Detroit Public Transportation: 2014 and beyond.

[brizee]

Gratiot and Woodward could see express services as early as this July.

Joint effort between SMART and DDOT.

Won't take a dump on a seemingly good idea. Though I will say it shouldn't fucking feel like wisdom teeth removal for something so basic.

[Junjie]

Gratiot and Woodward could see express services as early as this July.

Joint effort between SMART and DDOT.

Won't take a dump on a seemingly good idea. Though I will say it shouldn't fucking feel like wisdom teeth removal for something so basic.

Good news and glad to see it. As you say, just get these obvious things done. Show some progress.

[ABetterDetroit]

The RTA is going to put something on the ballot this fall [[millage, auto registration hike, or something else). Vote yes and there's your funding.

[[Although I completely understand wanting to wait until you actually see how much the funding will cost before you decide how to vote).

I will vote yes on any tax increase that improves the lives of the most impoverished children/people in this state for the reason that I would like to leave this state as a tax payer in better shape then when I started paying taxes here and public transportation is included in that goal.

High and unequal Property taxes or Rent taxes, in my mind, only make matters much worse for those who cannot afford them. How many tens of thousands of people need to lose there homes to investors before this is understood? Keep plowing under farm fields to build more new homes in the outer rings while we continue to try to tear them down as fast as we can in the core? Bad and failing school districts? Blight, worthless property and falling property values in large swaths of area?

The thing that seems to be missed is that the most upscale towns will happily vote to raise a millage for shiny new fire trucks, more police, local parks etc... simply because they can afford it. The incomes will support the increase easily and it keeps their little havens nice and exclusive. This is nowhere near the truth in the most economically challenged communities. They are a health crisis, job loss or just plain getting old away from losing their homes to the county for unpaid rent tax.

Anything else has to be explored in my opinion. Changing state law so regional sales tax or income tax can be raised for example. I would quickly vote for that no problem.

[brizee]

http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...ront/79293830/

[dtowncitylover]

http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...ront/79293830/

Is anyone surprised?

[cramerro]

If and when the RTA is in a position that it funds and operates local bus systems, either directly or indirectly, the day that happens is the day that opt-out ends. There is absolutely no provision in the state laws that created the RTA for any municipal-level decision as to whether to participate.

So the first step is to give the RTA money and teeth, so it can put this into effect.

Your bus route extension ideas are excellent, and just the beginning. I would envision an entire restructuring of all the routes, based on regional needs and not the current parochialism [[Detroit vs. everybody else) and trick-routing around the huge opt-out holes [[Livonia, Rochester) in the system.

There is a flaw with this concept - a critical one that must be understood to avoid disaster. The RTA's millage will NOT be a replacement tax. This should be obvious but the discussion has been framed too many times that, "the RTA will END the OPT-OUT problem."

Let's say the RTA asks for 1.0 Millage. SMART is currently at 1.0. Simple math:

1.0 + 1.0 - 1.0 = STILL 1.0.

SMART + RTA - SMART = S.O.S.

Yes, you're adding 1.0 from current OPT-outs and the City of Detroit, but the net change is not the phase shift that you're anticipating.

The RTA's millage, if it's anything less than 2.0, is only meant to supplement and enhance the region's transit. It does not replace the funding of SMART, and certainly not DDOT... so those underlying systems and all of their parochial issues have to stay in place, relatively unchanged.

Without the current systems and funding [[SMART and DDOT, SMART millage and DDOT City General Fund Budget) the RTA would result in LOWER quality of transit for the region, plain and simple. The RTA will be able to invest some of their proceeds in extending routes into SMART's opt-outs, into the City, into rural Washtenaw... but they are extending and supplementing. That doesn't even take into account paratransit/demand response services, on which SMART and to a lesser extent DDOT provide a TON of trips.

Most of the RTA revenue has to [[and should) go into new, additional, extra services and systems to IMPROVE the regional level of transit, not reshuffle the status quo. Disagree, discuss, debate, but do not ignore.

[casscorridor]

Additional money could also boost the frequency of buses, from every 65 minutes on Gratiot and every 70-75 minutes on Woodward to 45-55 minute intervals.

This has to be a joke. Seriously the Detroit region is going nowhere with this sort of thinking, it's essentially sabotage. Buses need to come AT LEAST every 15 minutes for anyone to ride them.

[casscorridor]

Transit advocate Ruth Johnson, assistant director of Transportation Riders United, offered initial praise for the project.
"I'm excited. I feel this is the beginning of the realization of the promise of the RTA,"

And this is what so called "transit advocates" are saying about a project that delivers 75 minute frequency! Are they delusional? Or have they just never left Michigan? Stop drinking the kool-aid!!!

[ABetterDetroit]

There is a flaw with this concept - a critical one that must be understood to avoid disaster. The RTA's millage will NOT be a replacement tax. This should be obvious but the discussion has been framed too many times that, "the RTA will END the OPT-OUT problem."

Let's say the RTA asks for 1.0 Millage. SMART is currently at 1.0. Simple math:

1.0 + 1.0 - 1.0 = STILL 1.0.

SMART + RTA - SMART = S.O.S.

Yes, you're adding 1.0 from current OPT-outs and the City of Detroit, but the net change is not the phase shift that you're anticipating.

The RTA's millage, if it's anything less than 2.0, is only meant to supplement and enhance the region's transit. It does not replace the funding of SMART, and certainly not DDOT... so those underlying systems and all of their parochial issues have to stay in place, relatively unchanged.

Without the current systems and funding [[SMART and DDOT, SMART millage and DDOT City General Fund Budget) the RTA would result in LOWER quality of transit for the region, plain and simple. The RTA will be able to invest some of their proceeds in extending routes into SMART's opt-outs, into the City, into rural Washtenaw... but they are extending and supplementing. That doesn't even take into account paratransit/demand response services, on which SMART and to a lesser extent DDOT provide a TON of trips.

Most of the RTA revenue has to [[and should) go into new, additional, extra services and systems to IMPROVE the regional level of transit, not reshuffle the status quo. Disagree, discuss, debate, but do not ignore.

Raising the tax on rent in the city of Detroit is like picking out new drapes when the house is on fire. The neighborhoods are a mess with bad schools, blight and a lack of jobs with people facing eviction for unpaid property taxes.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...meowner-dreams

The list of articles like this is endless when you google "Detroit property taxes" yet some think the best way to help is raise them even more?

[brizee]

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...lage/80861834/


A Traverse City Republican is trying to limit the amount of money the Detroit RTA is able to ask voters to raise for itself.




Yeah.

[ABetterDetroit]

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...lage/80861834/


A Traverse City Republican is trying to limit the amount of money the Detroit RTA is able to ask voters to raise for itself.




Yeah.

Maybe because someone considered how economically challenged city's are that have extremely high property tax rates in this state and how high the cost is for all involved to allow them to continue to destroy property values, ruin school districts and throw people out of there homes just for the sake of every idea someone wants to fund. A smart idea is not exclusive to any political party.

Traverse City 37.47 mills

Detroit 69.48

Tax the income not the rent.

https://treas-secure.state.mi.us/pte...TEstimator.asp

[MSUguy]

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...art_river_home

[Junjie]

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...art_river_home

Was anyone able to attend the info session in the Whitney building?

That's a pretty map. Hope it gets done and that people come out to support it in the fall. But I am very curious to hear what the actual planned level of service is. E.g. dedicated lanes and thus potentially real rapid transit? Or just painted buses and nice stops? [[Edit: just watched the promo video at the link and they show dedicated lanes essentially everywhere but downtown Ann Arbor... that's a good sign anyway.)

Interesting bone being thrown to Washtenaw with the Ann Arbor-Ypsi line, wasn't expecting that. Ann Arbor and UM are also talking about a light rail line running north-south through the city from Plymouth Road through north campus, med campus, central campus/downtown, and then down State Street.

[dtowncitylover]

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...art_river_home

Also, can I just point out the paltry headline? TRANSIT GROUP? TRU is a transit group. RTA is a government agency! Not just some group.

[casscorridor]

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...art_river_home

Nice map and video. But I would say we at least some of the plan should strive toward rail rather than bus. Especially the Michigan and Woodward routes. With all that infrastructure money making a bus "rapid" you might as well just put in some tracks and have PROPER transit. Good effort at promoting a vision of what a system could look like though.

[dtowncitylover]

Nice map and video. But I would say we at least some of the plan should strive toward rail rather than bus. Especially the Michigan and Woodward routes. With all that infrastructure money making a bus "rapid" you might as well just put in some tracks and have PROPER transit. Good effort at promoting a vision of what a system could look like though.

Not to sound cynical [[but aren't most of us anyway?), it reminded me of when DDOT's DTOGS plan came out with their video [[and Channel 7 couldn't stop using it even when it switched to the streetcar ).

Another note, the RTA legislation was written in a way that BRT was basically the only form of rapid transit, beside commuter rail, that could be used by the RTA. Despite the fact we needed an RTA, I think TRU should've pushed against this provision.

[Junjie]

Nice map and video. But I would say we at least some of the plan should strive toward rail rather than bus. Especially the Michigan and Woodward routes. With all that infrastructure money making a bus "rapid" you might as well just put in some tracks and have PROPER transit. Good effort at promoting a vision of what a system could look like though.

Just to expand a bit on this and what dtowncitylover said, the RTA was set up with the stipulation that the board [[2 Wayne, 2 Macomb, 2 Oakland, 2 Washtenaw, 1 Detroit, 1 governor-appointed) has to unanimously agree in order to implement rapid rail transit but only needs majority approval for buses. The plan was set a long time ago to exclude rail.

At the same time, LA for example is planning [[if their own funding measure passes this fall) to convert one of their BRT lines to light rail [[orange line). If the stations etc. are designed correctly and it has dedicated right-of-way, it can be done in future to increase capacity.

Edit:

Also, the RTA survey asked about preferences for downtown routing [[stop at People Mover and ask people to transfer, have all the lines meet up downtown somewhere etc.) I know this is outside the realm of possibility, but if we were serious about the long term then an underground terminal under Campus Martius/Cadillac Square would be a really obvious choice, allow easy transfers, and also take the vehicles off of the roads where they narrow downtown. By my estimate this would require about 1.3-1.5 total miles of tunneling on Woodward, Michigan and Gratiot. But yeah, I know that's total fantasy and they'll just be sitting in traffic because 2 dedicated lanes on a 4-lane road is politically hard.

[Danny]

Nice map and video. But I would say we at least some of the plan should strive toward rail rather than bus. Especially the Michigan and Woodward routes. With all that infrastructure money making a bus "rapid" you might as well just put in some tracks and have PROPER transit. Good effort at promoting a vision of what a system could look like though.

To the democrats, a better way to get people to work, shop and visit their friends and family.

To the Republicans, we don't want to pay for a bus to nowhere, like the People Mover and M1-light rail.

[professorscott]

the RTA legislation was written in a way that BRT was basically the only form of rapid transit, beside commuter rail, that could be used by the RTA. Despite the fact we needed an RTA, I think TRU should've pushed against this provision.

TRU was certainly aware, as I was at the time, that any successful push against the way the legislation was written - that, as you say, it almost requires BRT - would have doomed the legislative package entirely.

What we got, given who was on the legislature then, is the most we could have got. And if we didn't get it then, it wasn't likely to come up again for quite a long time.

[mtburb]

Dunno if this is related to this topic, but I have just spent several hours on creating this map of all transit systems in southeastern Michigan, except the one operated by the University of Michigan. This offers an interesting comparison between areas served by each route of each system and to point out major gaps in the current system. Tell me what you think, especially if you find any errors. Best viewed on a computer or a tablet.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?m...p8&usp=sharing

[professorscott]

Dunno if this is related to this topic, but I have just spent several hours on creating this map of all transit systems in southeastern Michigan, except the one operated by the University of Michigan. This offers an interesting comparison between areas served by each route of each system and to point out major gaps in the current system. Tell me what you think, especially if you find any errors.

That's very well done and appears to have been quite an effort. Thanks for doing that. It particularly shows the astonishingly large regions, even within the immediate metro area [[let's say, within 10 miles of the Detroit city limits) where there is no transit whatever. It bears remembering that now, many of the suburban routes and even those in the city run at terribly widely spaced intervals - but at least they exist where they do.

[Junjie]

Dunno if this is related to this topic, but I have just spent several hours on creating this map of all transit systems in southeastern Michigan, except the one operated by the University of Michigan. This offers an interesting comparison between areas served by each route of each system and to point out major gaps in the current system. Tell me what you think, especially if you find any errors. Best viewed on a computer or a tablet.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?m...p8&usp=sharing

A bit late but wanted to second the "thank you" for putting this together. A lot of work I'm sure and very useful.

[royce]

I applaud the effort by the RTA. However, in the video it clearly shows that dedicated parking lanes along Michigan and Gratiot avenues would be eliminated. I have a problem with this. This is the same problem I have with the M1-Rail along the southbound lanes of Woodward. For the stop in Corktown, the dedicated parking lanes are eliminated for stations right in front of the major businesses in that area, like Slow's. It is already difficult to find parking in that area. Also in the video it shows how bike lanes replace the parking lanes. So the thought at the RTA is, "Let's make it more inconvenient for the thousands of daily car drivers along these BRT routes to find parking, but let's make sure that the few handfuls of bike riders have a dedicated riding lane." In addition, the station at Gratiot/Eastern Market eliminates parking for many shoppers who go to the Gratiot Central Market.

Regarding both the Corktown and Gratiot stations, wouldn't it be less inconvenient to put the stations a half a block down [[in front of Roosevelt Park in Corktown and the block west of Russell in Eastern Market? Parking lanes were deemed at some point in modern city history to be very important to businesses whose customers drove cars. Weren't parking meters introduced so that customers could get in and out of businesses in a reasonable time so that the next group of customers could have a chance to shop? Have transit enthusiasts forgotten about this?

Finally, parked cars act as buffers for people standing or walking along sidewalks. It is very unnerving to be on a sidewalk of a major street when cars are whizzing by you at 35-50 miles an hour. No one wants to eat at an outside cafe when this takes place as well. What's funny to me is that when Detroit had streetcars, there still were dedicated parking lanes along the major thoroughfares. Again, why are transit enthusiasts forgetting all this?

BTW, the set-up in Dearborn where cars make left turns in a lane to the right of the dedicated BRT lane is simply scary. And where a median is concerned [[Ferndale), why bother having the BRT lane cut through the median? Cars still have to make Michigan lefts. Why not simply make the lane next to the median the dedicated BRT lane?

[dtowncitylover]

I applaud the effort by the RTA. However, in the video it clearly shows that dedicated parking lanes along Michigan and Gratiot avenues would be eliminated. I have a problem with this. This is the same problem I have with the M1-Rail along the southbound lanes of Woodward. For the stop in Corktown, the dedicated parking lanes are eliminated for stations right in front of the major businesses in that area, like Slow's. It is already difficult to find parking in that area. Also in the video it shows how bike lanes replace the parking lanes. So the thought at the RTA is, "Let's make it more inconvenient for the thousands of daily car drivers along these BRT routes to find parking, but let's make sure that the few handfuls of bike riders have a dedicated riding lane." In addition, the station at Gratiot/Eastern Market eliminates parking for many shoppers who go to the Gratiot Central Market.

Regarding both the Corktown and Gratiot stations, wouldn't it be less inconvenient to put the stations a half a block down [[in front of Roosevelt Park in Corktown and the block west of Russell in Eastern Market? Parking lanes were deemed at some point in modern city history to be very important to businesses whose customers drove cars. Weren't parking meters introduced so that customers could get in and out of businesses in a reasonable time so that the next group of customers could have a chance to shop? Have transit enthusiasts forgotten about this?

Finally, parked cars act as buffers for people standing or walking along sidewalks. It is very unnerving to be on a sidewalk of a major street when cars are whizzing by you at 35-50 miles an hour. No one wants to eat at an outside cafe when this takes place as well. What's funny to me is that when Detroit had streetcars, there still were dedicated parking lanes along the major thoroughfares. Again, why are transit enthusiasts forgetting all this?

BTW, the set-up in Dearborn where cars make left turns in a lane to the right of the dedicated BRT lane is simply scary. And where a median is concerned [[Ferndale), why bother having the BRT lane cut through the median? Cars still have to make Michigan lefts. Why not simply make the lane next to the median the dedicated BRT lane?

Seriously? On street parking? Many urban cores don't have on street parking on many streets. Whoever is doing 50 mph on Woodward between CM and Grand Boulevard is nuts because it would feel like driving through a battlefield. Have fun fixing those tires! I walk on my suburban thoroughfare all the time with cars doing 30-35 mph and never batted an eye.

This is Detroit's problem is that were are still worrying about the car when we need to rebuild our city around a human not a car. Detroit needs to stop being designed for the Troy, Canton, or Novi visitor and be built for those that live there!

[Farwell]

Seriously? On street parking? Many urban cores don't have on street parking on many streets. Whoever is doing 50 mph on Woodward between CM and Grand Boulevard is nuts because it would feel like driving through a battlefield. Have fun fixing those tires! I walk on my suburban thoroughfare all the time with cars doing 30-35 mph and never batted an eye.

This is Detroit's problem is that were are still worrying about the car when we need to rebuild our city around a human not a car. Detroit needs to stop being designed for the Troy, Canton, or Novi visitor and be built for those that live there!

Totally agree. Just don't ask us visitors to pay for it Design and build for you...pay by you [[or those private entrepreneurs willing to risk their dime).