The End of Detroit... [Plan to widen I-94, I-75]

[Detroitnerd]

Can you cite one place on earth where highways are no longer expanded?

I know of no major metro area where there is some blanket policy to forego capacity expansions on roadways. Certainly none of the major cities in the U.S. have such a policy.

Oh, I know this game. You never have to cite one single fucking fact, because you pull all of them out of your ass. But in the face of repeated citations and evidence, you just stubbornly jam your fingers in your ears and yell, "LALALALALALA."

What a joke.

[Wesley Mouch]

No one is arguing that the bridges and roadway surfaces need work. No one is arguing that, perhaps, a couple interchanges should be reconfigured for safety reasons.

It *is* a problem, though, that MDOT is using this maintenance work as an excuse to create unneeded pavement, which takes taxable land off the rolls, and creates higher long-term maintenance costs. The MDOT models once projected an increase of 14% in Vehicle Miles Traveled [[VMT). VMT has actually *decreased* by over 10% since those models were made. So where's the justification???

This is just a single-minded agency that knows how to do one thing, and one thing only. MDOT honestly believes it can build its way out of any roadway congestion--just like engineers expected I-75 to permanently solve all of Detroit's congestion when it was constructed. Sadly, it's an expensive trick that the rest of the world gave up long ago.

VMP overall is not same as VMT on that stretch of roadway.

MDOT may be road-obsessed, but my friend you've picked the wrong example. Here, they are simply doing what any rational person would do. When a resource reaches end of its useful life, you replace it with what is needed today -- to the degree you can afford the capital cost. When you replace, you do so to current standards. The standards may suck up a little taxpaying land, but that's the rules. If you follow the rules, you get 90% federal money. To just replace the left-hand exits on 94 and not deal with the other issues you probably would have to forgo the 90% DOD support -- and frankly it would be stupid to ignore the current congestion.

The extra land is mostly in the shoulders and service drives, I am guessing. The actual land for two lanes in probably a small percentage.

And just changing the interchanges would destroy super-valuable 4th St. anyway.

[Detroitnerd]

I-94 should be boulevarded and the cross-country traffic routed around the city. Then we'd have our precious crosstown route [[I agree, we need good crosstown thoroughfares) and acres of new developable land along it. Heck, while you're at it, put a subway down there and cover it over with a new boulevard. Oh, that's right: We don't have money for that. All our money is directed toward road-expanding, when we can't even pay the bill for maintaining that shit.

[Gistok]

I-94 should be boulevarded and the cross-country traffic routed around the city. Then we'd have our precious crosstown route [[I agree, we need good crosstown thoroughfares) and acres of new developable land along it. Heck, while you're at it, put a subway down there and cover it over with a new boulevard. Oh, that's right: We don't have money for that. All our money is directed toward road-expanding, when we can't even pay the bill for maintaining that shit.

I agree... they should put an 8 lane east/west boulevard right thru Hamtramck... since it's responsible for much of the lack of east/west access to both sides of the northern half of Detroit....

The closing of any interstate is just not going to happen, especially with the hundreds of millions already spent on bridgework....

[Detroitnerd]

Ah, Gistok, I know you're being funny. Davison works fine for me up there ... to a point.

Much better than having one huge trunk road across the city would be to have several smaller routes. We both know that Detroit grew by accretion with few rules and no overarching plan, so thanks to the French private claims crosstown roads have always been in short supply. I find nothing wrong with the way Mack was bulldozed through to Myrtle to create MLK, or how Vernor Highway was cobbled together out of various streets. You'll find, if you look, that sometimes houses had to be demolished and blocks divided to put through roads like McGraw. We have a long history of this.

But the problem with expressways is that they're really not well-suited to urban areas. You're going to take almost every trip that would take place on all these crosstown thoroughfares and pack them onto one road. To this you add every car and truck that is simply passing right through town without stopping. Then make a section of it an interchange for several other freeways that have their own amount of trips taken off city roads and with their own traffic passing through, and you are guaranteed to have several hours a day when the traffic is very, very heavy.

Now, what's the problem? Seems to me before spending billions of dollars on a "fix" it would be much cheaper to understand what the problem is. The problem isn't congestion. The problem is the nature of urban expressways themselves.

Do the bridges need to be repaired? Such as they are, yes.

Does the roadway need work? I think so, yes.

Do we need to spend billions to enlarge the very problem we're trying to solve? Absolutely not.

[iheartthed]

Can you cite one place on earth where highways are no longer expanded?

I know of no major metro area where there is some blanket policy to forego capacity expansions on roadways. Certainly none of the major cities in the U.S. have such a policy.

I've never seen one in New York...

[Gistok]

Hehehe... DetroitNerd... of course I am... Davison is great if you live in Hamtramck for getting to the west side. But for far eastsiders the worst thing the city has ever done is close McNichols... at least you used to be able to take that street to get to Davison and points west. Now the only option is 7 Mile, which is a horrible way... might as well take 8 Mile... but that sort of removes you from the Davison option...

[Detroitnerd]

Hehehe... DetroitNerd... of course I am... Davison is great if you live in Hamtramck for getting to the west side. But for far eastsiders the worst thing the city has ever done is close McNichols... at least you used to be able to take that street to get to Davison and points west. Now the only option is 7 Mile, which is a horrible way... might as well take 8 Mile... but that sort of removes you from the Davison option...

I hear you there. We do need crosstown routes, and the city often makes decisions that make me fume. [[See also: Livernois median)

[GP For Life]

Overutilized? For what--all of 10 hours a week? Yeah, that's worth $2.7 billion.

You just keep believing what you want to believe, kiddo. Maybe we can build an eight-lane expressway along the Detroit River so that all those Grosse Pointers will be able to find downtown too. I mean, that can only cost a paltry $3 or $4 billion, right?

I thought I had educated you already?

You do realize that if we built a light rail line, it would be underutilized the majority of the time too, right? You forget that 94 is an international trade artery, so when I am not stuck on it cursing hippsters, truckers are moving goods from point-to-point, adding value to the economy.

At some point, you just need to recognize your betters and slow your roll. You have hit that point. You're woefully out of your depth.

[ghettopalmetto]

I thought I had educated you already?

You do realize that if we built a light rail line, it would be underutilized the majority of the time too, right? You forget that 94 is an international trade artery, so when I am not stuck on it cursing hippsters, truckers are moving goods from point-to-point, adding value to the economy.

At some point, you just need to recognize your betters and slow your roll. You have hit that point. You're woefully out of your depth.

Do you feel better now?

The "international trade artery" bit is a line of bullshit MDOT came out with after the new bridge was proposed in 2004. The I-94 widening proposal dates to at least 1998. So it makes you wonder why MDOT would suddenly attach this "international trade" tagline if the I-94 widening were so desirable on its own merits.

This project is an expensive dumpster fire. And there's no justifiable reason to widen either of these two freeways, other than, "Well, we drew some lines on a map a couple decades ago."

If this widening is so important to international trade, where's the new 10-lane freeway with service drives through the middle of Buffalo?

Oh, and Cleveland is about to start container shipping to Europe in March. Maybe they had better hurry up and widen all their freeways too. You know, just in case.

[RO_Resident]

Do you feel better now?

The "international trade artery" bit is a line of bullshit MDOT came out with after the new bridge was proposed in 2004. The I-94 widening proposal dates to at least 1998. So it makes you wonder why MDOT would suddenly attach this "international trade" tagline if the I-94 widening were so desirable on its own merits.

This project is an expensive dumpster fire. And there's no justifiable reason to widen either of these two freeways, other than, "Well, we drew some lines on a map a couple decades ago."

If this widening is so important to international trade, where's the new 10-lane freeway with service drives through the middle of Buffalo?

Oh, and Cleveland is about to start container shipping to Europe in March. Maybe they had better hurry up and widen all their freeways too. You know, just in case.

Nah, Cleveland is proposing to spend $331 million on their 'not a freeway' freeway connector between I-490 and the University Circle neighborhood. I'm sure you will love the name of the project, the 'Opportunity Corridor'.

On top of that, ODOT is working on a freight plan for the state. Most likely, the freight corridors will get a third lane in each direction, just like what they are doing to the Ohio Turnpike. So, Ohio is adding freeway capacity now, and in the future.

[DetroitPlanner]

Nah, Cleveland is proposing to spend $331 million on their 'not a freeway' freeway connector between I-490 and the University Circle neighborhood. I'm sure you will love the name of the project, the 'Opportunity Corridor'.

On top of that, ODOT is working on a freight plan for the state. Most likely, the freight corridors will get a third lane in each direction, just like what they are doing to the Ohio Turnpike. So, Ohio is adding freeway capacity now, and in the future.

To add to RO's comments:

ODOT has just completed the realigning of US-24 [[Telegraph) to a freeway from US-23 to the Ohio Border in Toledo. INDOT is doing the same from Fort Wayne to this point. Why? To move freight expeditiously to the new DRIC. We have an opportunity here as being a manufacturing and trading center that many of you fail to see. Why do you think so many people gambled on the Packard Plant acquisition? It is a big piece of land right on this route. You want rebirth? Well building stuff and shipping it to other markets creates a hell of a lot more jobs and spin-off jobs than any coffee shop or boutique ever will. Manufacturing is something we do better than anyone else. I saw someone else post that I-94 is only congested 10 hours a week. That is an understatement. It is closer to ten hours a day!

There is 397,000 gallons of fuel wasted; 204,000 hours of delay, costing the local economy over $17 million dollars a day! [[Source TTI http://mobility.tamu.edu/files/2011/...ngs.pdf#page=3 ) How do you think it will be once the bridge opens? Better? yeah right.

[DetroitPlanner]

Much better than having one huge trunk road across the city would be to have several smaller routes. We both know that Detroit grew by accretion with few rules and no overarching plan, so thanks to the French private claims crosstown roads have always been in short supply. I find nothing wrong with the way Mack was bulldozed through to Myrtle to create MLK, or how Vernor Highway was cobbled together out of various streets. You'll find, if you look, that sometimes houses had to be demolished and blocks divided to put through roads like McGraw. We have a long history of this.

If Detroit is so unplanned how did the Blvd Happen? How about Warren, which is exactly the road you describe we should have. It is Crosstown and mostly follows I-94. If induced demand was really an issue, why the hell can't it work in reverse? Why has not all of this congested traffic moved onto roads like Warren, Harper, or the Blvd? hmm could it be because most of this traffic is through traffic? Could it be that adding service drives will actually do more to put traffic onto the local road system faster than it currently does?

[ghettopalmetto]

Nah, Cleveland is proposing to spend $331 million on their 'not a freeway' freeway connector between I-490 and the University Circle neighborhood. I'm sure you will love the name of the project, the 'Opportunity Corridor'.

On top of that, ODOT is working on a freight plan for the state. Most likely, the freight corridors will get a third lane in each direction, just like what they are doing to the Ohio Turnpike. So, Ohio is adding freeway capacity now, and in the future.

The Opportunity Corridor is hotly contested by residents, who don't necessarily want it. Still, your characterization of that roadway as a "freeway" is incorrect. It is proposed as a boulevard, with a 35 mph speed limit.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...falls_sho.html

Cleveland has also been convincing ODOT to downgrade the West Shoreway from a freeway to a 35 mph boulevard.

ODOT likewise has a history of overzealous freeway construction [[To wit: I-490 and OH-176--the Jennings Freeway). To my knowledge, they don't have any plans to build 14-lane freeways just because some lines were drawn on a map in the 1990s. Where they have expanded freeways in the past, say adding Express Lanes to I-271, traffic congestion is still an eternal clusterfuck. None of this excuses the billions that are about to be squandered by MDOT, which has an opportunity to learn from the simple folk in Columbus.

The Ohio Turnpike Commission is independent of ODOT, and the Turnpike expansion was funded by increased tolls [[You know, where the user actually pays to use the road). The Turnpike has very *very* limited access to urban areas, and runs along the primary route between Chicago and the East Coast. Even still, the widened Turnpike will have about 1/2 the capacity of a widened I-94, and it seems to do just peachy.

[Brian1979]

Of course, there's always the "trucking" argument, yet you still don't see 18-lane-wide freeways going through New York City, Chicago, Buffalo, or any other manufacturing and shipping hub. Michigan's biggest problem is that it doesn't dare look beyond its own borders to see that its ideas are already tried and tired. This is a case of Idiocy mixed with Nostalgia for the 1950s.

Chicago has the 14 lane Dan Ryan Expressway, I believe that's close enough. Plus the Dan Ryan has the CTA Red Line going right down the middle of it.

[DetroitPlanner]

The Ohio Turnpike Commission is independent of ODOT, and the Turnpike expansion was funded by increased tolls [[You know, where the user actually pays to use the road). The Turnpike has very *very* limited access to urban areas, and runs along the primary route between Chicago and the East Coast. Even still, the widened Turnpike will have about 1/2 the capacity of a widened I-94, and it seems to do just peachy.

Hmmm.... better check your facts.
"The Fifth voting member is the Director of ODOT"
https://www.ohioturnpike.org/about-us/commissionstaff/

"The turnpike funding is expected to allow ODOT to eliminate years-long delays on projects such as the $324 million, 3 1/2-mile Opportunity Corridor connecting Interstate 490 to East 105th Street."
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...on_in_fun.html

I would say they are joined at the hip. Both report to the Governor and the head of ODOT votes on the commission. No different than say the Mackinac Bridge Commission and MDOT. I would be very surprised if anything gets done on the Turnpike that does not use ODOT engineering or federal funds passed through from ODOT.

[Hermod]

I would be very surprised if anything gets done on the Turnpike that does not use ODOT engineering or federal funds passed through from ODOT.

Well, the turnpike tolls do provide another source of funding separate from the fed and state fuel taxes.

[Hermod]

Detroit Nerd and Ghetto Palmetto believe that the freeways were designed as an evil scheme to permit the producing class to take their resources and flee the problems of the city.

Detroit Planner believes that the freeways were built to expedite commercial traffic through Detroit.

The reason the freeways were conceived by the city was to expedite traffic from the downtown to the neighborhoods [[Lodge and Chrysler) and to expedite crosstown traffic [[Ford).

For this reason, the freeways as designed are not particularly convenient for suburban commuters nor are they convenient for truck traffic.

The freeways have too many entrances and exits too close together with very short acceleration/deceleration ramps. In many places there is excessive weaving where traffic getting off has to lace itself through traffic getting on. For this reason, the expressways are not really convenient for long haul traffic.

For better efficiency with the same number of lanes. you need to close underused entrances and exits, you need to extend on-ramps and off-ramps, and where there is a weaving problem you need to build "laced" ramps where the on-ramp passes over the off-ramp on a bridge.

If you can eliminate or at least ameliorate the "conflicts" and the resultant "accordion" effect on the traffic flow, you can make the existing six travel lanes work.

[Cliffy]

when we can't even pay the bill for maintaining that shit.

The reason we can't pay for this stuff is because of backwards legislature that keeps on passing the buck. .19 cents per gallon was set in 1997. No, not a .19 cent increase, .19 freaking cents total. Obviously prices and wages have gone up so for example a ton of asphalt may have $25 back then where now its $70 a ton. The tea party incompetents tell everyone to make it work and be more efficient. Then we have the citizens buying into that shit. We charge a 6% sales tax on gas and that goes to freaking schools. Not sure how gasoline and schools correlate. If we took that 6% tax and diverted it to roads like it should be, we would be swimming in money and then changed it from .19 per gallon to a percentage of the wholesale price, we would have more money than what to do with it. To fix school funding, we could do some hybrid adding 1% sales tax and adding something to the property taxes.

This shit can be fixed so easily but we got the tea party mouth breathers running the show and they want to go back to gravel roads, home schooling, and where everyone walks around with a gun.

[Cliffy]

Chicago has the 14 lane Dan Ryan Expressway, I believe that's close enough. Plus the Dan Ryan has the CTA Red Line going right down the middle of it.

San Diego has I-5 running down the middle and thats at least 8 lanes and probably more. Same thing with Seattle. People need to get off using NYC as an example. There is only one NYC in the world. Its like comparing a Ford Fusion to a BMW M5. There is no comparison.

[rb336]

San Diego has I-5 running down the middle and thats at least 8 lanes and probably more. Same thing with Seattle. People need to get off using NYC as an example. There is only one NYC in the world. Its like comparing a Ford Fusion to a BMW M5. There is no comparison.

I-5 doesn't "run through the middle" of San Diego, it loops around downtown. Seattle is more correct. and yes, NYC IS an apt comparison, unless you are strictly speaking about Manhattan. Queens is riddled by freeways [[I-278,I-495, etc.) , Brooklyn has them as outliers

[Brian1979]

San Diego has I-5 running down the middle and thats at least 8 lanes and probably more. Same thing with Seattle. People need to get off using NYC as an example. There is only one NYC in the world. Its like comparing a Ford Fusion to a BMW M5. There is no comparison.

The Kennedy Expressway is 10 lanes with 2 express lanes which can be reversed for morning and afternoon rush hours, otherwise they usually are closed. It's like that up to the Edens where it goes down to 6 lanes and the CTA Blue Line runs down it's median from Addison to O'Hare.

Then the Eisenhower is 8 lanes and also has the CTA Blue Line in it's median. This was actually the first rail line to run down an expressway median, the median is quite wide, wider than the Dan Ryan Red Line branch and O'Hare Blue Line branch.

The Stevenson is like Detroit's Ford Freeway. It has 6 lanes, 3 in each direction and has no mass transit running down it's median. The Stevenson is a nightmare at rush hour though.

I-57 and the Edens are both 6 lanes.

I like how Chicago is laid out, all the expressways and L lines basically run towards downtown.

[Wesley Mouch]

I'm shocked. A reasonable response from MDOT on possibility of saving United Sound Studios:

Rob Morosi, spokesman for MDOT, told the Free Press, "We told them: If we do need a portion of your property, there are ways we can work with you to make sure we don’t demolish [[the studio)."

Will wonders never cease! Next thing you know, they'll be in the boulevard business.

Link: mlive

[DetroitPlanner]

I'm shocked. A reasonable response from MDOT on possibility of saving United Sound Studios:

Will wonders never cease! Next thing you know, they'll be in the boulevard business.

Link: mlive

What SEMCOG approved last week included about $20 million dollars to work with the local communities along I-94 and I-75 to look at minor changes and adaptions to mitigate even more of the impacts. That is something that was buried in all of the hoopla over the project.

There is a lot of mis-information being spread about this project by those who want to use the money for transit. Unfortunately, not all highway funds are flexible enough to be spent on anything you want to. Both federal and state laws spell this out. [[MAP-21 and Act 51) This is to ensure that major investments and needed improvements to infrastructure do not go ignored.

For example, what would happen if these things were not in place? What would be the result? Would it be more money for transit or would the politicians just raid the transit set-asides and spend it on roads in their districts? After all, a new road is more noticeable than a bus with a new engine or transmission.

[iheartthed]

San Diego has I-5 running down the middle and thats at least 8 lanes and probably more. Same thing with Seattle. People need to get off using NYC as an example. There is only one NYC in the world. Its like comparing a Ford Fusion to a BMW M5. There is no comparison.

A city is a city just like a car is a car. Neither a Fusion or an M5 works well without an engine or gasoline.