About Hart Plaza...

[royce]

I agree that tearing down the Chene Park Amphitheatre would be a gross waste of money, especially since the 1970s era [[or was that 1980s era?) 3,000 seat amphitheatre was torn down to rebuild the hill into a larger 5,000 seat amphitheatre on the same site in the 1990s. Also, noise from the existing amphitheatre is a non-issue, since people living in the area knew what they were moving into, plus those very few concerts held there are done by 10PM or 11PM.

Gistok, I respectfully disagree with your viewpoint on Hart Plaza. If you think about it, an amphitheater at Hart Plaza allows for residential development near Chene Park, by eliminating the large gravel parking lot at Chene Park. A large amphitheater at Hart Plaza makes more sense because it is downtown and there are many more parking options.

I've enjoyed going to concerts at Chene Park, but this pass summer the amphitheater was showing its age. It will take millions to refurbish it. It will take millions to build a new one at Hart Plaza. I'd rather spend the money building a new one at Hart Plaza.

[royce]

Overall, Hart Plaza no longer works because Campus Martius Park has replaced it. CP is now the focal point of downtown activity. I disagree that it needs more grass. If you look around, along the entire northern and southern sections of Hart Plaza, you will find grass. When there is a major event like the Jazz Festival, with its large crowds and its vendors taking up necessary space, the concrete areas are necessary.

A hotel or residential apartment/condo on the Ford Auditorium site, might help increase activity in Hart Plaza during non-event days, but other than that I don't see a whole lot that you can do with it now that Campus Martius is downtown's "meeting place."

A radical idea that I've had would be to convert Hart Plaza into a downtown beach. Again, put some hotel/residential around it and you could have a cool spot in the summer. BTW, wasn't Hart Plaza a hill and a beach when Cadillac landed in Detroit?

[DetroitPlanner]

A radical idea that I've had would be to convert Hart Plaza into a downtown beach. Again, put some hotel/residential around it and you could have a cool spot in the summer. BTW, wasn't Hart Plaza a hill and a beach when Cadillac landed in Detroit?

The water there is quite deep, the current quite strong, and it is downriver from the Bates Outfall. It is still a CSO [[an improved one, but still puts poop in the water. Probably not a good idea to allow swimming there.

"The Bates Street Outfall and Riverwalk Development includes the repair of the City of Detroit’s Combined Sewage Outflow [[CSO) system at Bates Street and the construction of a 220 foot walkway atop the system. The project contributes significantly to the revitalization of Detroit in two critical ways: Repair of the outfall ensures efficient operation of the City’s sewerage system, preventing sewage backups from polluting the Detroit River. The walkway connects the existing riverfront walkways on the east and west of the CSO, bridging the gap and permitting the public to walk from Joe Louis Arena to the GM Headquarters’ promenade."
https://www.detroitmi.gov/Department...sArticleId=189

[stasu1213]

Few people uses Hart Plaza due to the lack of events that are being held there. Many office workers had walk down to Hart Plaza during their lunch breaks during the 80s and early 90s due to the weekly ethnic festivals that were being held there. That is what Hart Plaza was built for. Kennedy Square, the Kern Block, and Grand Circus Park held venues before Hart Plaza was built. Kennedy Square once had ice skating in the winter months. The Kern Block held free concerts. Hart Plaza had pulled all of the events from the other places. Campus Martius had pulled some of the remaining events from Hart Plaza saving the Techno and Jazz Festivals. I agree that the plaza need a make over. The function of Hart Plaza was to handle the wear and tear that free events and it's participants gives it. The place is still intact, saving a few cracks, after more than 30 years. Maybe it could stay like it is but be a destination and docking for the small cruise ships that will come to Detroit in the future

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Overall, Hart Plaza no longer works because Campus Martius Park has replaced it

But HP was pretty empty and dead before CMP opened. I think HP needs to be better integrated into the Riverwalk, have more events booked, encourage more vendors [[who would attract people to hang out and eat), and it really needs more park in the plaza [[grass, trees, flowers, benches, tables, etc).

[mikeg19]

Millennium Park 24.5 acres, Hart Plaza 14 acres. 66% larger. [[Milliken State Park - created more or less the same time as MP - is over 30 acres) As readers here may already know, there are two things in Chicago that I don't think have a very high opinion of - the Soldier Field tumor and Millennium Park. Pritzker Pavilion - more Gehry garbage. The "cloud gate"? ooooo it's shiny! like a chrome-plated jelly belly. Most over-rated piece of public art in the world. When Hart Plaza was first built 30 years before MP, it was heralded by all kinds of people in the art and landscape world. Warhol called it the best public space in the country.

Yes, Hart Plaza needs an overhaul. Chicago built MP with funding from AT&T. Maybe DG could pony up the funds to re-work Hart Plaza.

I didn't really look up any acreage, I threw that out there. But although I agree with you in that MP is no work of art, it's a great place to congregate and host events. And yes, I think we've all seen the picture of the family at "the bean", but lets be honest, how many people do you see posting a picture of them in front of the fountain at Hart Plaza? About 0. As much as I don't care for the design of MP, it still manages to draw considerable amounts of people to it, whether it be residents or tourists.


One thing we do wholeheartedly agree on though - Gehry architecture is complete crap. When I started taking design classes in college I though "Wow. What a visionary." Then after 20 minutes I came to my senses and realized it was crap....

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Millennium Park may or may not have design merits, according to one's own opinions. But it has a distinct advantage of having vastly more foot traffic, both locals and visitors, than Hart Plaza. Parks are communal gathering spots. Even if you're going to a park to read a book alone, you want to be in a vibrant, busy park [[as you seek out a quiet spot). Hart Plaza lacks that density of people in the immediate surrounding area.

As for Gehry architecture, I'm ambivalent except to note that has proven very expensive to both build and maintain. He is therefore not worth even considering for Detroit. Besides, HP doesn't need architects, it needs visitors.

I should also add that one lesson about public parks [[not including neighborhood playgrounds) is that they always need to be maintained, improved, and reinvented. Hart Plaza, when I was a kid, was busy. I attended many festivals there. My Mom worked at the City-County building and we would get a hot dog and eat lunch in the park. I remember running through the water at the Dodge Fountain with lots of other kids. It can work again.

[DetroitPlanner]

I have always like Gehry's work, but as Mikey said it is expensive to produce and to maintain. Much like FLLW's work. But it does make you stop and look it it; compare it to its surroundings. Cause you to think.

If what we want to do is an amphitheater, why not work at making the existing ones better?

If what we want are people to gather, then maybe the Food trucks should be there instead of at Cadillac Square? Maybe we should have not abandoned the ice skating rink? Maybe we should have more festivals?

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

If what we want are people to gather, then maybe the Food trucks should be there instead of at Cadillac Square? Maybe we should have not abandoned the ice skating rink? Maybe we should have more festivals?

Those are all good ideas. There is no single, magical thing that will bring the crowds back to HP. More stuff needs to happen there. I think the food trucks should line-up wherever they can do business. I just think the city should make it cheap and easy for them to do business in and around HP.

As for the amphitheater, I don't think Detroit will ever have a Pine Knob-esque venue with big, regular crowds. Chene Park's isn't used all that frequently; I don't think one in Hart Plaza would be either. Additionally, it is daytime crowds that are more important to the success [[as defined by lots of people using it) of the park. Amphitheatres are seasonal and late-evening venues primarily. I would actually not mind getting rid of Chene Park's without moving it anywhere else. The Parks Dept or Riverfront Conservancy should own and operate portable stages and sound systems to allow for flexibilty in scheduling events at various places.

One idea I like for somewhere in Hart Plaza or nearby: a mini golf course. 27 holes. Open weekends in spring and fall, and every day Memorial Day to Labor Day. Love mini golf. Good family activity and a revenue raiser for the Parks Dept.

[DetroitPlanner]

One idea I like for somewhere in Hart Plaza or nearby: a mini golf course. 27 holes. Open weekends in spring and fall, and every day Memorial Day to Labor Day. Love mini golf. Good family activity and a revenue raiser for the Parks Dept.

Perhaps the Rec Dept should work with a concessionaire to run it? Would you be interested in proposing/managing one?

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Oh, absolutely somebody should be hired to run it! I remember in NY the Off-Track Betting parlors, run by the government, lost money. The only bookies ever to fail to make a profit! I would consider bidding to run a small food/bev operation, but I know nothing about developing or running a minigolf course, other than the fact I like to play.

[downtownguy]

Chene Park's isn't used all that frequently; I don't think one in Hart Plaza would be either.

Chene Park had 27 public events over its 3 month 2013 season. Plus they host many other private events, including a lot of school graduations. That's better than 2 events a week on average.

http://cheneparkdetroit.com/wp-conte...neschedule.pdf

I've never been fond of the harshness of all the granite and cement in Hart Plaza, but in fairness, most other cities' town squares are not landscaped all that much either. In a way, and prior to Campus Martuis' rebirth, Hart Plaza was our town square. In the 70s, 80s and 90s, it was a common destination for downtown office workers on their lunch break.

I'm with DP. I think Hart Plaza can be adapted to attract more people . As nice as Campus Martius is, you can't match the capacity and variety of stages Hart Plaza can mount for something like the jazz festival or tech festival.

Geographically, it's always been a bit out of the way thanks to the width of Jefferson Avenue. But with the increased interest in the Riverwalk, there are a lot more people down there now.

I don't know why it was said that nobody has their picture taken by the fountain. I often see folks posing by it.

Hart Plaza is showing it's age, though. The granite pavers are overdue for some maintenance. I wonder if the Riverfront Conservancy has ever considered annexing Hart Plaza? They do a good job maintaining and patrolling the Riverwalk. Perhaps spinning it off from the city would give it some new life. After all, much of the success of Campus Martius, I would argue, is because it is not managed or maintained by the city.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Hart Plaza is showing it's age, though. The granite pavers are overdue for some maintenance. I wonder if the Riverfront Conservancy has ever considered annexing Hart Plaza? They do a good job maintaining and patrolling the Riverwalk. Perhaps spinning it off from the city would give it some new life. After all, much of the success of Campus Martius, I would argue, is because it is not managed or maintained by the city.

I love the idea of spinning off HP from the city. It would be a very large chunk for the Riverfront Conservancy to bite off, though. Especially in light of the ongoing fundraising for the extension of the RiverWalk.

In NY, Bryant Park is the nicest and busiest park in the city, at least per square foot. It has very frequent concerts and movies. Ice rink in the winter. Lots of tables & chairs. Beautiful maintained lawn and wonderful shrubbery and trees breaking up the urban landscape. Several permanent food/bev establishments, and lots of vendors surrounding it. Great urban space. Although owned by the city, it is entirely maintained and operated by the Bryant Park Conservancy, a privately funded not for profit.

The benefits of having a non-government entity run a park are many. Not the least of which is that changes and innovations can happen rapidly and skip all sorts of bureaucratic delays. But merely operating the park will take a lot of money; extensive renovations will be a real fundraising challenge, regardless of whoever runs it.

[rb336]

I don't know why it was said that nobody has their picture taken by the fountain. I often see folks posing by it.

Lately I have seen more pictures taken under Transcending​ than Dodge Fountain

[drjeff]

If somebody is going to take photos near landmarks in that area they will be near the fist or spirit of Detroit. The fountain is interesting but not really a major Detroit landmark.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

If somebody is going to take photos near landmarks in that area they will be near the fist or spirit of Detroit. The fountain is interesting but not really a major Detroit landmark.

I disagree. I think Spirit is the #1 symbol, but the fountain would be up there with anything else.