Austin Points The Way: More Freeways AREN'T the Answer to Traffic

[313WX]

See my comments above. Thanx for the tip.

Yes, I see your comment. My next question is why didn't you take the alternate routes? Even if coming from the suburbs, you could have gotten off the freeway and taken one of the surface streets the rest of the way before getting downtown. Detroit after all is blessed with a very comprehensive street grid, something many cities lack today.

BTW, sitting in traffic for 45 minutes is pretty typical for people in a *normal* big city on a *normal* day. If anything, we're spoiled rotten in that regard.

[Bham1982]

Yes, I see your comment. My next question is why didn't you take the alternate routes? Even if coming from the suburbs, you could have gotten off the freeway and taken one of the surface streets the rest of the way before getting downtown. Detroit after all is blessed with a very comprehensive street grid, something many cities lack today.

BTW, sitting in traffic for 45 minutes is pretty typical for people in a *normal* big city on a *normal* day. If anything, we're spoiled rotten in that regard.

Why would someone prefer to travel long distances down extremely slow surface streets with all the lights? And why would the traffic ills of other cities be a mitigating factor?

[313WX]

When I lived in Eastpointe, I always took Gratiot into Detroit.[/COLOR]

I notice a lot of commuters from Southern Macomb County do the same [[the ones that aren't afraid of the crime and poverty along Gratiot jumping out and attaching to their moving vehicles like giant amoebas). It's usually a much faster alternative to I-94. Lately, Gratiot has started to get quite congested during the morning rush hour around Conner, and it's bumper-to-bumper for much of Gratiot's length.

[313WX]

Why would someone prefer to travel long distances down extremely slow surface streets with all the lights? And why would the traffic ills of other cities be a mitigating factor?

Well, there's driving down streets such as Grand River which are virtually empty during the middle of the weekday and POSSIBLY being caught by a few 30 second lights, or there's sitting in traffic for 45 minutes on a freeway everyone wants to jam pack themselves on.

[gazhekwe]

I love that you can get almost anywhere in metro Detroit without getting into snarly traffic in rush hour on the freeways or Telegraph. Some of the major intersections can be problematic in rush hour but most places you can cut into the neighborhood and cruise right past the problems.

[Bham1982]

Well, there's driving down streets such as Grand River which are virtually empty during the middle of the weekday and POSSIBLY being caught by a few 30 second lights, or there's sitting in traffic for 45 minutes on a freeway everyone wants to jam pack themselves on.

I don't know Grand River well, but Woodward is extremely slow, with tons of lights, and the only real alternative to I-75.

[Wesley Mouch]

Austin has only one interstate running through town not only one freeway. There are many freeways and toll ways that are up to interstate standards, but they can't keep up with the growth. Austin's traffic is often nightmarish because the population has been increasing by about 5,000-6,000 a month. Austin is model city for just about everything except anything related to transportation.

Based on my last few visits back to Michigan I would say any money available for roads should go for maintenance over capacity. Some of the freeways are in horrible condition.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that this is nothing but a study. It doesn't make it true. Any city growing as fast as Austin will have traffic troubles.

I think the answer is to do everything right. Build good public transit. Build light rail where volume's right, and BRT elsewhere. Build good roads, too. And install freeway bypasses for trucks. Widen roads where they are bottlenecks. Do it all, and do it in a balanced way. I wouldn't put all my eggs in public transit basket any more than those who put all their eggs in more and more freeways.

[313WX]

I don't know Grand River well, but Woodward is extremely slow, with tons of lights, and the only real alternative to I-75.

I've driven Woodward many times during rush hour. It's no worse than how Woodward is in Oakland County, or the Woodward-Mack-I-75 clusterfuck.

We all know the REAL reason many people [[not necessarily referring to you or Honky Tonk) prefer not to take these alternate routes.

[Khorasaurus]

This seems pretty simple. The freeways are the best way to get around the region, unless they are backed up. If they are backed up, it is silly to sit on the freeway and get angry rather than exit and take surface streets. Traffic lights are nothing compared to a freeway traffic jam.

Also, the freeways around here back up at predictable times in predictable places. It's really not that hard to avoid getting caught in traffic.

[GP For Life]

Expansion in Michigan was once necessary and possible. The Future is Contraction.

Plan accordingly.

Bingo. All these fruitcakes keep comparing Detroit, and/or the Detroit metro area, to growing areas and then saying: Look these places expanded their highways and now look at the traffic. Bam, induced demand!

We've been contracting and our road system is still screwed.

If induced demand could exceed marginal supply, then you'd see every company with cheap access to capital [[right now every investment-grade company) building toll roads. The ROIC would increase directly proportionally to capital invested.

Get me a whiteboard and get yourself a chair. I'll educate you mongoloids if it kills you.

[Novine]

"We've been contracting and our road system is still screwed."

The contraction of the CoD is irrelevant to traffic patterns on I-275.

[Bham1982]

I've driven Woodward many times during rush hour. It's no worse than how Woodward is in Oakland County, or the Woodward-Mack-I-75 clusterfuck.

This is obviously not true. Much slower speed limits [[35 instead of 50), and far more lights in Detroit as opposed to Oakland County. Also narrower, nondivided street and you tend to get stuck behind plodding busses.

Woodward [[for driving purposes) sucks south of 6 Mile [[and really is much slower anywhere south opf I-696 due to speed limits/lights).

[313WX]

This is obviously not true. Much slower speed limits [[35 instead of 50), and far more lights in Detroit as opposed to Oakland County. Also narrower, nondivided street and you tend to get stuck behind plodding busses.

Woodward [[for driving purposes) sucks south of 6 Mile [[and really is much slower anywhere south opf I-696 due to speed limits/lights).

If you say so...

[Honky Tonk]

Yes, I see your comment. My next question is why didn't you take the alternate routes? Even if coming from the suburbs, you could have gotten off the freeway and taken one of the surface streets the rest of the way before getting downtown. Detroit after all is blessed with a very comprehensive street grid, something many cities lack today.

BTW, sitting in traffic for 45 minutes is pretty typical for people in a *normal* big city on a *normal* day. If anything, we're spoiled rotten in that regard.

Ok, Here's the scenario. I didn't decide "Gee, a traffic jam. I'll just sit in it for 45 minutes". I know better then that, and I know Detroit streets better then that. My problem was once I got into it, [[took Lodge South, then I-75 North ramp, thinking I could get to I-375 South), there was nowhere to get off @. Had there been a Woodward exit, I would have taken that. All 3 Gratiot East exits had standing traffic, as did the right lane to get to I-375 South. Couple the Lion's game with the "usual" traffic jam from people getting off @ Lafayette for the Geektown Casino, things were impassable. There was no way you could see fom the Lodge to I-75 South on ramp what was going on until it was too late. They've added 2 stadiums, and a casino, but did nothing to alleviate traffic congestion or aid traffic flow. In fact, removing the Woodward exit ramp made things worse, IMO. Back to Novine, if the same setup was all Novi had for the Novi Mall/shopping area, I bet their customer base would drop off sharply. Being the only football and baseball teams in town, it's either put up or shut up.

[Novine]

One exit for 12 Oaks Mall and all of the surrounding retail. There's alternative routes that locals know but 90% of the mall traffic is coming from that one exit of I-96.

[Honky Tonk]

One exit for 12 Oaks Mall and all of the surrounding retail. There's alternative routes that locals know but 90% of the mall traffic is coming from that one exit of I-96.

If I recall correctly, [[and it's a possibility I'm not), it's a big exit, and the roads around that shopping area are wide too. The multi-lane roads help in whisking away those pesky shoppers to their destination. @ the interchange by the stadiums and Geektown, the entertainment sources have grown, but the roads have not.

[Hermod]

I love that you can get almost anywhere in metro Detroit without getting into snarly traffic in rush hour on the freeways or Telegraph. Some of the major intersections can be problematic in rush hour but most places you can cut into the neighborhood and cruise right past the problems.

Bingo! Traffic is like water. It seeks the path of least resistance. Most drivers are adept at seeking out shortcuts [[as measured in time). If a Costco opens up a few blocks from you and has a long light cycle to get in and your narrow residential street accesses the back of the COSTCO parking lot, be prepared to not be able to get out of your driveway during business hours. That is why the burbs have fortified themselves with winding streets, cul-de-sacs, and single entrances to subdivisions.

[downtownguy]

Woodward [[for driving purposes) sucks south of 6 Mile [[and really is much slower anywhere south opf I-696 due to speed limits/lights).

That's where I scoot over to Brush and/or John R. Been doing it for years.

[Novine]

" @ the interchange by the stadiums and Geektown, the entertainment sources have grown, but the roads have not.

Because you live in a city. Want suburban style roads? Move to the suburbs. If you want suburban style roads in the city, you have to destroy the elements that make it successful. So far, Detroit's done a pretty good job of that.

[313WX]

That's where I scoot over to Brush and/or John R. Been doing it for years.

Second and Third Avenue work too [[they are literally empty during the day).

[Novine]

Let's also remember that Detroit has a peak population of almost 2 million people in 1950. If the transportation systems of the day could handle that many people, I would say that the "improvements" over the years to that system have been a step backwards if they can't handle a couple of big events going on at the same time downtown.

[Wesley Mouch]

Bingo! Traffic is like water. ...

Sometimes, but not always. Often traffic is like elephants, trunk to tail. And one block over, the bypass might be empty. Habits matter a lot.

[Honky Tonk]

" @ the interchange by the stadiums and Geektown, the entertainment sources have grown, but the roads have not.

Because you live in a city. Want suburban style roads? Move to the suburbs. If you want suburban style roads in the city, you have to destroy the elements that make it successful. So far, Detroit's done a pretty good job of that.

No offense but your posts are making less sense as the thread grows. You're injecting things that aren't there. Good thing you live in Novi. Detroit would have taken your lunch money years ago.

[MotorCityTrikes]

I've had the opportunity to drive all over the country for business the past ten to twelve years and I can tell you Detroit may be a little wilder and faster but getting around is a dream compared to most other major cities.

[DetroitPlanner]

Austin still widens a lot of roads. Austin still builds a lot of brand new federal-aid highways. Click on road improvements to see all of them. http://www.austintexas.gov/GIS/CAMPOInteractiveMap/

Look at the number of federal-aid highways they had in 2010 then click on the 2035 network.

If you are looking for transit Nirvana, don't look here. There are no new roads in Southeast Michigan's 2040 plan. There is a new bridge though so there will be some things done to better connect it to I-75 and to Livernois.