What to replace Joe Louis Arena once demolished?

[gthomas]

The surface parking lot to the left of The Joe can be an addition of another "Rivard Plaza" concept, connecting the riverfront. The Joe site itself can be a residential tower with attach parking garage [[not expose to the riverfront) and with ground floor retail.

Remove M-10 from Michigan Ave south to riverfront for a boulevard, tear down the spiral tunnel/tube thingy and redesign the Joe Louis people mover station. Extend W. Jefferson to E. Jefferson..make it pedestrian friendly.



A mid-rise to 30-story residential tower will be a great addition to that area which is not-so..attractive. Similar to these:

[ghettopalmetto]

The Lodge already is a BLVD S of Michigan. Limited access sure, but it still counts as a blvd. How would you get Jefferson under Cobo with your proposal?

It's not really a boulevard, per se. There are no at-grade pedestrian crossings from the Joe Louis site to the rest of downtown.

As long as Cobo remains, you keep the "tunnel", because to do otherwise would require massive structural changes. Narrowing the right-of-way of the road, elimination of the exit/entrance ramps, and addition of at-grade crossings would go a long way toward reversing this part of downtown from automobile-oriented to pedestrian-oriented, allowing people to have greater access to the riverfront.

[GUSHI]

It's detroit, what about a strip club on the river, wet and wild in the "d" or how about a party store

[DetroitPlanner]

It's not really a boulevard, per se. There are no at-grade pedestrian crossings from the Joe Louis site to the rest of downtown.

As long as Cobo remains, you keep the "tunnel", because to do otherwise would require massive structural changes. Narrowing the right-of-way of the road, elimination of the exit/entrance ramps, and addition of at-grade crossings would go a long way toward reversing this part of downtown from automobile-oriented to pedestrian-oriented, allowing people to have greater access to the riverfront.

You have a romantic view of what constitutes a boulevard. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boulevard

A boulevard in its most simplest form means divided highway. Some can be very ugly, others can be quite striking.

[mikeg19]

There are things that the Joe site has working for it that most other places in Detroit don't.

1. Obviously the riverfront access/views. Anyone willing to pony up on the land for residential can add access to the water, although the Riverwalk might be in the way of that.

2. Being next to COBO is very attractive for a hotelier, although another hotel downtown might spell doom for them all.

3. The Joe Louis PM stop. I know, I know, everyone hates the PM, but if it ever tied into the M1 rail, that'd be pretty attractive.

Granted, you'll have to deal with the city if you try to buy the property, which is enough to make most developers throw up their hands and yell Fuck it, but that has got to be one of the most prime properties on the water besides the eastern riverwalk portion. I still think it'll be a COBO expansion/residential tower, but the way this city works, it might be a rubble pile until 2028.

[jsmyers]

DYes,

Long time no post...

My #1 thought on Cobo and Joe Louis:

Don't do anything without a solid, long-range plan that is integrated into plans for areas around it!

I've got a bunch of thoughts on what that plan should include. I'll put them in a handful of follow up posts. My crazy scheme include regional transit, helps high speed rail, and fixes the modernist mess in that location.

[jsmyers]

This isn't the first step in terms of construction, but it is the lynchpin:

Put a regional rail terminal station under Cobo where Larned and the Cobo Center Parking Garage currently is.

Where Larned Street currently pops up from under Cobo would become a pedestrian ramp to the platform level. Two island platforms and 4 tracks would suffice if trains can be turned in 15 minutes. Three platforms and six tracks would be better. It would accommodate 12 trains per hour [[every 5 minutes) with 25 minutes for schedule padding and turnaround. Eight tracks and four island platforms would probably fit, but aren't likely necessary.

The existing grade-separated rail ROW from MCS to West Jefferson will be utilized. A grade-separated rail right-of-way from Jefferson to the Cobo basement would have to be built, probably over Cabacier and 6th Street, but under the Lodge and the other streets in the area [[more on them in a future post).

Michigan Central Station: Develop a new passenger station would serve regional rail, high speed Amtrak trains to Chicago, and VIA trains to Toronto and Montreal. It would be integrated into a renovation of the historic structure, but may be substantially different and new. I believe the MCS tower would make a good hotel and conference center, especially when connected to Cobo and downtown by the rail line.

Why not put intercity trains in the downtown station? Good question. It would be almost impossible to get it to all fit. If Canadian trains went there, there would be a slow and difficult backup move. If they didn't, you'd still be stopping at MCS to allow Amtrak/VIA transfers. Two intercity train stations is one too many.

Regional Rail: 6 lines branch out as they get further away from Cobo and MCS. If every line ran every half hour during rush hour, trains would run as frequently as every 5 minutes between MCS and downtown. Note that half of the lines--and therefore frequencies--would also serve the existing trains station location in New Center.

• Mt Clemens toward Port Huron
• Warren/Utica
• Pontiac and NW
• Plymouth and NW
• Ann Arbor and West
• Monroe toward Toledo

[jsmyers]

Connect a functioning street grid in the area. There should be one street level that functions as a normal city [[pedestrian friendly) street. There will be a lot of infrastructure underneath that. Accomodating the rail line to the Cobo basement is the most difficult and important part of doing so. The next few points highlight how:

1. Disconnect Congress and Larned from the Lodge and make them 2-way streets. Larned would end at Washington.
2. Connect Cabacier to the Riverfront Towers' "street" to Atwater/Yzerman, for a contiguous street from the east riverfront to West Fort, through the west riverfront.
3. Extend Congress to 6th Street and remove the 6th St. overpass at Jefferson, it would end at Jefferson.
4. Extend 3rd Street to Atwater. The Lodge would run underneath 3rd Street to the Cobo "tunnel." Jefferson would meet 3rd at grade [[both to the west and the tunnels to the east).
5. Ideally, you'd have a half diamond interchange with the Lodge at 3rd Street, but I don't think it is possible nor necessary. Accessing the west riverfront from the Lodge can be done through the existing Howard exit along with Fort, 3rd, and 6th.
6. I think the best way to do all of this is to flip the flyover of Exit 1A [[West Jefferson) under southbound M-10 to put the exit over the southbound Lodge lanes. The exit to west Jefferson would them meet 3rd at a similar elevation and location as the existing Yzerman/Jefferson intersection.
7. Exit 1A [[W Jefferson/Joe Louis) would be eliminated as is. The overhead walkways would be removed and would no longer be necessary.
8. Possibly extend 2nd to Atwater, depending on the needs/desires to expand Cobo Hall, plans for JLA, and the difficulty of accommodating all of the infrastructure [[including the crucial service areas of Cobo) in the area.

In summary, the street grid would have the following E-W streets:
Fort, Congress [[to 6th), Jefferson, Atwater [[to Cabacier)
And the following N-S streets:
Cabacier [[from Fort to Atwater), 6th [[to Jefferson), 3rd, 2nd [[possibly)

[Novine]

Didn't someone already do this?

http://fwrail.org/fwinfo/sm_rail.pdf

[Hypestyles]

I support green space/a public park/nature trail.

[jsmyers]

But what do we do with the land under and around Joe Louis Arena? You expand Cobo to the west and south as needed and desired. In doing so:

1. Trim back the northern-most Detroit Hall and reactivate the Congress frontage of Cobo. There are a number of ways to do this: One is to put entrances and meeting rooms along a new hallway. Another is to put retail or other uses that only front the street into that space. It could be a little of both.
2. The Joe could be integrated into an expanded convention center. In this case, the area between Cobo and JLA would be filled in by expanded convention center functions, and the service areas would be relocated to the north and northwest of JLA. I don't know enough about the convention business to know about how you would use the JLA structure, but I speculate that an arena configuration is of limited value [[afterall, they are converting Cobo Arena right now). Regardless, it would be nice to see the south face of the Joe opened up to the river.
3. It may be better to wipe the JLA site clear and start over. It is a great opportunity for Cobo to have a entrance oriented to the west riverfront. A hotel may work as part of it, but I think there are stronger opportunities for a hotel.
4. The northwest corner [[where the Congress on ramp currently is) is another important places to consider. I could see a hotel here with a reactivated Congress frontage and streets connected as I described above. Offices for the convention center are another option [[freeing meeting space elsewhere).
5. The surface parking between the Joe and the Towers would be bisected by Atwater/Yzerman and would be developed, partly into riverfront greenspace.
6. The massive Joe Louis Arena parking garage should be redeveloped in the very long term. Depending on how the rail line can be brought into the Cobo basement through the area, it may be able to stay for years while everything develops around it. I believe that the railroad could be ran through the north section of the deck, the challenge is meeting the grades to get over or under the Lodge and into the Cobo basement. It may be more cost effective to demolish it and build anew.
7. The Joe Louis Arena people mover station becomes the West Riverfront station.

The most important thing in all of this is to have a pedestrian-friendly character for 3rd Street. At the south, that character blends into the riverwalk. Between Jefferson and Fort, it is all about retail with residential above. Perhaps hotels have a place, but I think that they make more sense closer to the center of downtown.

[jsmyers]

Didn't someone already do this?

http://fwrail.org/fwinfo/sm_rail.pdf

I've seen that site. Basically, I'm saying do that, but extend it to downtown [[Cobo).

That last mile makes all the difference in the world.

[jsmyers]

A few additional thoughts on Intercity Passenger Rail:

My ideas [[and freshwater rail's as well, AFAIK) are all about connecting the Detroit region and core to the global economy. Part of that is knitting together the region, but it is also about "moving" Detroit closer to Chicago and Toronto.

Moving trains to MCS and Cobo puts intercity rail on downtown's doorstep. It will soon be 4.5 hours by train between Detroit and Chicago. Stopping at MCS would further shorten the trip. Even adding in a transfer to a regional train for a short trip downtown, it would be faster than driving. It would also be ~4.5 hours from MCS to Toronto.

Having that level of access to two top 10 global financial centers [[#2 and #3 in North America) would be a boon for greater Detroit and Michigan as a whole. [[It would also be great for Cobo Hall as a venue.)

Smart investments in passenger stations help make additional line improvements worthwhile. In the future, trip times to Chicago and Toronto could easily get down to 3.5 and 2.75 hours, respectively [[using the same average speed as the Acela Express between Boston and New Haven). There is nothing precluding incremental improvements to the corridors that would eventually reach that level of service.

Aside: Going faster than that [[150 mph top/83 mph average) would be quite a technical undertaking, and would probably bypass Ann Arbor to Niles with a new rail line by way of Toledo and Fort Wayne.

Having a region rail system supports better intercity passenger rail. Trains to Chicago can be turned sooner in Detroit and regional rail can connect the suburbs, rather than wasting a high speed train's [[more importantly, the crew's) time making a bunch of stops in northern suburbs. This change makes it much easier to turn the existing 3 trains a day to Chicago into 8+ trains a day.

[jsmyers]

What does this crazy scheme accomplish?

1. A connected riverfront from Rosa Parks to Belle Isle.
2. Regional transit that serves the needs of a geographically large region, while helping intercity rail do its job more efficiently.
3. Intercity rail on downtown's doorstep, connecting Detroit to two global financial centers.
4. Residents in Riverfront towers and in west riverfront developments to come will be integrated into downtown, through Congress and 3rd Streets, not just the riverwalk and Fort.
5. The much maligned Detroit People Mover can finally serve its intended function of distributing regional transit passengers! [[Now let's widen that loop to the north and run it two ways...but that's another post.)
6. A productive future for MCS.
7. Cobo Hall has as much room as it could possibly need without cramping the important loading and service areas.

[Novine]

But where do you park the cars?

[jsmyers]

But where do you park the cars?

I think we'll be ok:
http://datadrivendetroit.org/project...ing-inventory/

[gthomas]

But what do we do with the land under and around Joe Louis Arena? You expand Cobo to the west and south as needed and desired. In doing so:

1. Trim back the northern-most Detroit Hall and reactivate the Congress frontage of Cobo. There are a number of ways to do this: One is to put entrances and meeting rooms along a new hallway. Another is to put retail or other uses that only front the street into that space. It could be a little of both.
2. The Joe could be integrated into an expanded convention center. In this case, the area between Cobo and JLA would be filled in by expanded convention center functions, and the service areas would be relocated to the north and northwest of JLA. I don't know enough about the convention business to know about how you would use the JLA structure, but I speculate that an arena configuration is of limited value [[afterall, they are converting Cobo Arena right now). Regardless, it would be nice to see the south face of the Joe opened up to the river.
3. It may be better to wipe the JLA site clear and start over. It is a great opportunity for Cobo to have a entrance oriented to the west riverfront. A hotel may work as part of it, but I think there are stronger opportunities for a hotel.
4. The northwest corner [[where the Congress on ramp currently is) is another important places to consider. I could see a hotel here with a reactivated Congress frontage and streets connected as I described above. Offices for the convention center are another option [[freeing meeting space elsewhere).
5. The surface parking between the Joe and the Towers would be bisected by Atwater/Yzerman and would be developed, partly into riverfront greenspace.
6. The massive Joe Louis Arena parking garage should be redeveloped in the very long term. Depending on how the rail line can be brought into the Cobo basement through the area, it may be able to stay for years while everything develops around it. I believe that the railroad could be ran through the north section of the deck, the challenge is meeting the grades to get over or under the Lodge and into the Cobo basement. It may be more cost effective to demolish it and build anew.
7. The Joe Louis Arena people mover station becomes the West Riverfront station.

The most important thing in all of this is to have a pedestrian-friendly character for 3rd Street. At the south, that character blends into the riverwalk. Between Jefferson and Fort, it is all about retail with residential above. Perhaps hotels have a place, but I think that they make more sense closer to the center of downtown.

Not a bad plan, I like it. This is what I vision also, and it's feasible. It's not too far-fetched, my only concern is who's capable of doing this site correctly to meet all needs and being a prime real estate. This site is just important as the Hudson site, it's either done right or it will end up being similar to the Winter Garden at GM, ...dead.

[hortonz]

I've been hearing talk about an aerial tramway connecting Detroit and Windsor for years but nothings come of it. The Joe Louis property would be perfect for the support tower and entry point. If New York can do it why can't we?

[rb336]

I've been hearing talk about an aerial tramway connecting Detroit and Windsor for years but nothings come of it. The Joe Louis property would be perfect for the support tower and entry point. If New York can do it why can't we?

two words: border security.

It is far easier to create a tram system that is entirely within one city. When you try to create one connecting two different cities, it becomes more complicated. Two states add another level of complexity. what we have is between two cities, two states/provinces and two countries.

[jsmyers]

I've been hearing talk about an aerial tramway connecting Detroit and Windsor for years but nothings come of it. The Joe Louis property would be perfect for the support tower and entry point. If New York can do it why can't we?

I love the idea of a tram. The added complexity of customs and immigration would be tough, but it isn't impossible [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland_Aerial_Tram). Even though I love the idea, I'm not sure it is the best marginal use of transportation funding.

That said, I don't think JLA is a good location for it. It would better connect the city centers if it landed near the tunnel portal and Hart Plaza. Right next to the Mariners' church seems ideal. This location would have the added benefit of co-locating with the existing security infrastructure.

[mikeg19]

Pie in the sky railway dreams. Although I love the idea, it will not happen. Detroit will want a "signature" building or some sort of landmark on the site incorporating the riverwalk as well. It took how many years to get a frigging 3 mile light rail system to break ground? Good luck.