. I have seem some nice applications out there, but again, those cost a huge amount of money as they are very labor and material intensive [[Europave, expanding pervious brick, carbon-fibre, etc). I have seen some crazy ideas come and go over the years like using glass!

Since no one in this thread wants to talk about funding. I guess those are out.

[Honky Tonk]

What is needed is some kind of self-sealing paving material. Does such a paving material even exist? Google doesn't find anything recent.

Back before computers, when people used drafting tables and compasses, they'd cover the table with some kind of plastic that would self-seal the punctures from the compass point. Of course you couldn't drive on that plastic but that's the kind of technology needed here.

Not a bad idea. It would probably end up costing less then what it's costing now.

http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/...A&gclsrc=aw.ds

[TKshreve]

DetroitPlanner -

Question for you. I have always deliberated over the question of economical vs. quality when considering road work. I could rant and rave about the productivity levels of these companies that seem to win bids on this work [[like leaving barrels up for six months without one lick of work being completed), but we can bitch about that another time:

So take for instance the junction of I696 + I 94. They replaced this roughly three years ago I think. They spent a good deal of time on it, put an extra deep pour into it and the quality is superb. It was much needed, and it seems to be holding quite well. I undoubtedly agree that great workmanship and funding should go into these connecting spots as they are subject to all sorts of intangibles regarding depreciation.

However, if we are looking at the raw straightaways and the everyday entrances/exits to these freeways, it seems the status quo is to slap down a coat of asphalt and revisit in 4-5 years.

Could you shed some light into the thought process of the state and their vendors regarding the quality vs. economical thought process.

Are we talking about simple job-security for companies like Posen and such, or is this really in effect the best way to go about managing our roads.

Construction is an every season thing, and it's F#$%^&* an absolute headache. Why couldn't they do a thorough job once every 15-20 years and take the higher ticket today, opposed to coming back year after year, and making everybody's commute that much more annoying.

[softailrider]

Oakland County has jurisdiction over Greenfield from 8 Mile to 10 Mile.

Meijer Drive from Coolidge to Delemere is so bad cars and buses are lucky to go 15 mph down the road. A lot of cars were going down the center turn lane. It is that bad.

The Meijer parking lot in Royal Oak has frost heave of ~2 to 3 inches. Once the weather breaks, the lot will become an instant gravel surface. They are looking at a huge bill to repave that portion of the lot.

I don't feel too bad for them, they can afford to repair their lot.

[RO_Resident]

DetroitPlanner -

Question for you. I have always deliberated over the question of economical vs. quality when considering road work. I could rant and rave about the productivity levels of these companies that seem to win bids on this work [[like leaving barrels up for six months without one lick of work being completed), but we can bitch about that another time:

So take for instance the junction of I696 + I 94. They replaced this roughly three years ago I think. They spent a good deal of time on it, put an extra deep pour into it and the quality is superb. It was much needed, and it seems to be holding quite well. I undoubtedly agree that great workmanship and funding should go into these connecting spots as they are subject to all sorts of intangibles regarding depreciation.

However, if we are looking at the raw straightaways and the everyday entrances/exits to these freeways, it seems the status quo is to slap down a coat of asphalt and revisit in 4-5 years.

Could you shed some light into the thought process of the state and their vendors regarding the quality vs. economical thought process.

Are we talking about simple job-security for companies like Posen and such, or is this really in effect the best way to go about managing our roads.

Construction is an every season thing, and it's F#$%^&* an absolute headache. Why couldn't they do a thorough job once every 15-20 years and take the higher ticket today, opposed to coming back year after year, and making everybody's commute that much more annoying.

What MDOT is trying to do is to extend the time when the only economical fix is rehabilitation or reconstruction. Both of those fixes cost on the order of $500k to $1,500k [[or more) per lane mile of road to fix. In asset management-speak, the time to where the only economical fix is and expensive fix is the remaining service life.

As mentioned above water is enemy of good roads. You want to maintain good drainage and keep the waterproof surface intact.

Early on in the road's life, you want to seal any crack. If you let water infiltrate the surface into the base, you reduce the life of the pavement. So, crack sealing will increase the remaining service life for a couple, maybe few years.

Next, as the road ages shows signs of wear, but the base is relatively intact, an economical fix is a thin asphalt overlay. Those are the overlays that seem to last on the order of 5 or so years. Since the fixes are relatively cheap, they actually 'pay' for themselves over the course of the 5 years.

So, let's say a road has a design life of 25 years. The remaining service life is 25 years.

If you do a crack seal in years 2 and 4, you may add 4 years to the life of the pavement.

In years 15 and 20 you do some overlays. Each of the overlays adds 5 years to the remaining service life.

So, you may have spent an additional $100k per lane mile over the initial life of the pavement. However, you gained an additional 14 years of service life of the road. You have pushed the more expensive fixes to, say, year 39 or 40.

That's why it makes economic sense to do fixes that [[on first blush) don't seem to last very long. But, in the big picture, are actually saving you a lot of money in the long run.