Detroit Public Transportation: 2014 and beyond.

[Wesley Mouch]

Well, Detroit *could* obtain capital funding from the FTA--IF they had a funded regional transit authority with a dedicated source of revenue to support operations. Woodward already has the ridership to justify a light rail line.

I'm not sure what you mean by trains "becoming flexible"--does that mean they can bend in the middle now? I also don't know what kind of technological upgrades can fundamentally overcome the friction and heat inherent in a diesel engine with moving parts, and with rubber tires on pavement. But your faith in science is astounding.

There are dozens of light rail systems in the United States alone--many of them in areas much more thinly-populated than Detroit. There are only 5 bus rapid transit systems, though. So it makes one wonder why on earth a city would spend so much more money to construct light rail if trains and buses are effectively the same, as you claim.

You're overthinking my comments.

Bus & rail are not effectively the same. The differences are shrinking. Diesel not the only motive for busses. Overhead electric or 3rd rail not the only game in rail.

My main love for BRT is investment. Regardless of source, there's a limited amount of cash for investment -- in transportation. If you build BRT, you get more bang for you dollar today -- and of course an increase in operating costs in the future. A perfect trade off for a city with future hopes, but little clout today.

I'd rather see BRT on Fort, Michigan, Grand River, Woodward, Jefferson, than rail on Woodward and one other. And I'm sure you'll say how wrong I am about the relative capital costs of BRT vs. rail... but I think BRT can be done quite cheaply -- and improvements like signal control can come later. I think we need volume of routes more than we need operating efficiency.

Its an opinion. Bless you if you can find a way to fund rail and get it done. I think you'll end up with a great line on Woodward ... and nowhere else.

Meanwhile, the BRT could run all spokes, and even be expanded into the suburbs at minimal costs.

[LP_85]

My main love for BRT is investment. Regardless of source, there's a limited amount of cash for investment -- in transportation. If you build BRT, you get more bang for you dollar today -- and of course an increase in operating costs in the future. A perfect trade off for a city with future hopes, but little clout today.

I'd rather see BRT on Fort, Michigan, Grand River, Woodward, Jefferson, than rail on Woodward and one other. And I'm sure you'll say how wrong I am about the relative capital costs of BRT vs. rail... but I think BRT can be done quite cheaply -- and improvements like signal control can come later. I think we need volume of routes more than we need operating efficiency.

Its an opinion. Bless you if you can find a way to fund rail and get it done. I think you'll end up with a great line on Woodward ... and nowhere else.

Meanwhile, the BRT could run all spokes, and even be expanded into the suburbs at minimal costs.

Sorry, but I just don't buy this line of thinking. Either do it right from the outset, or don't do it at all. And if you want to do BRT right [[as in, meeting the ITDP's gold standard), then expect sizable capital costs. If the RTA cuts every corner possible in the initial deployment of its planned BRT line up Woodward, what makes you think any further improvements would be implemented? Especially if a half-assed system starts out with low ridership.

[That Great Guy]

The one mil tax voted in last August 5, 2014 permanently replaces CTF funding. Next August 2018, a vote of NO protects this property tax as a basic human right.

The city of Dearborn must pay 1 mil to SMART or equivalent such as the NEW RTA, if someone debates Mr. Hertel or Mr. Ford or those who replace them to stop them from getting more money. This how the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is worded and it is posted and explained in my website about SMART. search save the fuel tax org

If someone campaigns against this tax being passed or raised, ONLY the increase is defeated.

In 2016, we will vote on taxing License plate fees for public transit. Obviously, the 1 mil is not enough. So, mass transit tax advocates are looking at other tax mechanisms. What are your thoughts?

Who on this forum would pay a tax on plates or a sales tax, so I can go to my job on the SMART bus? I make enough and really think I should pay for my own ride. Or, at least the operating cost as an able-bodied person. I think I should pay for the handicapped also and am still against the MDOT cuts.

I think those who drive should pay for roads with the gas tax and think 10 percent is fair for mass transit.

[Wesley Mouch]

Gas tax is a terrible way to fund roads. Not the worst. But why should a expensive hybrid or electric car owner contribute less or none -- while a retiree driving a 1970s gas guzzler pay more?

Gas was historically a good way. Less so each passing day.

Soon you'll need a natural gas tax for trucks running on fracked gas.

[Gpwrangler]

Gas tax is a terrible way to fund roads. Not the worst. But why should a expensive hybrid or electric car owner contribute less or none -- while a retiree driving a 1970s gas guzzler pay more?

Gas was historically a good way. Less so each passing day.

Soon you'll need a natural gas tax for trucks running on fracked gas.

All the 70s gas guzzlers are scrap by now. All the oldsters around here are driving econoboxes now.

[That Great Guy]

Gas tax is a terrible way to fund roads. Not the worst. But why should a expensive hybrid or electric car owner contribute less or none -- while a retiree driving a 1970s gas guzzler pay more?

Gas was historically a good way. Less so each passing day.

Soon you'll need a natural gas tax for trucks running on fracked gas.

The gas tax for roads and ten percent for existing public mass transit is the best solution in Michigan at this time.

If my opponents get their way, we will soon be paying a tax on car license plates for SMART and DDOT in 2016, an increase in the SMART property tax in August 2018 and the State Constitution will be changed to allow a Sales tax for the County Roads and Transit Authority.

So, I use the SMART bus on Michigan Ave and drive. Who should pay for me? The taxpayers? I have a good job, so I'm contacting Mr. Hertel, Mr. Ford of the RTA who wants to plan my bus service and MDOT and telling them all that I want to pay the full cost. I want no hand outs.

If Michigan does not get its act together to fill up the trains and buses and fix roads by putting safety first and get the costs competitive with other states and countries, then we just forget about attracting any jobs to our State.

I'm very serious about public debates to pay for SMART and HOV lanes.

I hope Mr. Ford will listen to the public? It's bus or bust. Sans good 24/7 frequent bus service, forget light rail or bigger freeways because they won't work.

Could Lowell let my website be linked? I challenge all to find anything false or of any impairment to anyone in it.

save the fuel tax org

[Gpwrangler]

The gas tax for roads and ten percent for existing public mass transit is the best solution in Michigan at this time.

If my opponents get their way, we will soon be paying a tax on car license plates for SMART and DDOT in 2016, an increase in the SMART property tax in August 2018 and the State Constitution will be changed to allow a Sales tax for the County Roads and Transit Authority.

So, I use the SMART bus on Michigan Ave and drive. Who should pay for me? The taxpayers? I have a good job, so I'm contacting Mr. Hertel, Mr. Ford of the RTA who wants to plan my bus service and MDOT and telling them all that I want to pay the full cost. I want no hand outs.

If Michigan does not get its act together to fill up the trains and buses and fix roads by putting safety first and get the costs competitive with other states and countries, then we just forget about attracting any jobs to our State.

I'm very serious about public debates to pay for SMART and HOV lanes.

I hope Mr. Ford will listen to the public? It's bus or bust. Sans good 24/7 frequent bus service, forget light rail or bigger freeways because they won't work.

Could Lowell let my website be linked? I challenge all to find anything false or of any impairment to anyone in it.

save the fuel tax org

Would a per mile tax work better? It would level the playing field between hybrid vehicles and gas guzzlers.

If I recall correctly, fuel tax is per gallon and does not track with the price of fuel. That could also be fixed.

[Hermod]

Would a per mile tax work better? It would level the playing field between hybrid vehicles and gas guzzlers.

If I recall correctly, fuel tax is per gallon and does not track with the price of fuel. That could also be fixed.

While fuel tax as a percentage of the price would help, gasoline has been subject to wild price swings while the cost of building and maintaining roads and highways has increased at a very steady pace.

Solution: Figure out how much we need to have excellent roads, highways, and bridges PLUS a Cadillac public transit system. Legalize pot, make it a state monopoly, and price it to produce the amount needed above.

[canuck]

Hybrid car drivers also need to pay into it. They are users, and the fact that electricity in most places comes from fuel is the leveler in my opinion.

[That Great Guy]

Hybrid car drivers also need to pay into it. They are users, and the fact that electricity in most places comes from fuel is the leveler in my opinion.

75 percent of the voters said YES to adding more property taxes for our transportation system last August 5, 2014. This is based on a PDF file published by SMART stating this breakdown as follows.


$38 Million from property before the tax increase
$25 Million from CTF derived from the gas tax
$16 Million from the federal gas tax

We as the majority said YES to an additional $27 Million per year in property taxes.

It is obvious, the gas tax alone won't work.


We now should look at SMART to put safety first, then increase ridership. And if they can't do this then a vote of NO next August 2018 caps their tax. This is proven by much documented evidence that no one has yet successfully disputed or ever will.

Mr. John Hertel of SMART was publicly and openly challenged by me to go on television on the 6 O'clock NEWS on channels 2, 4 and 7 to talk to me on camera and he declined my request. If I'm going to pay someone $27 Million more per year then I want an account of how my money is being spent. I want a real mass transit system in Detroit and not more promises.

So, DetroitYES people? Let's brainstorm and make Detroit the leader in public transit.

I want to organize public meetings to fill up all the buses. If we can't do that then the game is over. It will be high taxes, low wage jobs, crowded freeways.

And a drive to the Amtrak station to park your car and get to Chicago in 3 hours instead of 4.


And a trolley ride in downtown Detroit.


Please correct the facts I've stated. I've just Googled it and the PDF is extensive, so I could have missed something?

[brizee]

http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/20463

That warm pungent liquid in the cup? A little cloudy yellow?

Yeah you can drink it if you want to.

[Gpwrangler]

While fuel tax as a percentage of the price would help, gasoline has been subject to wild price swings while the cost of building and maintaining roads and highways has increased at a very steady pace.

Solution: Figure out how much we need to have excellent roads, highways, and bridges PLUS a Cadillac public transit system. Legalize pot, make it a state monopoly, and price it to produce the amount needed above.

Per mile is a better idea. Technology could directly read mileage from the car and heavy road users pay more. We also need to have reasonable expectations of the road system. If you drive a tiny car with ridiculous wheels on it the roads will never be smooth enough for you. Not every crack has to be fixed.

Not sure about the mass transit option since the vast majority drive cars. I would love to have the option but safety issues need to be dealt with.

[dtowncitylover]

Did anyone attend? I was planning on going but had other things come up.

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...t_lanes_d.html

Rapid transit down Woodward would of course be nice. I think that as we continue to rebuild the inner city we must also face the facts and admit, for us urbanites/philes, the suburbs and exburbs, are here to stay. So building transit lines that connect the inner city to outer burbs should be a transportation priority as well. The M-59 BRT route is a pipe dream and frankly ridiculous. People in Clinton Twp across to Rochester Hills aren't going to take the bus up there. But they just might want to take a train into the city.

[brizee]

I was there.

Wasn't too much information there that wasn't already publicly available.

They're trying to get their own website up. Instead the GARBAGE Semcog page.

They're still TALKING to DDOT and SMART about one transit card.

TALKING about doing something for the airport.

Lots of talking.


It probably would be better if this kind of meeting was held by a an actual public body.

The behavior by TRU at the Q/A session...rubbed me the wrong way a little.

[dtowncitylover]

I was there.

Wasn't too much information there that wasn't already publicly available.

They're trying to get their own website up. Instead the GARBAGE Semcog page.

They're still TALKING to DDOT and SMART about one transit card.

TALKING about doing something for the airport.

Lots of talking.


It probably would be better if this kind of meeting was held by a an actual public body.

The behavior by TRU at the Q/A session...rubbed me the wrong way a little.

Yeah while I agree with the principles of TRU, I wish they were more militant in their advocacy and lobbying work.

[rooms222]

One of the issues with BRT to me is that the vast majority of time, an express bus on the freeways is going to be faster than BRT. For example, the 851 bus, even during rush hour normally takes less than a half an hour to go from Northland mall to downtown Detroit [[and less than an hour to go from 696 and Orchard Lake to downtown). Service is very limited- eight trips a day southbound during morning rush hour and eight trips northbound during evening rush hour. Service frequency and availability is a real problem with public transit in Metro Detroit.

[professorscott]

One of the issues with BRT to me is that the vast majority of time, an express bus on the freeways is going to be faster than BRT.

Well certainly, but they serve different purposes. The 851 only works if you're starting or can easily get to its origin point; if you're between there and downtown it doesn't serve you at all. BRT serves more stops at the expense of time.

Service is very limited- eight trips a day southbound during morning rush hour and eight trips northbound during evening rush hour. Service frequency and availability is a real problem with public transit in Metro Detroit.

A rush-hour-only, commuter-only freeway express serves its purpose adequately with that many trips. Again, this is where BRT differs - it is meant to serve many purposes rather than one, so will run throughout the day with decent frequency.

The only reason the bus service is as limited as it is, is that we've never been asked whether we want to pay for really decent bus service. Once we are asked - just shy of two years from now, according to current plans - who knows what will happen?

[Eber Brock Ward]

i can't believe that south of the boulevard the bus would run on john r and cass. professor, have you read the AA/LPA document for the proposed brt line?

it's bad. brt becomes closer and closer to a bad investment as more and more creep works its way into the plan.

let's hope the RTa can save it in the enviro/engineering stages.

[professorscott]

i can't believe that south of the boulevard the bus would run on john r and cass. professor, have you read the AA/LPA document for the proposed brt line?

it's bad. brt becomes closer and closer to a bad investment as more and more creep works its way into the plan.

let's hope the RTa can save it in the enviro/engineering stages.

Yep, and I agree with you. I'm less concerned with the John R and Cass alignment - it's not making many stops in that area anyhow - and more concerned that it intentionally does not serve the heart of the downtown area.

Hopefully Mr. Ford will see the inanity of bypassing downtown in order to serve the transit center, which is not where commuters from the north are headed. [[For example, most DDOT 53 bus trips and all SMART 450/460 trips that go into the heart of Detroit serve downtown and not RPTC.)

I have no hope that the consultants will veer from the path they have chosen unless pushed.

[Hypestyles]

The only reason the bus service is as limited as it is, is that we've never been asked whether we want to pay for really decent bus service. Once we are asked - just shy of two years from now, according to current plans - who knows what will happen?

tea party and NIMBY sentiments will rule the roost again in 2016.. people will vote no on funding it.. there may even be a bill crafted to rescind the RTA entirely.. wait..

[Gpwrangler]

tea party and NIMBY sentiments will rule the roost again in 2016.. people will vote no on funding it.. there may even be a bill crafted to rescind the RTA entirely.. wait..

I saw one of the damn buses run a red light at high speed in midtown tonight. Narrowly missed wiping out a car. They just lost my support.

[professorscott]

I saw one of the damn buses run a red light at high speed in midtown tonight. Narrowly missed wiping out a car. They just lost my support.

Hm. GP, I think you are reacting a little harshly, but we'll see. First of all, a weekend night in midtown so it has to be a DDOT bus, so my expectations are already going to be pretty low.

Now, was it what people in most cities would consider running a red light: the bus went into the intersection as, or just after, the light turned red? Or was it a Detroit running of the light: the light had been red long enough to listen to the entire song Stairway to Heaven and then the bus ran it?

We can't be too surprised, if the former. After all, this is the city where they feel compelled to post signs all over the place reminding motorists what the red light is supposed to mean. If the latter, any time you see that make a note of the bus number [[the actual four digit number painted on the side of the bus) and call it into DDOT. Nothing may come of that; DDOT has a frightfully sparse supervisory staff now, but at least you're doing your civic duty.

By the way, who is the "they" that just lost your support? The RTA? The RTA owns or controls exactly zero buses and zero drivers. DDOT you only support if you pay taxes in Detroit [[and good luck not paying taxes) or ride the bus; otherwise you already aren't supporting them and there's nothing for them to lose. SMART used to send drivers into Detroit who could then choose to run red lights, but now that's cut back to rush hour.

[Honky Tonk]

I heard they're adding a cowcatcher to the front of the blight rail.

[Gpwrangler]

Hm. GP, I think you are reacting a little harshly, but we'll see. First of all, a weekend night in midtown so it has to be a DDOT bus, so my expectations are already going to be pretty low.

Now, was it what people in most cities would consider running a red light: the bus went into the intersection as, or just after, the light turned red? Or was it a Detroit running of the light: the light had been red long enough to listen to the entire song Stairway to Heaven and then the bus ran it?

We can't be too surprised, if the former. After all, this is the city where they feel compelled to post signs all over the place reminding motorists what the red light is supposed to mean. If the latter, any time you see that make a note of the bus number [[the actual four digit number painted on the side of the bus) and call it into DDOT. Nothing may come of that; DDOT has a frightfully sparse supervisory staff now, but at least you're doing your civic duty.

By the way, who is the "they" that just lost your support? The RTA? The RTA owns or controls exactly zero buses and zero drivers. DDOT you only support if you pay taxes in Detroit [[and good luck not paying taxes) or ride the bus; otherwise you already aren't supporting them and there's nothing for them to lose. SMART used to send drivers into Detroit who could then choose to run red lights, but now that's cut back to rush hour.

We were stopped at the light. The opposing light was not even yellow. He went through at speed. I know better than call it in; they could give two shits. Buses have killed at least 3 people this year. At least one was a vehicle rear ended while stopped at a signal. I've had it with them. I've had them tailgate me, hitting the air brakes every few seconds because the would like to do 50 on Mack and run the next light. Not going to happen.

Saw the GP cops had one stopped the other day. Good start.

[casscorridor]

Woodward streetcar moves to center lane and continues up to Royal Oak. Keep it the same line to avoid too much transferring and redundancy, even though higher capacity streetcar or heavy rail would obviously be more exciting.

The streetcar should also be expanded east and west via Jefferson Ave and Michigan Ave to Grosse Pointe and Dearborn respectively.

Then we need transportation to the airport, probably via commuter rail, and on that note might as well push it to Ann Arbor. The fare needs to be cheap though, like $5 or under.

Commuter rail will then have to be expanded deep into the metropolitan area, so there is easy public transit [[non bus) to the city from every direction.

Jobs, people, investment will follow. And the benefits will be widespread across the region.

It really is as simple as that. Funding it will have to come from the state or a regional authority with the power to tax to fund rail. This, of course, is the complicated part.