Michigan's Brain Drain Persists

[maverick1]

The warmer South and West are much more the places where people are moving, as a national trend. Those places are experiencing growth while Chicago lost close to as many people as Detroit in the last census. Michigan to Chicago movement is a more regional phenomenon. Sometimes it seems like everyone in Chicago is from Michigan, yet they are still loosing people. I bet if it wasn't for Michigan, Chicago would have even more severe population loss.

I'm not sure if the South and Southwest will attract people the way they have the past 30 years. I don't see their economic model maintaining that same growth.

[maverick1]

Patterson and Hackel have created a joint statement to rebut your post: "Hey, things suck all around, but at least we aren't Detroit so we must be doing really well"

Granted, an enormous number of the dumb fucks in this region actually believe this is the case. I do take solace in the fact that even the educated in this region can be so ignorant and shortsighted. It makes me feel like I am the one eyed man in the land of the blind.

Lol!!! All jokes aside I wonder what world the people who believe that are in. Let's assume they are correct. If it's so great why aren't they mentioned with the top 10 cities in this country? Why aren't people locating to either county?

[maverick1]

I'm not surprised at this. I'm a professional in my 30s and I've had quite a few friends leave. I think Metro Detroiters are in denial of how unattractive this region is. I've mentioned on this forum before how the interns from Europe at my old job didn't like it here. They stayed in the suburbs and were bored. The most frustrating thing about conversations like this is that Detroit or Metro-Detroit has everything to be world-class but the will to be world class. No one comes to a metropolitan area for it's suburbs. And there is nothing wrong with suburbs if that's what you like. But for them to be the focal point of a metropolitan area you're losing.

[ghettopalmetto]

The warmer South and West are much more the places where people are moving, as a national trend. Those places are experiencing growth while Chicago lost close to as many people as Detroit in the last census. Michigan to Chicago movement is a more regional phenomenon. Sometimes it seems like everyone in Chicago is from Michigan, yet they are still loosing people. I bet if it wasn't for Michigan, Chicago would have even more severe population loss.

So are people also moving South for the wonderfully muggy, oppressive summers, where you can't even go outside because it's 90 degrees and humid at bedtime?

[noise]

I just wish the whiners would move already and quit crying about Chicago on this forum.

[Bham1982]

"But no one wants to talk about these places, because they're sprawly and suburban. They prefer to cling to the notion that the only way you fix an economy is with hipsters and choo-choo trains, facts be damned."

As is most of Metro Detroit. But the region has proven that "sprawly and suburban" doesn't guarantee economic or population growth.

I think you know that this was not my argument. Saying that urbanity doesn't equate to economic success doesn't mean that lack of urbanity does lead to success.

I'm saying these thing aren't strongly linked, at all. Obviously correlation doesn't imply causation.

[Bham1982]

So are people also moving South for the wonderfully muggy, oppressive summers, where you can't even go outside because it's 90 degrees and humid at bedtime?

I would bet most people would happily trade places right about now. Commuting was hell today, and 90F and muggy sounds like a dream.

[Patrick]

Patterson and Hackel have created a joint statement to rebut your post: "Hey, things suck all around, but at least we aren't Detroit so we must be doing really well"

Granted, an enormous number of the dumb fucks in this region actually believe this is the case. I do take solace in the fact that even the educated in this region can be so ignorant and shortsighted. It makes me feel like I am the one eyed man in the land of the blind.

Spend a year or two away from the region and see how it affects your opinion of the place. You'll be fucking amazed at how much your opinion of the SE MI will change once away for a while.

[Patrick]

Okay, so why are you so worried about Texas, North Carolina, and Florida, then?

Texas has oil and shares a border with Mexico. End of story. Worrying about Texas isn't going to do a damned thing to help Michigan.

Will you soon be panicking that North Dakota is kicking Michigan's ass in "economic growth"?

I disagree to an extent. Michigan sure as hell needs to be mindful of those Rick Perry types seeking to poach corporations from the state.

[wolverine]

Don't you find it telling that 2/3 of them come back to Michigan?

If Chicago is all that great, one would expect more of them to stay there. And if Michigan is all that bad... they wouldn't be coming back...

I wonder if folks out of college go to Chicago to party... and then when they get it out of their system they come back to raise a family...

I've had conversations with my friend about this who is job recruiter and a statistics nut. Much of the boomerang effect you see in Michigan and Wisconsin has a lot to do with raising a family.

It's really not all that uncommon to find companies with offices in both states. If the option is available to relocate to a familiar suburb, they'll do it. The Chicago suburbs to me are so unfamiliar I'll stick with the Chicago or transfer to Michigan.

While Chicago is an expensive place to raise a family, it's slowly bucking the trend of flight to the suburbs once the kids are born. The city can't open schools fast enough in the wealthier hoods while poor neighborhoods are declining

As for cost of living. The theater and $100 meal was funny but definitely not part of the average Chicago lifestyle of more low key dining or heading to the bar. If you are young and without kids, you are probably living in a 1 bedroom and have monthly expenses only slightly higher than that of michigan. But you are offered so much in return. A safe urban environment with tons of places to eat and shop and trains and cheap taxis to get you there.

It's a lot harder to make that work with a family so I guess that might be Michigan's edge if attracting young talent isn't doing enough...unfortunately it's a burden on the state. The bigger issue here is retaining a large young workforce that is innovative and creates new markets and builds the economy while expecting little in return from government or social services. Bottom line, they offset the costs of an older population. If anything, the revolving door of young professionals is better for Chicago in the end

[iheartthed]

Don't you find it telling that 2/3 of them come back to Michigan?

If Chicago is all that great, one would expect more of them to stay there. And if Michigan is all that bad... they wouldn't be coming back...

I wonder if folks out of college go to Chicago to party... and then when they get it out of their system they come back to raise a family...

Don't you find it telling that 1/3 of them don't? And that Michigan probably holds onto none of the transplants that come from Chicago?

[noise]

Spend a year or two away from the region and see how it affects your opinion of the place. You'll be fucking amazed at how much your opinion of the SE MI will change once away for a while.

In which direction? I've moved around a bit and I think I enjoy SE MI more now.

[Eber Brock Ward]

In which direction? I've moved around a bit and I think I enjoy SE MI more now.

Same, both in the states and with a significant time abroad.

[Bham1982]

Don't you find it telling that 1/3 of them don't? And that Michigan probably holds onto none of the transplants that come from Chicago?

I think that's probably a pretty typical ratio for most states. The U.S. is a highly transient country.

As for transplants, Illinois is one of the biggest states for new Michigan residents, and given that Chicagoland is like 75% of the state, I assume lots of Michiganders are former Chicagoans.

[Detroitnerd]

If Michigan wants young, educated people to stay, maybe it should listen to what they want and actually do it. Because young, educated people know the difference between being listened to and being patronized and ignored.

This post from Cleveland could well be about Detroit.

http://rustwire.com/2012/12/10/citie...-they-ask-for/

[ghettopalmetto]

If Michigan wants young, educated people to stay, maybe it should listen to what they want and actually do it. Because young, educated people know the difference between being listened to and being patronized and ignored.

This post from Cleveland could well be about Detroit.

http://rustwire.com/2012/12/10/citie...-they-ask-for/

Rustwire is typically more than a bit snarky and cynical. I think I know what he's trying to say in this piece regarding livability, but there's no way in hell that $3000+ a month in rent is "livable" for most people [[even bright, college-educated ones). So that pretty much throws out his bullshit argument that Boston, New York, and San Francisco have everything figured out.

A long-time friend lives in Oakland, and bemoans that San Francisco is no longer an interesting city, but rather a touristy facade where people visit just to eat--the only people who can live there are tech millionaires [[who often come from well-to-do families to begin with). So, there's that.

[aj3647]

Don't you find it telling that 2/3 of them come back to Michigan?

If Chicago is all that great, one would expect more of them to stay there. And if Michigan is all that bad... they wouldn't be coming back...

I wonder if folks out of college go to Chicago to party... and then when they get it out of their system they come back to raise a family...

Ask yourself this, were it not for familial ties, how many of those people would come back to Michigan? You still think it'd be two-thirds? Were it not for the sole draw of being in close proximity to their family who live in Michigan, I'd bet many of those people would cut bait on this state entirely.

Really, how many of those people are coming back solely because Michigan is just soooooooooo great that they can't imagine living anywhere else?

[Detroitnerd]

Rustwire is typically more than a bit snarky and cynical. I think I know what he's trying to say in this piece regarding livability, but there's no way in hell that $3000+ a month in rent is "livable" for most people [[even bright, college-educated ones). So that pretty much throws out his bullshit argument that Boston, New York, and San Francisco have everything figured out.

A long-time friend lives in Oakland, and bemoans that San Francisco is no longer an interesting city, but rather a touristy facade where people visit just to eat--the only people who can live there are tech millionaires [[who often come from well-to-do families to begin with). So, there's that.

True, true. I lived in New York 11 years and came back here knowing exactly why I wanted to be here. But it's not about having a magic formula so much as it is pursuing the things that people want. Which I guess goes back to how alienated the powers that be are from the people, and vice-versa.

[ghettopalmetto]

True, true. I lived in New York 11 years and came back here knowing exactly why I wanted to be here. But it's not about having a magic formula so much as it is pursuing the things that people want. Which I guess goes back to how alienated the powers that be are from the people, and vice-versa.

I agree. It can't be a top-down, pre-engineered PR effort. People in the Great Lakes region are reknowned for their blunt candor, and they're going to smell a fish a mile away. The approach has to be authentic to work. A prepackaged campaign is going to turn off a lot of people, although looking at the Global Cleveland site, it has a lot of personal stories from people who have "boomeranged" and doesn't appear as ham-fisted as other marketing efforts I've seen.

But I get pissy when Dan Gilbert and Mike Ilitch get everything on their wishlist before they even ask...

...and when any regular Joe dares to say "streetcars", "light rail" or "bike lanes", all the peons get is, "Well, we came up with this new technology that's kinda like a BUS, but it LOOKS like a TRAIN! Isn't that NEATO?"

How to stop the Brain Drain? Elected leaders [[and you too, George Jackson) need to open their damn eyes and ears instead of issuing decrees from on-high.

[poobert]

A long-time friend lives in Oakland, and bemoans that San Francisco is no longer an interesting city, but rather a touristy facade where people visit just to eat--the only people who can live there are tech millionaires [[who often come from well-to-do families to begin with). So, there's that.

Certainly. However Oakland is a pretty interesting place in itself. Then, drive ten minutes and you're in God's country in terms of scenic beauty, walking and running trails. Or hop on the BART and you're in San Fran, which, despite being over-touristed, is still a world-class city. Plus the weather is generally quite nice, and there are plenty of opportunities.

There isn't a magic formula, to be sure, but you gotta bring something to the table. We have terrible weather, terrible economy, terrible central city, and then "our" Oakland, which, infamously, can boast little more than it "isn't Detroit." Our solution seems to be to further make more "isn't Detroit" and expect things to be different.

[masterblaster]

I am amazed that these silly nonsensical threads continue to be recycled.

Chicago's economy sucks. It has the same issues as around here.

Chicago has the second worst population loss in the nation, after Detroit. The unemployment rate in Chicago and Detroit is virtually the same.

And Illinois is an absolute mess relative to Michigan. The fact is that Michigan has higher population growth than Illinois. Illinois is in even worse fiscal condition than Michigan.

The metro areas and states that are kicking our asses are places like Texas, North Carolina, and Florida. But no one wants to talk about these places, because they're sprawly and suburban. They prefer to cling to the notion that the only way you fix an economy is with hipsters and choo-choo trains, facts be damned.

The people who move to Chicago after graduation are 90% in the suburbs, in the Sunbelt or back in Michigan by the time they reach 30. That's why you barely see anyone over the postcollegiate age in the popular Chicago neighborhoods, and why Chicago Public Schools are 90% families from poverty.

The Chicago metropolition area population grew by 1.8 million from 1970 to 2010.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_metropolitan_area

The Detroit metro area has dropped slightly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Detroit

If the core of Detroit [[let's say within the Grand Boulevard Loop) provided what the north and near west sides of Chicago, then I contend the metro area population would not have been stagnant. Do you think that Chicago's metro area would have increased by two milion if it didn't have such a strong downtown and urbane inner city neighborhoods?

You stated that Chicago lost the second most amount of people according to the last census, however, as a % of the total population, chicago's loss 8% of its population, while Detroit's was 25%. The city after Detroit was Cleveland, with 17%.

Also, a lot of those sunbelt cities have something going for them that keeps them growing, and that is warm weather year-round. We [[and Chicago) don't have that. But if we can provide a strong core, good parks, good rapid and regional transit, then maybe we can attract more people to the city and region. The city being a relative dump hasn't helped anybody around here.

[Dumpling]

It was partly the Garbage Chalet by Lake Arrowhead near Los Angeles
that convinced me I should come back to Detroit. Though that homeowner's
sense of humor is appreciated, In Michigan there is relatively better access
to bodies of water large and small for recreation and enjoyment.
That said, most of my relatives with science and engineering degrees have
found work out of state. An exception is a cousin who graduated from a car
industry specific institution in Flint. [[Kettering?)
If your Detroit trash didn't get picked up this week the Garbage Chalet here
is just outside the Southfield Yard in the southwest corner of Malfunction
Junction. There are several Courville containers outside the yard entrance.
They are intended for smaller bulk drop offs but you could put your regular trash in.

[illwill]

Originally Posted by Bham1982
I am amazed that these silly nonsensical threads continue to be recycled.

Chicago's economy sucks. It has the same issues as around here.

Chicago has the second worst population loss in the nation, after Detroit. The unemployment rate in Chicago and Detroit is virtually the same.

And Illinois is an absolute mess relative to Michigan. The fact is that Michigan has higher population growth than Illinois. Illinois is in even worse fiscal condition than Michigan.

The metro areas and states that are kicking our asses are places like Texas, North Carolina, and Florida. But no one wants to talk about these places, because they're sprawly and suburban. They prefer to cling to the notion that the only way you fix an economy is with hipsters and choo-choo trains, facts be damned.

The people who move to Chicago after graduation are 90% in the suburbs, in the Sunbelt or back in Michigan by the time they reach 30. That's why you barely see anyone over the postcollegiate age in the popular Chicago neighborhoods, and why Chicago Public Schools are 90% families from poverty.

Yopu just don't understand. What Detroit needs to be competitive is a thriving arts, music, and culture scene. The artists go to the clubs at night and listen to the music and spend money. The musicians take the money they earned from their nightly gigs and go to galleries in the daytime and buy the artist's works. The money just keeps recycling. Instant prosperity! The best part is that the "very special" people like Poobert don't have to associate with all of those crass STEM types.

I agree with Bham about Illinois' horrible financial crisis. There's no doubt that Illinois' financial situation is far worse-off than Michigan's. Chicago's situation isn't all that bad and CAN and WILL be corrected if the state can survive. I don't think it can. The reason Chicago is suffering at the rate they are is because of the States fiscal crisis and former mayor richard daley's horrific mismanagement and over spending.

But at the end of the day, people who are moving to Chicago aren't concerned about the states fiscal issues. Like most others have said, people want to live in a LARGE thriving and functional urban environment with a sizable population.

And believe me, most of the young families that are living on the Northside are from Michigan...along with the other Great Lake States. I do business with them all the time and it blows my mind at the number of people I meet who are from MI.

One more thing...Chicagoland has already crossed OVER INTO the Michigan border. I was watching a show last night and a New Buffalo, MI. resident was quoted as referring to N.B. as Chicagoland. I was shocked.

Anyhow, big deal!

[illwill]

Southeast Michigan and the State of Michigan is amazing to me. My problem is...EVERY single G.D. thing is so spread out that it drove me crazy! Detroit, Auburn Hills, Southfield, Royal Oak/Ferndale, Troy, Bham, Novi, Ann Arbor, Downriver, Pontiac etc... I wrecked two cars as a young man spinning out on the ice on I-94 in the winter time while driving from city to city for entertainment. I was drinking and driving when I knew I wasn't suppose to be and I no longer wanted to risk getting a DUI or killing myself or someone else. Yet, I was young and knew I liked to party and do lots of different things. I was extremely outgoing and knew this wasn't going to work for me in Michigan so I left for a city where everything was in a central location and offered reliable public transit. And I bounced around from big city to big city and eventually settled.

I was hanging out with a friend over Thanksgiving and like old times...we partied at his house for a while then went out to meet friends at a bar in a different burb. That 30 minute drive seemed like a VERY dangerous eternity to me as he drove us through ANOTHER snow storm on the E-way. At that time I knew I made a good decision moving to the city. No accidents, no ice, no storms, no hitting Deer, speeding drunk drivers etc...

Walk, bus, bike or Train.

[Bham1982]

The Chicago metropolition area population grew by 1.8 million from 1970 to 2010.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_metropolitan_area

The Detroit metro area has dropped slightly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Detroit

We're in 2014, not 1970. Michigan is growing faster than Illinois in the current day.

And you forgot to mention that 100% of Chicagoland growth was in the sprawliest suburbs. Chicago [[city proper) and surrounding Cook County [[inner suburbs) are both much smaller now, than in 1970.

In fact, Cook County has the second worst county population loss in the U.S. since 1970, and Chicago has the second worst city population loss in the U.S. since 1970.

Excepting downtown and enviros, the urban core of Chicagoland has mostly been rotting away, for 60 years now, like every other Rust Belt city. The only population growth has been in the "Novi" and "Macomb Twp" type exurbs.