Detroit Public Transportation: 2014 and beyond.

[dtowncitylover]

Well, it makes a big difference - if the platform is not weather-controlled in any way - how long people have to wait. If you are taking the Chicago elevated trains, you are on a platform whose only weather protection is from rain - there's a roof, but the legendary Chicago winds can render even that almost useless - but on the other hand, you don't have to wait long between trains.

It's the same with the People Mover. You can be hot, or cold, or whatever, on the platform, but whenever you get there, within 1 to 3 minutes you can see a train coming, and in another minute or two you're on board. If you had to wait fifteen or twenty minutes, your reaction to the weather, and willingness to wait outdoors, might be different.

So that, then, is another important detail to work out - what is going to be the maximum wait time? By the way, don't let them blow smoke up your ass with "average" wait times. You can drown standing up in a river that is three feet deep on average.

You are completely right, but this isn't being rolled out within the year. The RTA has ALOT to work out and the poster I was responding is being rather impatient about seeing details that can't be hashed out until well into the actual process.

[professorscott]

You are completely right, but this isn't being rolled out within the year. The RTA has ALOT to work out and the poster I was responding is being rather impatient about seeing details that can't be hashed out until well into the actual process.

I would agree with you except for one thing - the RTA is going to ask voters to approve a new tax. If an educated voter is going to be persuaded to vote yes, she has to have some idea what the result of an affirmative outcome is going to be, and even though the RTA won't be ready with exact details, they had better be able to provide some decent estimates.

Let's look at proposed BRT on, say, Gratiot. Are we talking about a bus, whose only special feature is a spiffy new paint job, that runs in mixed traffic and just makes fewer stops than the 560, and comes every half-hour? Or are we talking about a bus in dedicated lanes with pre-board fare payment and signal priority that comes every ten minutes? I doubt I would vote "yes" if the former. My "yes" is between the two and much closer to the latter, and I suspect that's going to be a fairly common opinion.

So, granting your point, details won't be known with great exactitude, but still, people have to have some idea.

[royce]

There's an article in Curbed Detroit about a delay in the RTA's decision to finalize it's master plan due to concerns by Macomb and Oakland counties. I wonder if they are having concerns like I have about the BRT having dedicated lanes. I traveled recently down Michigan Avenue west of Livernois, and I just can't see how relegating an entire lane in that area to a bus that only comes around every blue moon is the best usage of road space. Michigan Avenue in that area is only three lanes on each side of the center left-turn lane. A lot of viable businesses are along that stretch of Michigan Avenue as well. Eliminating those parking lanes for through traffic would hurt those businesses. In addition, removing the parking lanes there for through traffic could increase the number of rear-end collisions due to cars slowing down, abruptly in some cases, to make right turns into various businesses. With a parking lane, those collisions would be rare. That's my two cents.

[MSUguy]

Not one story on the matter said anything about BRT, but you're just "wondering" if that's an issue. We get it royce, you don't want real transit. Somehow many other cities can have transit in dedicated surface lanes without it causing a massive catastrophe. But not here. We get it.

[RO_Resident]

There's an article in Curbed Detroit about a delay in the RTA's decision to finalize it's master plan due to concerns by Macomb and Oakland counties. I wonder if they are having concerns like I have about the BRT having dedicated lanes.

The issue is more general than that. Macomb and Oakland Counties want guarantees that 85% of money generated from any millage would be spent in the county that generated the money.

Press release from Oakland and Macomb Counties:
https://www.oakgov.com/news/Pages/pr_16_75.aspx

Detailed issues presented to the RTA board by Oakland County:
https://www.oakgov.com/news/Document...an%20Final.pdf

RTA Response at the bottom of this article:
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...ise-objections

Essentially, if the RTA board does not adopt the plan at their meeting the week of July 25, there will be not be a ballot proposal this fall. No ballot proposal, RTA ceases to exist beyond a skeletal staff.

[professorscott]

The issue is more general than that. Macomb and Oakland Counties want guarantees that 85% of money generated from any millage would be spent in the county that generated the money.

I haven't checked out the links and they may already point this out, but the reason Macomb and Oakland are focused on that particular law is that the state laws that created the RTA mandate that at least 85% of funds generated in any county be spent in that county. I understand people being frustrated by this, but in order for improvements to move forward with a minimum of litigation, it is important for the RTA to be able to demonstrate that its plans follow the laws that created it.

[royce]

The issue is more general than that. Macomb and Oakland Counties want guarantees that 85% of money generated from any millage would be spent in the county that generated the money.

Press release from Oakland and Macomb Counties:
https://www.oakgov.com/news/Pages/pr_16_75.aspx

Detailed issues presented to the RTA board by Oakland County:
https://www.oakgov.com/news/Document...an%20Final.pdf

RTA Response at the bottom of this article:
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...ise-objections

Essentially, if the RTA board does not adopt the plan at their meeting the week of July 25, there will be not be a ballot proposal this fall. No ballot proposal, RTA ceases to exist beyond a skeletal staff.

Ok, setting aside my gripes on dedicated lanes and parking lanes, how can a county demand 85% of the funds that are collected in that county go to that county to maintain the BRT system? First, wouldn't the proposed 1.2 mills garner more money in Oakland County [[OC) because it is a richer county? So the BRT sites in OC can have butlers on hand to give out free caviar because OC will raise more money from the millage than the other counties, especially Wayne County. Shouldn't the funds from the millage go to take care of the entire BRT system? Woudn't the RTA know best where to allocate funds to maintain the system? For example, what if a car runs into a BRT stop in Wayne County and severely damages the structure. If Wayne County doesn't have enough "discretionary" money from it's own 15%, then can it borrow money from the other counties?

[professorscott]

Ok, setting aside my gripes on dedicated lanes and parking lanes, how can a county demand 85% of the funds that are collected in that county go to that county to maintain the BRT system?

The state law says that each county MUST receive in value of services at least 85% of the funds collected within that county. It's not the counties demanding something unreasonable, it's the counties demanding the RTA follow the laws that allow it to exist.

Let's say Oakland County is generating excessive funds, for the sake of argument. That means more money is available to spend for things like more frequent cross-county service, neighborhood shuttles to connect the neighborhoods to BRT, things of that nature. It wouldn't be spent on inanities.

In fact, the RTA can satisfy the two northern counties without modifying the proposed service map at all, just by tweaking service hours and frequencies. Oakland and Macomb both understand that Wayne County will receive in services way in excess of 100% of the money collected there, just in terms of service into and out of Detroit if nothing else. They are enforcing the limit called for in the four state laws that created the RTA, nothing more or less than that.

[dtowncitylover]

I am very apprehensive about the vote on Thursday.

I've been emailing with Bill Mullan, who works as the Communications person for the Patterson office. It's the same old argument of why are the exurban communities paying for it when they [[read: we) can't use it!?

Their long-winded memo was basically them sniping, "No! We don't want to pay!"

50 fucking years, and this. I truly can't believe it. I at least though Hackel was a decent guy...

[MSUguy]

And now Hackel wants the RTA board structure changed the to contracts and plans have unanimous supports. What a load of BS.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...plan/87618166/

[brizee]

This isn't raising an objection, this is sabotage.


Fuck this state.

Worst in the union.

[Bobl]

I agree that Brooks and Hack should allow a vote. If someone or some group could convince Macomb County voters to approve RTA, I nominate them for sainthood, though. It won't happen. I hear incoming, but please do not shoot the messenger.

[bibs]

I ended up moving 10 hours away for employment and I'm now living in Madison County Illinois across the river from St Louis. I park and ride the bus every day. We have a country wide transit system funded by sales tax revenue so the local politicos can't opt out and use it as a political football. It is clean, efficient and reliable. If a bus is running late or has a mechanical problem, an employee picks me up in a minivan. St Louis does have a subway that crosses over into Illinois. Red Bird buses pick people up at designated stops in order to take them to Cardinal games.

The problem in Metro Detroit is that they value the car over public transportation. Also, the us versus them is very pervasive. The position that public transportation doesn't pay for itself while the tax payer supported roads never pay for themselves either speaks volumes about what is valued. Also, the I've got mine screw you is all too common. Glad that I made the move. The negative vibe is what is driving people out of Michigan. You don't realize it until you move away and they come back to see family.

[dtowncitylover]

It as been vetoed.

Motor City Freedom Rider's FB page says they will meet again to reconsider, but no word on when...

FUCK THIS REGION. FUCK PATTERSON. FUCK HACKEL.

[belleislerunner]

I live in Detroit so I'm not a Macomb or Oakland Country representative but I'm not sure why you're upset. Those leaders answer to citizens from their County.

Based off their analysis - the proposed plan didn't do enough to benefit the residents of the County, based off the funds they were collecting, so they voted it down. The people who created the maps/plan should be fired for not thinking through [[or doing enough focus groups) or would this appeal to citizens in Oakland and Macomb.

The same thing happened in Atlanta two years ago. You're never going to convince people from the suburbs to pay for something unless you can show how they will benefit from this. The entire project management office of the RTA should be canned and they should get more collaborative people in place - you don't get votes by grandstanding or saying "Gilbert and Penske" approve it - you get votes by showing value. It's quite elementary.

[rbdetsport]

I live in Detroit so I'm not a Macomb or Oakland Country representative but I'm not sure why you're upset. Those leaders answer to citizens from their County.

Based off their analysis - the proposed plan didn't do enough to benefit the residents of the County, based off the funds they were collecting, so they voted it down. The people who created the maps/plan should be fired for not thinking through [[or doing enough focus groups) or would this appeal to citizens in Oakland and Macomb.

The same thing happened in Atlanta two years ago. You're never going to convince people from the suburbs to pay for something unless you can show how they will benefit from this. The entire project management office of the RTA should be canned and they should get more collaborative people in place - you don't get votes by grandstanding or saying "Gilbert and Penske" approve it - you get votes by showing value. It's quite elementary.

Brooks and Hackel have had ample amount of time to reject the legislation and the plan. There has been a massive amount of public involvement efforts. I agree that the cross-county connectors could go further, but these guys have been at the table throughout this entire process. To finally reject the plan at the zero-hour is disingenuous and political to say the least.

[Bobl]

Belleislerunner is correct. It wasn't sold well, either to Patterson or Hackel or more important, to the suburban voters. Tough job.

[dtowncitylover]

I live in Detroit so I'm not a Macomb or Oakland Country representative but I'm not sure why you're upset. Those leaders answer to citizens from their County.

Based off their analysis - the proposed plan didn't do enough to benefit the residents of the County, based off the funds they were collecting, so they voted it down. The people who created the maps/plan should be fired for not thinking through [[or doing enough focus groups) or would this appeal to citizens in Oakland and Macomb.

The same thing happened in Atlanta two years ago. You're never going to convince people from the suburbs to pay for something unless you can show how they will benefit from this. The entire project management office of the RTA should be canned and they should get more collaborative people in place - you don't get votes by grandstanding or saying "Gilbert and Penske" approve it - you get votes by showing value. It's quite elementary.

The citizens had their say during the public comment period which was basically 4 years long. The RTA has been very good at getting the word out on social media and their website with the skeletal staff and budget they have.

Patterson and frankly his puppet HACKel reasoned that the northern townships weren't getting service. What?! They're basically rural exurban communities built around the car! Their complaint was basically the system wasn't being built around the car! Eff that!

Where have they been the past 4 years to suddenly now sabotage this?

As well, if something isn't done by next week it may be another FOUR YEARS until the RTA could bring another ballot proposal. We don't have the kind of time to bow to the hissy fit of Boss Patterson!

[Hypestyles]

... Time to vacate the premises.. e.g., Southeast Michigan.. Time to find a job in a metro area that believes in public transit.

[Junjie]

The citizens had their say during the public comment period which was basically 4 years long. The RTA has been very good at getting the word out on social media and their website with the skeletal staff and budget they have.

Patterson and frankly his puppet HACKel reasoned that the northern townships weren't getting service. What?! They're basically rural exurban communities built around the car! Their complaint was basically the system wasn't being built around the car! Eff that!

Where have they been the past 4 years to suddenly now sabotage this?

As well, if something isn't done by next week it may be another FOUR YEARS until the RTA could bring another ballot proposal. We don't have the kind of time to bow to the hissy fit of Boss Patterson!

Yeah, that's what's really killer about this. It's either them being disingenuous [[possible) or not knowing much about how transit works [[also possible), but to say that the problem is "lack of service" to areas specifically built not to be serviceable by transit is just... so Michigan.

I understand the thing about 85% of funds going back to each county. Again, makes no sense [[it's equivalent to saying "transit should be distributed according to property values" rather than "transit should be distributed according to demand for transit"), but it's the law. Ok. In the next plan they should pay for gold plated subway on Woodward in Oakland and Gratiot in Macomb to suck up all the money they need to spend up there according to the legislation, and then the other 15% from each county can go into a real network in the city instead of utterly pointless buses to subdivisions ten miles from the nearest thing resembling an urban area. People don't move to Orion so they can get on the bus.

[bust]

The problem in Metro Detroit is that they value the car over public transportation. Also, the us versus them is very pervasive. The position that public transportation doesn't pay for itself while the tax payer supported roads never pay for themselves either speaks volumes about what is valued. Also, the I've got mine screw you is all too common. Glad that I made the move. The negative vibe is what is driving people out of Michigan. You don't realize it until you move away and they come back to see family.

I agree with this analysis. Except if the negative vibe is driving people out of Michigan [[and you and I are proof it is), some must have become aware of it before returning home for family. I think you were just being polite.

Those who look out only for themselves at the expense of their neighbors fail to see that it brings the whole region down and everyone loses in the end. At the risk of offending a few, I too have noticed this us versus them mentality seems much worse in Metro Detroit than in other places I've lived. I agree it's one of the biggest problems Metro Detroit must overcome.

Mass transit should emphasize the core areas within the region, and the people who need it most. It follows that Wayne county should see more service than the suburbs, and distant exurbs should be the lowest priority to see service at all. Like Junjie said [[much more articulately), it's simply the best use of funds.

But would it be unfair? The more functional the transit system the more it inspires a healthier regional economy. Instead of requiring not less than 85% of the funds they contribute are spent within their borders Oakland and Macomb counties should seek to achieve the best possible outcome for the region as a whole. A healthier regional economy benefits everyone. ...Just like a weak economy affects everyone -- the most insular suburbs too.

It's bewildering how short-sighted some can be in their selfishness.

I'm thankful for all those who don't suffer from this affliction. Metro Detroit still has many, but they're under-represented in local government for sure. Is there a better embodiment of Metro Detroit's us versus them problem than Patterson? Even while it seems the nonsensical 85% requirement imposed by the state legislature sets up initiatives like this one to fail.

It's sad. But it doesn't always have to be this way.

Like I heard the other day: together, we're stronger!

Michigan, give it a chance.

[royce]

Since when are super majorties a must have to decide on issues?
According to Hackel, not having that in the RTA's board vote is a deal killer for him. In life you cant always get what you want, that's why you take a vote. Sometimes you are in the majority and sometimes you are in the minority. However, now with "super majorities" you get your way when you are against something because your vote derails it regardless if everybody else votes for it. That to me is childish and Hackel is being exactly that.

[Dumpling]

If an effective regional transit system is put into place in Southeastern
Michigan it will probably connect denser areas relatively better so these
dense areas would then be poised to grow in population relative to outlying
areas in Oakland and Macomb County. Relatively speaking, outlying areas
will become fair game to be the landfills and leaf composting facilities for
the denser areas. It's the bitter side of effective urban planning.
Taking this into account, if I were the RTA executive, I would bend over
backward to see that their respective 85% or more would stay within the
counties.
Long term, if only Wayne and Washtenaw counties are going to benefit
from rail, only these counties should have a millage for rail.
If rail will extend through Oakland and Macomb Counties, that will be a
different story.

[Jason]

Hackel: Executive@MacombGov.org

Patterson: https://www.oakgov.com/exec/Pages/contact.aspx

[bust]

If an effective regional transit system is put into place in Southeastern
Michigan it will probably connect denser areas relatively better so these
dense areas would then be poised to grow in population relative to outlying
areas in Oakland and Macomb County. Relatively speaking, outlying areas
will become fair game to be the landfills and leaf composting facilities for
the denser areas. It's the bitter side of effective urban planning.
Taking this into account, if I were the RTA executive, I would bend over
backward to see that their respective 85% or more would stay within the
counties.
Long term, if only Wayne and Washtenaw counties are going to benefit
from rail, only these counties should have a millage for rail.
If rail will extend through Oakland and Macomb Counties, that will be a
different story.

A tree that impatiently grows too many twigs and leaves before there is a strong trunk and thick branches to feed them will starve and break and eventually topple in a storm. What are the leaves if not for the tree?

This was mostly a bus proposal, serving four counties. Rail and buses coordinate almost like how expressways coordinate with secondary and tertiary roads. Any good transit plan should address all modes concurrently.

And setting aside the aim of designing the most useful transit network, slowing sprawl is another worthy goal.

Someday I hope metro Detroit benefits from state of the art transit along Woodward, Gratiot, and many other routes. But it's got to start somewhere, and that somewhere should be what and where it makes the most sense. It only takes a slightly longer view to see that all of Metro Detroit is in this together.