Curbed: GPP doesn't want Detroit

[Bham1982]

The ironic thing is that GPP is probably one of the least biased towns in Metro Detroit.

If one were a racist, or even merely had discomfort around black people, one could hardly find a less logical residence than GPP. It's now a diverse town, and, because neighboring Detroit areas are 95%+ black, there is obviously a large presence of African Americans most places in the Pointes.

[iheartthed]

because neighboring Detroit areas are 95%+ black, there is obviously a large presence of African Americans most places in the Pointes.

That is not obvious and is not true. Communities with a history of extreme racial exclusionary policies have been relatively slow to attract middle class black residents. Despite being right next to Detroit, GPP is significantly less black than Farmington Hills, a city which does not have the same history of discriminatory practices against minorities. Dearborn also has a lower percentage of black residents than it might otherwise have, apparently due to its history of racial discriminatory practices.

[Bham1982]

That is not obvious and is not true. Communities with a history of extreme racial exclusionary policies have been relatively slow to attract middle class black residents. Despite being right next to Detroit, GPP is significantly less black than Farmington Hills, a city which does not have the same history of discriminatory practices against minorities. Dearborn also has a lower percentage of black residents than it might otherwise have, apparently due to its history of racial discriminatory practices.

Farmington Hills is adjacent to majority-black Southfield. The two communities are not that different economically, so it makes sense there would be such demographic patterns.

In contrast the Pointes are much wealthier than adjacent areas of Detroit, so it makes sense that the in-migration would be somewhat less. But the Pointes still have an extremely fast growing black population. GP North High has a large black population, and the earlier grade levels are larger still.

[iheartthed]

Farmington Hills is adjacent to majority-black Southfield. The two communities are not that different economically, so it makes sense there would be such demographic patterns.

In contrast the Pointes are much wealthier than adjacent areas of Detroit, so it makes sense that the in-migration would be somewhat less. But the Pointes still have an extremely fast growing black population. GP North High has a large black population, and the earlier grade levels are larger still.

This still does not answer why Farmington Hills has a higher percentage of black people than Grosse Pointe Park. There are relatively affluent Detroit neighborhoods that are in close proximity to Grosse Pointe. But for some reason, middle class black families largely leapfrogged settling in the Pointes. Again, I'm sure it has a lot to do with the history of GP and not because Farmington Hills is closer to Southfield. Looking further north and west West Bloomfield has a similar percentage of black residents as GPP, although a much higher count of actual black residents due to its larger population. West Bloomfield doesn't border Southfield and is pretty far from Detroit. There are no traditional "black" cities in close proximity. So why do more black families choose to live there than GPP, which borders the blackest major city in America?

[ABetterDetroit]

Why even care? Never heard of "fences make good neighbors"? I don't live in either city but I spend thousands every year in Detroit, I will go out of my way to spend my money in the D. I cant even remember the last time I spent a dime in GP. The reality is GP needs Detroit a hell of a lot more than Detroit needs GP. If Detroit were farm fields instead of a city GP wouldn't have ever existed. Snow will melt, it always does.

[Bham1982]

The reality is GP needs Detroit a hell of a lot more than Detroit needs GP. If Detroit were farm fields instead of a city GP wouldn't have ever existed. Snow will melt, it always does.

Using that logic, Detroit is permanently indebted to French fur-trappers and European colonialists/empire builders.

In the real world, Detroit is a huge drag on basically everything in the Pointes. The reason the Pointes are more affordable than crappier suburbs is only because of proximity to horrible areas in Detroit.

[ABetterDetroit]

In the real world, Detroit is a huge drag on basically everything in the Pointes. The reason the Pointes are more affordable than crappier suburbs is only because of proximity to horrible areas in Detroit.

Cmon, next your going to tell me all those incomes in the pointes are earned right there in those municipalities right? Autonomous burbs could go it alone, never want or need to cross a border, be better off alone on island in the middle of the ocean....

[Scottathew]

Cmon, next your going to tell me all those incomes in the pointes are earned right there in those municipalities right? Autonomous burbs could go it alone, never want or need to cross a border, be better off alone on island in the middle of the ocean....

I don't think anyone is trying to suggest that the suburbs are autonomous. Many folks, myself included, commute into Detroit and depend Detroit jobs.

The goal of sealing off Kerchival is not autonomy. In many communities in the suburbs different types of land use are separated. Industrial zones don't have residential streets running through them.

This section of Detroit is no longer residential, it's urban prairie. Many of the remaining houses attract squaters and crime. There's a reason why people in Detroit want neighborhoods like this gone, and there's a reason why Grosse Pointe Park wants to be separated from it. We can blame it all on racism, or we can actually work on addressing the issue that causes GPPers and Detroiters alike to not want to live near it.

[ABetterDetroit]

This section of Detroit is no longer residential, it's urban prairie. Many of the remaining houses attract squaters and crime. There's a reason why people in Detroit want neighborhoods like this gone, and there's a reason why Grosse Pointe Park wants to be separated from it. We can blame it all on racism, or we can actually work on addressing the issue that causes GPPers and Detroiters alike to not want to live near it.

In my original reply I said that "good fences make good neighbors" that part wasn't quoted.

[Honky Tonk]

Why even care? Never heard of "fences make good neighbors"? I don't live in either city but I spend thousands every year in Detroit, I will go out of my way to spend my money in the D. I cant even remember the last time I spent a dime in GP. The reality is GP needs Detroit a hell of a lot more than Detroit needs GP. If Detroit were farm fields instead of a city GP wouldn't have ever existed. Snow will melt, it always does.

First of all, Thanx for visiting and spending money in the "D". We really appreciate your repeat business. Second of all, you base this on what? If it wasn't for GP, all the affluent Detroiters would have no place to move to.

[Honky Tonk]

Do any of you "GP haters" ACTUALLY go into GP? If so, do you just drive through, or get out of your cars and go into the retail shops? Maybe we're talking about two different GP's, like on the old Star Trek series, you know, parallel universes and such. Because when I go there, "I see Black People". They live there, they hang out there, they're employed there. They seem to get along with the "White People". The difference is, GP is a safer enviornment then Detroit, and businesses actually stay open later. Street lights are on. It feels warm and fuzzy. I could be wrong, though. Maybe all the "White People", in the wee hours of the night, put on white sheets and hoods, and dance around caldrons? Perhaps some actual "White" GP residents could shed light on this ancient ritual?

[TKshreve]

Do any of you "GP haters" ACTUALLY go into GP? If so, do you just drive through, or get out of your cars and go into the retail shops? Maybe we're talking about two different GP's, like on the old Star Trek series, you know, parallel universes and such. Because when I go there, "I see Black People". They live there, they hang out there, they're employed there. They seem to get along with the "White People". The difference is, GP is a safer enviornment then Detroit, and businesses actually stay open later. Street lights are on. It feels warm and fuzzy. I could be wrong, though. Maybe all the "White People", in the wee hours of the night, put on white sheets and hoods, and dance around caldrons? Perhaps some actual "White" GP residents could shed light on this ancient ritual?

I think the general consensus amongst the white GP community is if you are black and from Detroit, you are more than welcome to move in, pay your taxes and live viably with the community. However, if you bring ghetto tendencies and/or a thug mantra with you, I cannot guarantee local GP'ers will treat you with respect and open arms. That community prefers to hold itself to a higher standard of living and expectation. That means: mow your lawn, take the xmas decorations down at one point, drive responsibly, parent your children, etc.

This goes for all races, sexes, religions and socioeconomically diverse groups for that matter.

[warsaw7]

Do any of you "GP haters" ACTUALLY go into GP? If so, do you just drive through, or get out of your cars and go into the retail shops? Maybe we're talking about two different GP's, like on the old Star Trek series, you know, parallel universes and such. Because when I go there, "I see Black People". They live there, they hang out there, they're employed there. They seem to get along with the "White People". The difference is, GP is a safer enviornment then Detroit, and businesses actually stay open later. Street lights are on. It feels warm and fuzzy. I could be wrong, though. Maybe all the "White People", in the wee hours of the night, put on white sheets and hoods, and dance around caldrons? Perhaps some actual "White" GP residents could shed light on this ancient ritual?

Nailed it!!!

[Novine]

An article on the same topic talks about GPP purchasing properties in Detroit to demolish them. All financed with voter approval although questions arose whether the actions were done in public view.

http://www.grossepointenews.com/Arti...in-secret.html

[Dan Wesson]

An article on the same topic talks about GPP purchasing properties in Detroit to demolish them. All financed with voter approval although questions arose whether the actions were done in public view.

http://www.grossepointenews.com/Arti...in-secret.html

I heard they were going to extend and widen the Fox Canal
and make a no mans land on the banks.

<sarc off>

[EastsideAl]

I heard they were going to extend and widen the Fox Canal
and make a no mans land on the banks.

<sarc off>

<sarc still off> Why not? They already closed the bridge off.

[EastsideAl]

While I understand the concern of people in GPP, I think this move is as likely to backfire economically as to create any real added degree of safety for them. As Honky Tonk correctly notes, a lot of us Detroiters, of all races, shop regularly in GP stores. We are a significant portion of their customer base. But given the blunt nastiness with which this decision has been implemented [[plowing snow into a wall? really?), I wonder if they actually realize how much of a portion we are.

Shutting off Kercheval will inevitably lower traffic flow, and, almost as importantly, will send a needless message of hostility to potential customers. I know that some of the businesses in the Park, immediately adjacent to Detroit, are the biggest advocates of this plan. But they are the most likely of all to be hurt by the reduced flow of traffic past their stores, since their businesses will be the ones directly behind the barrier. They are essentially buying a most likely false sense of security and isolation at the expense of their own business traffic. I think, sadly, the likely result will be exactly the opposite of what they envision, and we will see more empty stores in GPP in the coming years.

Given the highly likely reduction in traffic, and the hostile message sent to a vital segment of their customer base, I have to wonder how the merchants down in the Village and the Hill are greeting this ill-thought-out plan. For my part, I know I am a lot less likely to go to a place that makes it more, not less, inconvenient to go there, and so clearly sends a message that your kind isn't wanted around here.

[Bham1982]

I grew up in that general area, and I'm pretty confident that WB and FH have a large black population, in significant part due to proximity to Southfield and NW Detroit. NW Detroit was historically the biggest upwardly mobile middle class and professional black area, and, as suburbanization occurred, black families first moved into Southfield and later into West Bloomfield and Farmington Hills.


In contrast, the East Side doesn't have as much black wealth, and suburbanized decades later [[Southfield had majority black schools way back in the 80's, while East Side Detroit-adjacent districts had barely a black student as recent as 2000).

So in short, while I think racism can play a role in migration patterns, I think the main driver of Oakland County black wealth is the fact that Oakland County is NW Detroit-adjacent. Upwardly mobile blacks followed Jews outward.

[mwilbert]

Upwardly mobile blacks followed Jews outward.

That would be my view. Blacks have been following Jews northwest for many decades. On the other hand, fifty years ago neither was much desired in GP. All kinds of things have changed since then, but settlement patterns don't change quickly.

[TKshreve]

That would be my view. Blacks have been following Jews northwest for many decades. On the other hand, fifty years ago neither was much desired in GP. All kinds of things have changed since then, but settlement patterns don't change quickly.

That's a pretty fair assessment. I would add that the bursting of housing bubble in 2008-09 allowed this change to accelerate. And in all areas.

[iheartthed]

All kinds of things have changed since then, but settlement patterns don't change quickly.

That was my point. I doubt GPP of today would be as hostile to blacks or Jews as it was 40 years ago, but the damage was already done. Blacks and Jews tend to avoid it even when they can afford it. Same goes for Dearborn, which is only 4% black. Why do black people apparently avoid Dearborn while similarly working class Redford Township is nearly 30% black?

[Bham1982]

That was my point. I doubt GPP of today would be as hostile to blacks or Jews as it was 40 years ago, but the damage was already done. Blacks and Jews tend to avoid it even when they can afford it. Same goes for Dearborn, which is only 4% black. Why do black people apparently avoid Dearborn while similarly working class Redford Township is nearly 30% black?

Because the Arab population has East Dearborn on lockdown. It's totally dominated by a single demographic. Redford has lots of empty houses and room for expansion.

[iheartthed]

Because the Arab population has East Dearborn on lockdown. It's totally dominated by a single demographic. Redford has lots of empty houses and room for expansion.

No, it's because Dearborn has a very racist history. I know some black people who still don't even like to drive through Dearborn because of its past.

[iheartthed]

The Jews also went northwest because of discrimination: http://www.jta.org/1960/06/22/archiv...h-point-system

[Scottathew]

I used to live in Warren and my experience there were that some [[but not all) of the older neighbors were racist. Nearly all of the younger folks had no race issues. I lived on a very diverse street south of 10 Mile.

There were a few black families on the street and the rest where white families and Bengali families [[maybe like 30% Bengali). One man in his 50's noted to me that he didn't like "the blacks" that were renting the house across the street. Another much older man noted to me that a lot of "negros" were moving in. I told both of them that I didn't really care as long as they were friendly and mowed their lawn.

The rest of the folks I spoke with had no reservations about minorities because they either hated racism or they were a minority.

The housing meltdown will cause the whole region to blend. Some areas more than others.

I live in Rochester Hills now and my neighborhood is much more diverse than I thought it would be. The nice thing is that, pardon my French, nobody here gives a f--k about your race or color, at least no one that I've spoken too.