Power Knocked Out for a Half Million Metro Detroit Customers. Why?

[313WX]

Detroitnerd, I suggest you get some solar panels and go off-grid. That should help you both with the electricity and your anger issues.

I don't think solar panels [[by themselves) will do one much good in a place like Michigray [[see weather like today for example which is quite common outside the Summer months).

There was a news story years ago about a town in the Lake Effect belt of NY that decided to use solar energy and they were eventually without power due to the excessive cloudiness.

[Jimaz]

... Anybody who's seen "Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room" remembers hearing recordings of power salesmen laughing about fucking over little old ladies and all the various tricks they'd use to wreak havoc with "rolling blackouts" to extort more money from ratepayers....

That's worth a link: Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room. Total duration 1 hr 49 min.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Enron had corrupt corporate practices. Therefore DTE is the same? By that logic, we could assume that because some of our city council members are corrupt and incompetent, then all of our city council members are corrupt... oh, wait. Maybe you're right.

[Richard]

There is or was a link showing real time solar production from the panels at GM,you can view it to see daily output and decide if it is feasible to invest in solar.

[313WX]

Enron had corrupt corporate practices. Therefore DTE is the same? By that logic, we could assume that because some of our city council members are corrupt and incompetent, then all of our city council members are corrupt... oh, wait. Maybe you're right.

I'm sure all politicians and businesses engage in SOME unethical practices.

Some just do a better job of keeping it hidden, or people are willing to overlook some of their unethical practices given the results they produce [[I.E. Snyder's Administration, Chicago Politicans, Rob Ford in Toronto, etc.).

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I'm sure all politicians and businesses engage in SOME unethical practices.

I don't agree with that. The majority of people in all walks of life are ethical. Some people in all walks of life are dishonest. The key to preserving an ethical environment in an organizational setting is strictly defining parameters of what is and what is not appropriate, and having transparency. Since so much corruption is financial, that means allowing full public vetting of finances both regularly and by surprise, and allowing all contracts to be published online for 30 days before approved. There are no national security secrets in city, county or state government. Everything can be done in public.

[313WX]

I don't agree with that. The majority of people in all walks of life are ethical. Some people in all walks of life are dishonest.

While most people may choose to act ethically when there's no monetary value, money will make people do morally irresponsible things they wouldn't otherwise do.

As a more lighthearted example, someone hiring their unqualified relatives and friends into positions within the organization would be unethical activity. In fact, you would be hard pressed to find an organization where this doesn't happen.

[Jimaz]

Enron had corrupt corporate practices....

Please switch off the video before 1:42:00 — for your own sake.

[mwilbert]

Fuck your corporate happy talk. I liked Ma Bell. You dialed a wrong number, you got an operator on the phone and said, "Take that off my bill." And they did. Something wrong with your phone? A technician came and repaired your phone. Rates too high? People would raise holy hell and everybody knew exactly who the fuck to be angry at: Ma Bell.

Ten years later, try in that fucking voice-mail hell created by "deregulation" you couldn't get a live operator on the phone, you couldn't get anybody to admit that a billing error was their responsibility, you had a labyrinth of different "providers" all pointing the finger at other entities, who, in turn, denied all responsibility. I lived through all that crap. So save your happy horseshit talk for somebody who just fell off the turnip cart.

First, I didn't say it was better. I also didn't say, nor do I believe, that it was always better--the AT&T breakup was quite disruptive. Given that I was running a good sized data network at the time, probably more so for me than for you--things like having to use different carriers depending on which LATA your facilities were in was just annoying. Now that it has been 30 years, things have settled out and I would say they are definitely better.

What I did say was that there is more competition than there used to be, which is true, since there was basically none under the Bell System. I also said that the phone company was a private monopoly, not a public entity, which seems to have escaped you since you seemed to think it had been privatized. So you liked the phone monopoly, but don't like the electric distribution monopoly. Let's go for best two of three--how do you feel about the natural gas distribution monopoly?

[mwilbert]

I don't think solar panels [[by themselves) will do one much good in a place like Michigray [[see weather like today for example which is quite common outside the Summer months).

There was a news story years ago about a town in the Lake Effect belt of NY that decided to use solar energy and they were eventually without power due to the excessive cloudiness.

Actually this is a common misconception. Although they obviously work the best in places with no clouds, solar panels will deliver a pretty respectable percentage of peak power even in fairly overcast conditions, which is why such non-sunny places as Denmark and Germany are able to generate large portions of their power using photovoltaics. That said, it will be a few more years before the economics are compelling in Michigan. On the other hand, projects to bury electrical wires will take much longer than that.

[mwilbert]

Distributed generation as practiced by cool hippies running power back into the grid from their windmills and photovoltaics? Or by asshats who want to make extra money by upending the economies of scale of power grids by pretty much forcing individual households to buy their own fucking power plants?

Probably some of both. I doubt anyone is going to actually force households to buy their own generation capacity, but there will probably have to be some kind of change to the pricing of connection to the grid. Maybe that could cost enough to force people to generate their own power, but unless generation becomes way cheaper I wouldn't think so. If it does become way cheaper, probably a good idea.

You know it's a shitty deal for the average person when they give it a hard-to-understand name like "distributed generation."

OK, I'll bite. What do you think would be a simpler yet descriptive name? I actually think "distributed generation" is a pretty straightforward term for what it going on. I certainly don't think it is a masterpiece of obfuscation.

[sumas]

First: I am grateful I did not lose power. I contracted with a private firm 3 weeks ago to cut a dead tree limb that hangs over my power lines that come from our alley. I guess the job was too small to bother with. Still haven't seen them.

Second: I believe as a granted easement it should have been DTE's responsibility to cut that limb but they say: not our problem. Duh. They said no way. My attorney and insurance company say otherwise.

That limb maintained its placement THANK GOD!

Third: I believe DTE to be illegal monopoly.

Forth: DTE has it name plastered all over as funders for concerts, grants for community programs etc but cut off utilities with zero mercy to the poor who get behind.

Sorry Lowell for swearing: Fuck DTE

[Hermod]

Second: I believe as a granted easement it should have been DTE's responsibility to cut that limb but they say: not our problem. Duh. They said no way. My attorney and insurance company say otherwise.

Third: I believe DTE to be illegal monopoly.

Forth: DTE has it name plastered all over as funders for concerts, grants for community programs etc but cut off utilities with zero mercy to the poor who get behind.

Two: Most place I have lived, the electric company trims the trees hanging over the trunk line while the homeowner trims the trees hanging over the line from the pole to the house.

Three: Illegal? Utilities are granted the monopoly by the government in return for submitting to regulation. There are a lot of electric and gas companies in the US which have service monopolies for their area. Landline telephone and CATV service works the same way. They are granted an exclusive franchise by the state/locality.

Four: Utilities have their rates set on a "cost-plus" basis where the "plus" is their profit. Charitable giving comes out of their "plus" and is "advertising".
Allowing people to continue to use electricity without paying for it is a "cost" and if they do that, they will have to go to the regulators and request increased rates for the people that do pay for their electricity to make up for the shortfall.

[trotwood]

I live in an area where,almost without fail,if the wind blows slightly too hard or I sneeze too loudly the power goes out. I've been in this area for a little over three years. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to the outages. Last winter power went out in an odd manner. It was out in a three block radius but it specific spots. My home,my neighbors,&an apartment building lost power yet homes across the street were functioning. During the last Presidental election cycle power went out in a three block radius again yet a school almost directly behind my home was still powered as were buisnesses a few blocks west of me. What made that outage all the stranger was as I stood in line to vote a man spoke of how his power had gone out the night before and was still out yet his next door neighbors on both sides hadn't gone dark.
This past September power went out one night just after 7:00pm and wasn't restored until that following morning around 11:30am. The only bright spot of the last outage was I remembered DTE's policy of issuing a small credit to customers who experience extended outages. As nice is it was to receive the credit I'd much rather DTE work to make improvements to issue constant outages aren't happening so often.
Thank heaven during this last storm power flickered off for only a few minutes. I'm not sure why DTE is having a problem[[other than the obvious;storms cause power outages)but it seems to me power goes off more often than it should.

[jackie5275]

So you liked the phone monopoly, but don't like the electric distribution monopoly. Let's go for best two of three--how do you feel about the natural gas distribution monopoly?

Depending on where you live, specifically the old MichCon areas, your natural gas is distributed by the electric distribution monopoly. You get a twofer on that one.

[mikeg19]

I thankfully made it through the storm without losing power. I then came home from work yesterday to find out some idiot forgot to put the boom down on his truck and proceeded to rip down 8 power poles at 23 & Gratiot next to my condo. Unreal......

[wilderness]

I've three different experiences to provide as related to this thread.

I've a home in the Downriver suburbs. For some years the power would go out every time the wind blew [[albeit brief periods) or somebody sneezed. There is supposed to an alternate path in place for power lines [[at least in large Metro areas), whereas if the power is lost in one path, than an alternative backup path provides power.

About five years ago, a pole behind the house [[formerly an alley and in the backup path) was replaced and the majority of the former minor outages have been eliminated.

I've another home in Northern Michigan.

The power lines there are underground. There were regular power outages when the wind blew or somebody sneezed [[the energy company explained this as the result of tree limbs touching major power lines in the rural area). In two successive winters an underground relay [[circuit breaker) some 1600 feet away from my home required replacement. After the 2nd replacement the power outages ceased.

That Northern home has some very economical solar panels that provide heat only. The blower is manually operated [[no sensor when temperature output drops) and must be turned off manually. From 1993 thru 2002 the most use I was able to obtain form these panels was 3-4 hours a day, and ONLY in the Spring and Fall. Otherwise the panels were useless. That home faces the west and the panels were most effective in mid-to-late-afternoon when the sun was close to setting. These panels were installed in the mid-70s [[under an then Tax Credit) and I'm sure there are newer and more efficient designs.

Unfortunately and ten years later some very large winter trees [[Pines, Spruce and Balsams; a wind block) have grown to such height as to make the panels entirely useless.

So much for solar power in Michigan.

In addition, as truck driver from 1993-2002 in Northern Lower Michigan and I saw windmills [[or whatever the modern versions are called) scattered all over that virtually useless the majority of the year. Likely not even recovering the cost of installation.

[iheartthed]

As this article describes, the German power grid averages 21 minutes per year because it has buried its power lines. Yes, Germany is much more dense than the United states, and yes, it would be very expensive to bury power lines in all of the country's major metropolitan areas. However, such an investment would be hugely beneficial for decades.

During Hurricane Sandy I never lost power because the power lines in my area were buried. I think there were no more than 1.5 million people without power in the NYC area after the storm... A region of over 21 million residents. Having 500,000 people without power in Michigan for a thunderstorm seems excessive by comparison.

[sumas]

Well in Detroit, used be that above ground lines were easements, below were owner issues from the main line to house. All of that is moot. Monopolies are illegal but our government refuses to recognize our own laws.

Charity has nothing to do with DTE, they are vicious to the poor. Just want to point out that advertising the shit out there doesn't hold water. Both are tax deductible. One is just more fun then the other cause they get huge banks of free tickets and other perks. Helping people in need only fuels the soul. They are soulless blood suckers.

In case you wonder, all my utilities are paid and current, but I have many many neighbors that struggle to survive. DTE doesn't give a shit. Community pitches in to help. DTE,They make zero effort to compromise or help despite what they say.

Given DTE "altruism" for big civic affairs and total lack of concern for the poor, I never attend anything that has their name attached, which only means I attend small un-sponsored events. Doubt their freebies get taxed but should be.

[mikeg19]

During Hurricane Sandy I never lost power because the power lines in my area were buried. I think there were no more than 1.5 million people without power in the NYC area after the storm... A region of over 21 million residents. Having 500,000 people without power in Michigan for a thunderstorm seems excessive by comparison.

I think the only thing is cost associated with burying the lines vs how many times we in Michigan actually have legitimate threats to lose power. Considering we live in just about the safest area in the United States in relation to national disaster and inclement weather, I highly doubt the cost to bury thousands of miles of power lines is justifiable. Plus although I'm sure in the initial stages of its life the underground cables perform quite well, as they age any repairs that would need to be made would include digging up the ground and fixing them, which I'm sure is quite a bit more costly then a new utility pole.

Attached is an article showing some costs. It's about $600K a mile to put up utility poles and hook up electrical. It costs nearly ten times that amount to bury it apparently.

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.s...n_hampden.html

[iheartthed]

I think the only thing is cost associated with burying the lines vs how many times we in Michigan actually have legitimate threats to lose power. Considering we live in just about the safest area in the United States in relation to national disaster and inclement weather, I highly doubt the cost to bury thousands of miles of power lines is justifiable. Plus although I'm sure in the initial stages of its life the underground cables perform quite well, as they age any repairs that would need to be made would include digging up the ground and fixing them, which I'm sure is quite a bit more costly then a new utility pole.

Attached is an article showing some costs. It's about $600K a mile to put up utility poles and hook up electrical. It costs nearly ten times that amount to bury it apparently.

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.s...n_hampden.html

I get the sense that the power in Michigan goes out much more frequently than in some other states with major metropolitan areas with similar geographies. I haven't experienced a single power outage in the 8 years I've been in New York, during which I experienced two hurricane strength storms and several major blizzards. When I lived in Michigan the power would go out regularly -- on occasion several times per year.

I think the cost/benefit is a lot more nuanced than looking at construction costs. You also have to factor in productivity losses and maintenance costs since you probably need to repair above ground lines a lot more frequently.

[Hermod]

Well in Detroit, used be that above ground lines were easements, below were owner issues from the main line to house. All of that is moot. Monopolies are illegal but our government refuses to recognize our own laws.

Charity has nothing to do with DTE, they are vicious to the poor. Just want to point out that advertising the shit out there doesn't hold water. Both are tax deductible. One is just more fun then the other cause they get huge banks of free tickets and other perks. Helping people in need only fuels the soul. They are soulless blood suckers.

In case you wonder, all my utilities are paid and current, but I have many many neighbors that struggle to survive. DTE doesn't give a shit. Community pitches in to help. DTE,They make zero effort to compromise or help despite what they say.

Given DTE "altruism" for big civic affairs and total lack of concern for the poor, I never attend anything that has their name attached, which only means I attend small un-sponsored events. Doubt their freebies get taxed but should be.

OK, lets say that the CofD forms the Kwame Kirkpatrick Power Company. They buy the transmission lines from DTE and either build a power plant or buy power from the grid. They will provide electricity at cost [[no profit). They then take a very compassionate attitude towards those who cannot afford electricity. Now their receipts are less than their costs. They then have three alternatives:

1. All must pay for the electricity they use.
2. To help the unfortunate, the rest of the population have to pay higher rates.
3. City budget money from property taxes and income taxes needs to be transferred to bail out the electric company.

[Jimaz]

From time to time we ask why we don't bury power lines in Michigan. Today's Free Press has an article that addresses that question.

Legislature slams utilities for response to December ice storm, power outages in Lansing

... Legislators wondered why utilities weren’t working on putting more power lines underground. [Consumers Senior Vice President Dan] Malone said the cost would be $1 million per mile, for a total of $18 billion to $20 billion for Consumers. DTE’s Trevor Lauer, vice president of distribution, noted it would cost $55 billion to put DTE’s lines underground.

While power interruptions are less frequent with underground lines, outages last twice as long because it’s more difficult to identify the location of the problem, Lauer added....

I think there have been some recent technology advances that might make this cheaper. Today there are underground horizontal drilling rigs that don't require opening a whole trench to bury lines. I don't know whether that was taken into account for the above estimates.