Let's talk about how the roads around here are PISS POOR, and an embarassment.

[DetroitPlanner]

We do not have the money to do preventive maintenance as the transportation system is underfunded. This leads to roads and buses turning to crap. Once they turn to crap then it costs a ton to fix as opposed to say doing crack seal on a road every couple of years on roadways or regular oil changes on buses. Politicos all want the worst roads fixed first leaving little to no money to maintain the halfway decent ones. This table explains what I mean: http://techtransfer.berkeley.edu/new...-4/prevent.php

[jt1]

We do not have the money to do preventive maintenance as the transportation system is underfunded. This leads to roads and buses turning to crap. Once they turn to crap then it costs a ton to fix as opposed to say doing crack seal on a road every couple of years on roadways or regular oil changes on buses. Politicos all want the worst roads fixed first leaving little to no money to maintain the halfway decent ones. This table explains what I mean: http://techtransfer.berkeley.edu/new...-4/prevent.php

As long as it is done blindly with no consideration for the residents then it's all good. I've looked at the lists of work planned by MDOT. There appears to be a lot of pointless expansion.

[rb336]

Let's look at other luxuries that should be cut:

Mortgage interest deduction
Capital gains tax significantly below taxes on other earnings
Tax credits for energy efficient improvements/historic improvements on homes


I wonder if DB for life also sees these as luxuries?

GP for life is a typically ignorant ___________.

[Khorasaurus]

Construction has not started. The contracts haven't even been awarded. The only work that is taking place is relocation of underground utilities. Everyone wants to make it seem as if tracks are being layed, station foundations are being built and overhead power lines are being strung, none of that is taking place.

That sounds like construction to me. Obviously, it's very early stages. That's why it's not going to be done until 2016.

And they awarded the construction contracts last summer....

http://www.progressiverailroading.co...ruction--37044

Anyway, the point is Woodward is going to be reconstructed in the next couple years. It's been a long time coming [[too long).

[rb336]

The biggest issue isn't the salt, the maintenance or the freeze-thaw cycle. The biggest issue is a lack of willingness by Lansing and Michiganders to pay for the roads to be constructed properly in the first place

[Hermod]

The biggest issue isn't the salt, the maintenance or the freeze-thaw cycle. The biggest issue is a lack of willingness by Lansing and Michiganders to pay for the roads to be constructed properly in the first place

Nothing new here. Mound Road has traditionally been a potholed mess back into the 50s. Macomb County used to have the worst reputation. On the east-west roads, you knew when Oakland County ended and macomb County began by the roads.

[Hermod]

Edit: Another thing I had suggested before is sending prisoners out on the roads with wheelbarrows full of cold patch. Similar idea.

Hey, GP For Life's chain gang can build
DetroitNerds light rail system.

Attachment 22676

[Wesley Mouch]

We do not have the money to do preventive maintenance as the transportation system is underfunded. This leads to roads and buses turning to crap. Once they turn to crap then it costs a ton to fix as opposed to say doing crack seal on a road every couple of years on roadways or regular oil changes on buses. Politicos all want the worst roads fixed first leaving little to no money to maintain the halfway decent ones. This table explains what I mean: http://techtransfer.berkeley.edu/new...-4/prevent.php

Or maybe we are not spending our money wisely.

I really don't know which. It could be a combination of both.

Does anyone have real statistics on a state like Wisconsin and their road budget vs. Michigan on expenditure per mile?

Otherwise to say that we're 'underfunded' is only speculation. I can thus speculate that there is massive waste in government. Like six-digit pensions for legislators who worked just a few years.

[Kevgoblue]

I don't care if someone has to use the welfare system. I care if someone has to depend on the system for their life. Obviously, excluding those who are disabled and the like.

I'd just like to see chain gangs working on the roads before I pay one-cent more in gas taxes. Is that so wrong?

Cool.
We can get the poor welfare recipients to shovel cold patch in exchange for their government subsidies. Of course then they'll never have time to seek gainful employment. But if they want their kids to eat, they'll be back tomorrow.
Road work for the cost of food stamps. A conservative's wet dream.

Hmmm....Ilitch just picked up a crapload of city owned properties for $1. Cuz it's supposed to be beneficial to the city and its rebirth. Wonder if the cold patch shovelers would be eligible for the same deal.

Jesus. Why do the privilidged love to shit on the poor so much?

[GP For Life]

Let's look at other luxuries that should be cut:

Mortgage interest deduction
Capital gains tax significantly below taxes on other earnings
Tax credits for energy efficient improvements/historic improvements on homes


I wonder if DB for life also sees these as luxuries?

I am all for a tax system that is both fair and simple, so yeah, I don't like those. Basically, I am for a much flatter tax curve. Not a true flat tax, but I am not really for loopholes.

I don't like consumption-based taxes because they're naturally regressive.

[GP For Life]

Cool.
We can get the poor welfare recipients to shovel cold patch in exchange for their government subsidies. Of course then they'll never have time to seek gainful employment. But if they want their kids to eat, they'll be back tomorrow.
Road work for the cost of food stamps. A conservative's wet dream.

Hmmm....Ilitch just picked up a crapload of city owned properties for $1. Cuz it's supposed to be beneficial to the city and its rebirth. Wonder if the cold patch shovelers would be eligible for the same deal.

Jesus. Why do the privilidged love to shit on the poor so much?

If you read my earlier comment, it would start off as a day or two a week and the longer they remain on public assistance the more time they would have to serve. This way, in times of extreme hardship it would be more like the WPA, but in normal times it would allow people to find other and more beneficial work. We paid people to plant forests, why not pay people to fix roads?

Having people work in jobs below their abilities is a recipe for poor economic growth, thus, we want people to find jobs that fit their abilities better. It's just better for everybody.

I don't see why this sounds so crazy to you people.

[DetroitPlanner]

Or maybe we are not spending our money wisely.

I really don't know which. It could be a combination of both.

Does anyone have real statistics on a state like Wisconsin and their road budget vs. Michigan on expenditure per mile?

Otherwise to say that we're 'underfunded' is only speculation. I can thus speculate that there is massive waste in government. Like six-digit pensions for legislators who worked just a few years.

I posted a link earlier on this thread that shows gas taxes per state. If you notice Michigan has the lowest in the great lakes except for Indiana. Indiana has toll roads as well as less freeze thaw problems as the southern parts of it are pretty much Kentucky. Other states in the region also allow local sales taxes which are used to funnel into roads and transit. Michigan's constitution forbids this.

We can't spend our money wisely because there is only enough to fix the worst of the roads. Spending it wisely would allow roads to last several years longer between major repairs. But we can't do that without because the bad roads are so horrible.

I know it sounds like circular logic, and that is part of the problem. MDOT, County Road agencies, Cities and Villages all have about half the staff they had 15 years ago. This is due to not having the revenues to fix the roads they were once able to. Deferred maintenance for 15-20 years is no way to keep roads or transit in good shape.

[TKshreve]

If you read my earlier comment, it would start off as a day or two a week and the longer they remain on public assistance the more time they would have to serve. This way, in times of extreme hardship it would be more like the WPA, but in normal times it would allow people to find other and more beneficial work. We paid people to plant forests, why not pay people to fix roads?

Amazing, here we have a region that is rusting away at the seams, in a sense of infrastructure and stability alike. And to suggest that we harness the burgeoning population of unemployed, underemployed and those stuck on gov't assistance; that it is met with calls of repression and cries of ignorance..... it is well outside my ability to comprehend.

Not enough police officers to meet demand, trash rolls through our streets like tumbleweed, our roads continue to crumble every season, condemned and/or burnt out structures continue to persist...... yet we cannot mobilize a workforce to address these issues?

GP, your reference to the WPA is spot on. Further, it could be intertwined with an incremental training program in order to give life to a skilled workforce, instead of the vacuum that now exists. Empower those who currently have no options, or missed the boat. I also agree with you that there would be variances for those unable to participate like the disabled and elderly. But the trend needs to start reversing itself. This race to the bottom will not have a pleasant outcome if we keep enabling people to not participate in our economy.

[ABetterDetroit]

I don't like consumption-based taxes because they're naturally regressive.

Okay let's play your game!

A graduated income tax is what you really prefer.

And if the shit really hits the fan a good old property tax is your back up.

Or you can always find what you really need between the couch cushions.!!!

It's a dime a gallon on gas or diesel no exceptions no get out of jail free card, farms and boats or the off road toys still use the roads. Ain't life a bitch pay your F-ing dime, nothing to see here folks move on....

[Cliffy]

Here's what gets me. We've paid for years and years for roads and the roads have always been crappy because the money has been diverted for other things, or just not budgeted correctly. Now, peoples' solution is "just give us more money, then we'll fix your roads".

Well, I don't buy that. How about we reallocate resources from luxuries [[like welfare programs) to pay for our roads?

How about we take care of two problems at once?

Everyone thinks the answer is just spend more money. F-that.

Great and its people like you who live in some fantasy world where you don't want to spend shit and get shiny new roads. Just add .25 per gallon of gas and be done with it.

[RO_Resident]

I would like to call at least a small amount of BS on that. Hamtramck urged the county for YEARS to repave Conant, which is a county road. They finally did it ... and stopped right at Hamtramck City Limits. That's right, they resurface the road and totally ignored the sections of road within the dense urban area. I mean, WTF?

Conant is owned by Detroit outside of Hamtramck. It's up to Detroit to fix the other portions of the road.

[rb336]

I don't like consumption-based taxes because they're naturally regressive.

That depends on the way they are structured. Gas taxes are based on how much you use. A guy with a BMW M is using a lot more than a guy in a Focus. If the guy has all the toys - powerboat, snow mobiles, jet skis, etc., he pays that much more. That reduces the regressive nature of it. Likewise a tobacco taxes on cigar and pipe tobacco should be higher than cigarettes. I don't know how alcohol is taxed.

[TMR]

I bet part of the freeze-thaw problem is mostly because of bad underlandment under road.If it was planned and implemented properly the problem would most likely be lessened greatly.Look at the real bad roads and you'll see those are ones that have been neglected or over patched.Hense water can get underneath between underlandment and road.Correct me if I'm wrong.

[DetroitPlanner]

I bet part of the freeze-thaw problem is mostly because of bad underlandment under road.If it was planned and implemented properly the problem would most likely be lessened greatly.Look at the real bad roads and you'll see those are ones that have been neglected or over patched.Hense water can get underneath between underlandment and road.Correct me if I'm wrong.

Underlandment?
Potholes are caused by water getting into and under the pavement, freezing, then expanding. Keep water out and the pavement lasts longer. This is why preventive maintenance is such a big deal. Crack-sealing or micro-resurfacing helps fill in the cracks that let in the water.

[Roq]

Greenfield north of 8 Mile. Holy shit. Literally. Cedar Point has rides less bumpy than what I endured last night. I don't think you could go 10 feet head on or to the side without hitting a giant suspension ruining, tire busting hole. I'm pretty sure I saw a piece of wire frame sticking up out of one particular hole.

Jesus, you aren't kidding. I have to believe Beirut has better roads than this stretch of Greenfield.

I don't buy the freeze/thaw argument either; you can go to any bordering state or Canada and the minute you get out of Michigan, a vast improvement to the road surface is noticeable.

MDOT is incompetence personified and the allowing of huge tractor trailers is another factor in the crumbling roads of MI.

What is going to be done about it? Based on the track record for fixing roads around here and the people in charge, I'm going to say...not much.

[DetroitPlanner]

MDOT is incompetence personified

The vast majority of the roads in Michigan are not owned or managed by MDOT. For example Greenfield is a County road.

Freeze thaw is the outcome not the problem. The issue is funding.

[Dan Wesson]

I bet part of the freeze-thaw problem is mostly because of bad underlandment under road.If it was planned and implemented properly the problem would most likely be lessened greatly.Look at the real bad roads and you'll see those are ones that have been neglected or over patched.Hense water can get underneath between underlandment and road.Correct me if I'm wrong.

If underlandment is a legitimate term in paving I am in agreement.

There is a complex I'm in a lot that has acres of parking lot. It was built in a rush. The asphalt is heaving like I have not seen before. There are sections one after the other that you must hang on tight or you will lose control of the car. It has the appearance of ocean swells and feels like it.

It's been so cold that the salt has not liquified the ice and snow. It has made a greasy slush.

[finster]

It absolutely does not need to be expanded. There was a third option on the table with MDOT: Do nothing but required maintenance. You're also engaging in a little rhetorical sleight of hand here, calling it a reconstruction. If you were to take my house and turn it into the Taj Fucking Mahal, I bet that would be a reconstruction too, huh?

Anyway, take it outside. You don't have to pop in and stick up for the poor underserved freeway interests every time somebody takes a much-needed shot at the plan to hack a barrier through the middle of the Midtown area. We're talking about the fact that Michigan's roads are going to shit ...

... but you know WHY they're going to shit? Because MDOT keeps ENLARGING roads when it can't even afford to fund the FUCKING MAINTENANCE on the roads it ALREADY HAS! Which brings us back to how FUCKING STUPID this EXPANSION plan is. Just repair the goddamn bridges and move on.

Sorry to return to this thread derailment from earlier, but I must emphasize that this freeway reconstruction many seem to loathe is very much maintenance. For Christs sake, its a FEDERAL INTERSTATE! It is not just a road for locals to use get to fucking hockey games. LOL at a thread about shitty roads and here comes the zillionth complaint about fixing one of the shittiest sections of road around here. The feds are paying for the lions share of it anyway and they want it to meet current federal standards since we're about 30 years behind in that department. I can only imagine the people travelling from Chicago to Buffalo driving through Detroit going 'What, you gotta be kidding me, right?'

[Cincinnati_Kid]

And YOUR underhanded governor wants to put the road repairs on the backs of the tax payers AGAIN, by raising the gas tax and vehicle registration fees. What a concept!! Just keep eroding away the people of the state of michigan's income by suggesting THEY be responsible for everything state government should be.

[lpg]

And it always amazes me that when the economy is in the toilet that's when everything suddenly needs to be fixed. When times are good just waste the money on pet projects.