The End of Detroit... [Plan to widen I-94, I-75]

[Hypestyles]

so what's going to happen to the residents/businesses that are closest to the planned expansion areas? Will they get properly compensated? or just get eviction notices?

[ghettopalmetto]

I tend to believe that if MDOT had their way, all of Detroit would look like this:

[Gistok]

so what's going to happen to the residents/businesses that are closest to the planned expansion areas? Will they get properly compensated? or just get eviction notices?

Well the laws of Eminent Domain will kick in... but they should be compensated... although I wouldn't expect them to be given enough money to move to the suburbs...

[Honky Tonk]

I tend to believe that if MDOT had their way, all of Detroit would look like this:

I seriously doubt it since Detroit doesn't have anywhere near the residency for it.

[Gistok]

Hehehe... he certainly likes to use Hyperbole a lot for making his arguments...

[rb336]

RB, you and the anti-freeway brigade pull out 'induced demand' as an argument against freeway improvements. You are 100% right that adding lanes induces demand.

But when congestion returns, four [[4) congested lanes have 33% more capacity than three [[3) congested lanes.

That's the goal. Throughput. Not congestion removal.

Demand is what you want. Thus, induced demand is exactly what you want. People who want to be in Detroit. More of them.

Sorry to destroy this argument, but holding up induced demand as a bad thing is induced ignorance of the goals of highways.

You have destroyed nothing. If their goal was induced demand, why would they not say that? the stated goal is to reduce congestion. With that as the stated goal, there are many more efficient and effective means of doing so.

[ghettopalmetto]

You have destroyed nothing. If their goal was induced demand, why would they not say that? the stated goal is to reduce congestion. With that as the stated goal, there are many more efficient and effective means of doing so.

Economists consider that driving in the United States is a "free" good. In other words, there is latent demand for roadway capacity. You don't have to spend billions to encourage it.

But some people are just going to believe whatever stupid bullshit lets them sleep comfortably.

[Scottathew]

You have destroyed nothing. If their goal was induced demand, why would they not say that? the stated goal is to reduce congestion. With that as the stated goal, there are many more efficient and effective means of doing so.

Yeah, they should starting doing things like HOV lanes, oh wait, they are.

Bottom line is that mass transit is going to be done at a regional level, with the cooperation and blessing of M-DOT.

M-DOT would love for the Detroit region to start implementing a transit system that didn't involve cars, it would mean more money for other things.

Look at other places where mass transit is implemented, it's not done by the state, it's done by cities and regional authorities.

[GP For Life]

Economists consider that driving in the United States is a "free" good. In other words, there is latent demand for roadway capacity. You don't have to spend billions to encourage it.

It's a "free" good till demand exceeds the inherit capacity.

You guys are acting like this is a negative for Detroit. Real mass transit will never happen until MI and Detroit exhibit a positive and sustainable population growth.

The 94/75 area is a cluster. It costs lives, dollars and, productivity. It's outdated and overused. Even if you put in a new subway that went everywhere, you'd still need to update it. So, just stop.

I hope all you get stuck in traffic for the rest of your lives.

[Bham1982]

Ok, here's induced traffic, as it applies to I-75 and potential expansion.

Planned capacity of I-75 is four lanes, and we'll call it X. In theory, addition of one additional lane resulted in additional capacity amounting to .25X. But in reality, the improvements will induce traffic that otherwise wasn't there [[traffic on Stephenson Hwy, people avoiding the drive during congested periods, etc.). So the real added capacity is like .10 or .15X.

So, in the end, you have added capacity and traffic is flowing better, but you have also attracted a lot more traffic by providing a faster, more convenient route.

Potential added demand, while somewhat elastic, isn't limitless. You aren't going to fill the highway with some endless resevoir of potential drivers.

[Bham1982]

Here is a short scholarly piece that explains the concept in economic principles. There is a nice bibliography at the end.

http://www.worldbank.org/transport/r...s/apbinduc.pdf

AASHTO, publishers of the "Green Book" [[the cookbook used by highway engineers) acknowledged the existence of induced demand back in 1957. Stated another way, MDOT engineers are ignoring the governing body of their own profession.

There is nothing in this study that supports your claims.

Again, you are misusing induced demand to just blanket oppose anything car-oriented, then conveniently ignoring your perception of induced demand for any other mode of transit.

[Honky Tonk]

Yeah, they should starting doing things like HOV lanes, oh wait, they are.

Bottom line is that mass transit is going to be done at a regional level, with the cooperation and blessing of M-DOT.

M-DOT would love for the Detroit region to start implementing a transit system that didn't involve cars, it would mean more money for other things.

Look at other places where mass transit is implemented, it's not done by the state, it's done by cities and regional authorities.

I heard when they expand those, there'll be a bike lane in each direction.

[Honky Tonk]

It's a "free" good till demand exceeds the inherit capacity.

You guys are acting like this is a negative for Detroit. Real mass transit will never happen until MI and Detroit exhibit a positive and sustainable population growth.

The 94/75 area is a cluster. It costs lives, dollars and, productivity. It's outdated and overused. Even if you put in a new subway that went everywhere, you'd still need to update it. So, just stop.

I hope all you get stuck in traffic for the rest of your lives.

There's no traffic jams in Eutopia.....

[Bham1982]

. Broadway in Manhattan has more throughput than I-94 or I-75, but it's not 18 lanes wide.

Broadway in Manhattan is very slow-moving, two lanes or three lanes, depending on location, and one-way. It also tends to be dominated by delivery vehicles, taxis and black cars [[for-hire car services).

I find it extremely difficult to believe it has similar levels of private car traffic as major Metro Detroit surface streets, to say nothing of I-75.

[ghettopalmetto]

Broadway in Manhattan is very slow-moving, two lanes or three lanes, depending on location, and one-way. I find it extremely difficult to believe it has similar levels of private car traffic as major Metro Detroit surface streets, to say nothing of I-75.

The subway line beneath Broadway, by itself, has more capacity than either I-94 or I-75. Add to that the pedestrians, bicycles, buses, taxis, and automobiles....

Your made-up example, using made-up numbers, doesn't illustrate a damned thing. Scholarly [[i.e. NOT made-up from thin-air) studies have determined that, within a period of ten years, a 10 percent increase in capacity will result in a 10 percent increase in vehicle trips.

But just like MDOT, you can only think in terms of "private car traffic". And it's MDOTs sole focus on private cars that will preclude any development of mass transit on its part. As was noted previously by professorscott, MDOT only has one solution to anything--widen the roads. This is what they do, and they are extremely good at it. Never mind that *increasing* Detroit's reliance on automobile traffic, which these projects do, will directly undermine any effort to establish an effective transit system and pedestrian-friendly environments.

It was stated above the states do not get involved in mass transit planning. Au contraire! Massachusetts, Maryland, Virginia, New Jersey, and Illinois--states with large urban areas like Michigan--are involved in transit planning and operations. Hell--Maryland's MTA is part of the state government! Metro North and Long Island RR are chartered by the State of New York, and Connecticut DOT owns and runs part of Metro North.

This thread is just another shit-tastic litany of excuses for the status quo that has worked so, so fantastically for Michigan.

[ghettopalmetto]

It's a "free" good till demand exceeds the inherit capacity.

Free goods have infinite demand, by definition. That's Econ 101.

You guys are acting like this is a negative for Detroit. Real mass transit will never happen until MI and Detroit exhibit a positive and sustainable population growth.

$2.3 billion to increase long-term congestion? Wiping out land in a neighborhood that is seeing substantial development? How is this a positive?

The 94/75 area is a cluster. It costs lives, dollars and, productivity. It's outdated and overused. Even if you put in a new subway that went everywhere, you'd still need to update it. So, just stop.

Widening to 18 lanes is not updating, it's wasteful. You can resurface roads, reconfigure interchanges, and repair bridges without creating expensive automotive canyons through neighborhoods.

[Bham1982]

The subway line beneath Broadway, by itself, has more capacity than either I-94 or I-75. Add to that the pedestrians, bicycles, buses, taxis, and automobiles....

Obviously, but you said Broadway, and we are talking car traffic. There is very little private car traffic, and very little private car capacity.

Your made-up example, using made-up numbers, doesn't illustrate a damned thing. Scholarly [[i.e. NOT made-up from thin-air) studies have determined that, within a period of ten years, a 10 percent increase in capacity will result in a 10 percent increase in vehicle trips.

No, you just made that up.

Induced traffic theory has never claimed that potential traffic supply is totally elastic, and essentially limitless. The level of elasticity is very geography-specific.

If your theory were true, a 100-lane freeway in the Yukon would be as crowded as one in Mexico City, because the addition of lanes in the Yukon necessitates a corresponding increase in traffic.

In Metro Detroit, with flat population growth, you will not have highly elastic growth for major transit investments. There just aren't enough people around who will exercise the choice to utilize a mobility improvement.

But just like MDOT, you can only think in terms of "private car traffic". .

Induced traffic has nothing to do with "private car traffic". It applies to all transit modes; beacuse it's dealing with mobility preferences, not mode preferences.

[Detroitnerd]

Well, I think it's pretty clear who's winning the argument and who's flailing about and looking ridiculous.

[Bham1982]

Well, I think it's pretty clear who's winning the argument and who's flailing about and looking ridiculous.

Couldn't agree more.

[Detroitnerd]

Couldn't agree more.

[ghettopalmetto]

In Metro Detroit, with flat population growth, you will not have highly elastic growth for major transit investments. There just aren't enough people around who will exercise the choice to utilize a mobility improvement.

You work for MDOT or a county road commission, don't you? No one else on earth refers to a road widening with vague bullshit terms like "mobility improvement".

[Bham1982]

You work for MDOT or a county road commission, don't you? No one else on earth refers to a road widening with vague bullshit terms like "mobility improvement".

No, I don't work for either. I have no relationship with any of these entities.

[TKshreve]

This thread needs to die.

Just like the people mover.

[Wesley Mouch]

You have destroyed nothing. If their goal was induced demand, why would they not say that? the stated goal is to reduce congestion. With that as the stated goal, there are many more efficient and effective means of doing so.

They say reduced congestion is an impediment to their goal, and an indication of where effort need be spent to accomplish a goal. The goal of all highways is to move stuff in the highest volume AND at the fastest rate.

Congestion might be compared to heart congestion. You don't care about it if you can live and do things. You don't care about the congestion. Its simply removed to allow you a productive life. Your goal is the productive life.

[Detroitnerd]

Widening a highway to relieve congestion is like loosening your belt to lose weight.