Slate Magazine gay prescription for Detroit.

[A2Mike]

While the role of gays in Detroit's revival is hardly a new topic, Slate is suggesting a systematic and comprehensive approach. How much do you think that would contribute to the overall renewal of the city? Significantly? Marginally? Needs more specifics? http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2..._the_city.html

[313WX]

Well first, Michissippi will have to stop expressing so much hostility towards the gay community.

Part of the reason other cities and states have vibrant gay communities is because the governments and citizens there don't treat them like second class citizens.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I have never been treated or felt like a second-class citizen for being gay in Detroit or elsewhere in Michigan. The once in my life I was physically attacked- which I fought off- was in Chelsea, the gay center of NYC.

As for gays reviving Detroit, we are a part. But it's not our gayness that is an asset; it is entrepreneurship. Gay men and lesbians open a lot of restaurants and shops. Detroit should focus on expediting the permitting process for small businesses, and minimizing regulation on the operation of those businesses.

Also, since gay couples are less likely than straight ones to have kids [[although that is changing rapidly), we tend to have the time and money to eat out, volunteer, patronize the arts, and renovate old homes. But those things are more specific to young professionals, really, than to gay couples.

Lastly, the gay community itself is as diverse as any other. I can't arrange flowers to save my life; I play hockey and football.

Michigan will in the next few years legalize gay marriage. Then I will have no excuse not to find a husband and switch from apartment renter to homeowner.

[313WX]

I have never been treated or felt like a second-class citizen for being gay in Detroit or elsewhere in Michigan. The once in my life I was physically attacked- which I fought off- was in Chelsea, the gay center of NYC...

...I can't arrange flowers to save my life; I play hockey and football....

I'm glad you've never been a victim of hostility because of your sexuality, though I suspect the bolded has a lot to do with it, as you're not espousing stereotypical gay behavior out in the open, such as you say, "arranging flowers."

That said, that still doesn't change the fact that there's real, institutional hostility occurring here towards the gay community as a whole [[even if these things don't concern you specifically). For example, see all the trouble the lesbian moms in Hazel Park have to go through just to adopt a child through the state. Also, see the legislation the state of Michigan just passed when it came to domestic partner benefits for same-sex couples [[it took the feds to strike it down).

In fact, Detroit did have a somewhat burgeoning gay community in the 70s and 80s. But of course, they were chased out not just because of crime, but specifically because of hate crimes targeted towards them by Detroiters [[the same with the Chinese and Chinatown in the Cass Corridor).

[Hermod]

More victims for Detroit's GenPop to victimize.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

313, I am not arguing that we're at the forefront of gay rights. We are, in terms of legalities, where many of the Northeastern & Pacific states were five to ten years ago. But a few things I would point out:

1) People who act in an anti-gay manner [[I don't like the term "homophobic") are now largely self-ostracizing. Individuals and businesses stick up for gay people more often than they don't. Being outed for harassing gay people is now more humiliating than being outed as gay, a key cultural milestone we have passed in Michigan.

2) Public polling suggests that opinions in Michigan on gay marriage and adoption has, and continues, to shift towards legalization. I suspect that in the next 2-3 years we will have legal gay marriage and all the associated benefits. Is that too long to wait? Sure. But the light is at the end of the tunnel. Most people, even in Michigan, think of gay people as deviant and threatening. And with more and more people being out of the closet, everyone knows gay people.

[iheartthed]

I have never been treated or felt like a second-class citizen for being gay in Detroit or elsewhere in Michigan. The once in my life I was physically attacked- which I fought off- was in Chelsea, the gay center of NYC.

If you have a boyfriend you can marry him in New York. You can't marry him in Detroit. Just sayin'...

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Yes, gay marriage is legal in NY, but that's new. It'll be new here shortly, too. I've been in favor of legal gay marriage for 20 years. Before about 5 years ago [[and I still lived in NY then), most of my gay friends there used to say idiotic things like marriage was a "hetero-normative institution from a patriarchal society...". Legal gay marriage is overdue, new where it's legal, and soon-to-be where it's not.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Well first, Michissippi will have to stop expressing so much hostility towards the gay community.

Part of the reason other cities and states have vibrant gay communities is because the governments and citizens there don't treat them like second class citizens.

While I'm not holding my breath for an improvement state-wide, the article mentions actions taken by the city. Mayor-elect Duggan's mentioning the gay community in his election night speech is a good example. It's light years ahead of KK's thuggish homophobia. The city government needs to be actively welcoming, and the police sensitized to gay issues and safety.

I think a more pronounced and concentrated LGBT presence in the city would have a significant positive effect on redevelopment. But more importantly, I think it would be reflective of a more important factor. We talk a lot of the "young creatives" and entrepreneurs that Michigan has lost for so long, and how these groups are vital to the city's future. Its true that these groups gravitate to urban cores, but more so to open and diverse communities. If the LBGT community is not welcomed in Detroit, there are a lot of other urban oriented folks who likewise will not feel at home in the city. It's increasingly difficult to be a cutting edge and progressive growth oriented area with a homophobic feel towards it. That's why more and more companies are beginning to actively oppose legislation such and anti-marriage equality measures. Not only do those laws make it difficult to attract qualified gay employees, they turn off many qualified straight people too.

That being said, the article mentions downtown, midtown and Palmer Park as areas for gay investment. IMHO, I'd try the New Center. A nice mix of houses and apartments between Grand Blvd and Virginia Park; Seward street is getting a lot of redevelopment, and the sad and underutilized retail on Woodward just south of Grand has great buildings ripe for some creative shops/restaurants/bars in a nice compact area. And isn't the Woodward Bar still there? It might also encourage redevelopment north of Virginia Park towards Boston Edison. With the Lodge serving as barrier on the west, that area is actually compact enough to at some point be developed into its own stable neighborhood.

[Cliffy]

Well first, Michissippi will have to stop expressing so much hostility towards the gay community.

Part of the reason other cities and states have vibrant gay communities is because the governments and citizens there don't treat them like second class citizens.

That is complete bullshit.

[313WX]

That is complete bullshit.

I appreciate your thorough, well-reasoned argument there Cliffy.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

313, what makes you say that gay people here are treated like second class citizens? I am not aware of large waves of gay bashings here. We are able to get jobs and vote and buy property.

If you are referring to gay marriage/adoption rights, that fails to explain why places like New York and Massachusetts and California that have legal gay marriage were gay meccas, with very vibrant gay communities when their laws were just like ours, just a few years ago [[or in California's case, earlier this year).

If life were so bad here for gay people, I assure you, the thousands of happy & healthy homosexuals in Metro Detroit would not be here!

[Cliffy]

313, what makes you say that gay people here are treated like second class citizens? I am not aware of large waves of gay bashings here. We are able to get jobs and vote and buy property.

If you are referring to gay marriage/adoption rights, that fails to explain why places like New York and Massachusetts and California that have legal gay marriage were gay meccas, with very vibrant gay communities when their laws were just like ours, just a few years ago [[or in California's case, earlier this year).

If life were so bad here for gay people, I assure you, the thousands of happy & healthy homosexuals in Metro Detroit would not be here!

Michigan is very gay friendly. The whole "Michissippi" is more of an act by a few people here to throw the whole state of Michigan down the toilet and bitch about how much it sucks and that they are going to get out of the "cesspool".

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Michigan is gay friendly? It was positively painful to watch Michigan's governor twist and turn and not even be able to say one should not be fired for being gay.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/25/rick-snyder-gay-rights_n_4163329.html

Is he a homophobe without the guts to say so? Or not a homophobe and without the guts to say so? Leadership at its worst.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

The squirming of a politician does not a society make.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

The squirming of a politician does not a society make.

Correct, but the laws on the books of the state do reflect on the state and its society. When Michigan passes non-discrimination legislation statewide, things might be different.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Correct, but the laws on the books of the state do reflect on the state and its society. When Michigan passes non-discrimination legislation statewide, things might be different.

What, exactly, would be different? Is there a massive amount of unseen anti-gay discrimination? I am not saying there is none, and I am not opposed to some further anti-discrimination laws. But your post seems to indicate that Michigan is some sort of gay-suppressive state. It's not. And the states with the statewide laws also have their fair share of problems. Gay people are now widely accepted in society. We do not have gay Jim Crow laws in Michigan. Gay people are largely strong and independent, not suffering victims.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

What, exactly, would be different? Is there a massive amount of unseen anti-gay discrimination? I am not saying there is none, and I am not opposed to some further anti-discrimination laws. But your post seems to indicate that Michigan is some sort of gay-suppressive state. It's not. And the states with the statewide laws also have their fair share of problems. Gay people are now widely accepted in society. We do not have gay Jim Crow laws in Michigan. Gay people are largely strong and independent, not suffering victims.

I think its a pretty logical assumption to say that any state that cannot pass anti-discrimination legislation is by definition a "gay-suppressive state". It obviously means that there is a majority in the legislature that is unwilling to say its not OK to fire people, or deny them services, based on their sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation. If that's who's running the state and making the laws, how can it be perceived as gay friendly?

Wasn't it just two years ago that the GOP legislature and Governor banned cities and public institutions from providing domestic partner benefits, thereby eroding rights of the LGBT community? That was not an inconsequential or meaningless move, and made me ashamed of my home state.

[Scottathew]

Ten years ago I voted yes on Michigan Proposal 04-2.

Here I am now with a completely changed perspective. I still find the idea of a man and a man together as unappetizing, this is only because I simply don't prefer that. If I don't want to engage in a homosexual relationship, then I'm free not to, and there's no reason I need to make the decision for other people or try to restrict their happiness.

Back in those days I was a Fox News watching, right-wing talking point parroting, homophobic xenophobe.

I think many people are starting to change their minds in this state and country. Many people around my age [[30) at work openly talk about support for marriage rights for all. Many of us even openly talk about supporting the decriminalization of marijuana, whether we use it or not.

My support of equal marriage rights and wanting to make sexual orientation a protected class are one of the many things that makes me disagree with the republicans that I used to adore.

For those of you that think Michigan is still hateful, I think a second look may be in order. I think if the issue of gay rights [[marriage, anti-discrimination) were put on the ballot, they'd have a good chance of passing if the younger generation voted heavily.

Look at Troy, they ran Janice Daniels out of town, they RECALLED their sitting mayor who fiercely fought it off. Why? Because of homophobic remarks she made on Facebook before she was even mayor. She then doubled-down on her hate speech and tried to explain her hate for homosexuals and was REJECTED by the people of Troy. She then tried to run for council again and got REJECTED.

Times are changing. Especially as the older generation, that reliably votes is starting to pass away. These older voters that grew up calling black people negros and grew up hating anything homosexual are being replaced by younger voters, who care less about regulating the private lives of people, and have much less tolerance for hate and bigotry.

I know we've got a long way to go, but attitudes have shifted very far in the last decade.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

I do think that attitudes have shifted, which is one reason why I was especially disappointed with the domestic partner benefits legislation a couple of years ago. Seemed like it was going against the general trend. I just really hope the new administration in Detroit is more proactive and inclusive.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Once upon a time, the whole world didn't like gay people. Slowly, things changed. As we entered the 21st century, most people across the country began to accept gay people in their lives and communities. States began passing laws acknowledging and protecting a broad range of concepts known collectively as gay rights. There were setbacks along this path, but in places where the debate had been about whether consenting adults were allowed to have sex in their own home has shifted to whether the definition of a word can be applied to people of the same sex. The ball has been moved far down the field. Michigan is also far down that field. Some states have scored a touchdown, some a field goal. Despite political defeats in the past, a clear and growing majority favor acceptance of gay people in society, including with marriage rights and discrimination protection. The legislature might take a year or two- but probably not more- to catch up. A pro-marriage ballot initiative would now pass in Michigan, and I suspect with 60% of the vote. And before the law catches up, most Michiganders accept gay couples in their lives and communities and businesses. That is progress. No reason whatsoever to be depressed, in my opinion. And an accomplishment that midwestern states have that NY and California can't brag about: in Michigan, gay people live in the regular community. The "gay meccas" tend to have self-segregated communities. Gay people live overwhelmingly in certain neighborhoods in New York. In Michigan, we're comfortable enough in both our own skins and own community to live wherever we damn well please.

[313WX]

I do think that attitudes have shifted, which is one reason why I was especially disappointed with the domestic partner benefits legislation a couple of years ago. Seemed like it was going against the general trend. I just really hope the new administration in Detroit is more proactive and inclusive.

The attitude is beginning to change, but it's going to take a while I think before the gay community as a whole notices any large scale changes in this state and city's tolerance towards them, especially given that Michigan is know by most to be a very "traditionalist" state [[thus very slow to adjust to new social norms).

It's the same with whites in Metro Detroit and how they still view Detroit proper [[a place that's socially hostile to them), even though Coleman Young has been out of office for 20 years and that attitude is beginning to change.

[313WX]

I think its a pretty logical assumption to say that any state that cannot pass anti-discrimination legislation is by definition a "gay-suppressive state". It obviously means that there is a majority in the legislature that is unwilling to say its not OK to fire people, or deny them services, based on their sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation. If that's who's running the state and making the laws, how can it be perceived as gay friendly?

Wasn't it just two years ago that the GOP legislature and Governor banned cities and public institutions from providing domestic partner benefits, thereby eroding rights of the LGBT community? That was not an inconsequential or meaningless move, and made me ashamed of my home state.

Good point.

It is the people who elect these representatives into office.

The fact that most of them were reelected must mean that their electorate base has no problem with their representatives bringing forth discriminatory legislation.

[Don K]

Once upon a time, the whole world didn't like gay people. Slowly, things changed. As we entered the 21st century, most people across the country began to accept gay people in their lives and communities.

I agree with you here. At least in the areas where I go [[primarily Oakland and Wayne counties), on a person-to-person basis gay people and couples are a non-event.

States began passing laws acknowledging and protecting a broad range of concepts known collectively as gay rights.

Except not Michigan.

There were setbacks along this path, but in places where the debate had been about whether consenting adults were allowed to have sex in their own home has shifted to whether the definition of a word can be applied to people of the same sex.

Note that in Michigan MCL 750.158-750.159 [[the sodomy law) remains on the books, despite the fact that it is non-enforceable in the wake of the Lawrence decision. This says to me that it is the judgement of the legislature that I should not be allowed to have sex in the privacy of my own home, and in fact should be imprisoned for 15 years for this act.

The ball has been moved far down the field. Michigan is also far down that field.

Again, on a personal basis, I agree with you. On a legal basis the answer is just no.

Some states have scored a touchdown, some a field goal.

And Michigan has yet to score.

Despite political defeats in the past, a clear and growing majority favor acceptance of gay people in society, including with marriage rights and discrimination protection. The legislature might take a year or two- but probably not more- to catch up.

Not as long as the Republicans are in control of at least one house of the legislature. The West Michigan clique that pulls the strings on the GOP as well as Republican primary voters will ensure that.

A pro-marriage ballot initiative would now pass in Michigan, and I suspect with 60% of the vote.

I agree, although maybe not about the margin.

And before the law catches up, most Michiganders accept gay couples in their lives and communities and businesses. That is progress. No reason whatsoever to be depressed, in my opinion. And an accomplishment that midwestern states have that NY and California can't brag about: in Michigan, gay people live in the regular community. The "gay meccas" tend to have self-segregated communities. Gay people live overwhelmingly in certain neighborhoods in New York. In Michigan, we're comfortable enough in both our own skins and own community to live wherever we damn well please.

No argument there. Unfortunately, any legal progress in Michigan will require a complete Democratic takeover of the state government [[unlikely) or a series of expensive ballot petitions.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

The "gay meccas" tend to have self-segregated communities. Gay people live overwhelmingly in certain neighborhoods in New York. In Michigan, we're comfortable enough in both our own skins and own community to live wherever we damn well please.

In the "gay meccas", we're absolutely comfortable enough to live "wherever" we damn well please. Some of us prefer to live in a gayborhood and others do not. Here in the Bay Area, many of my friends live in Oakland or Berkeley or other points east, north or south. Others live in San Francisco. Of the majority who live in SF, however, most do NOT live in the Castro. I have lived in 5 different houses in the Bay Area; three in SF and two in Oakland and zero in the Castro. While I don't live in the Castro, I do tend to socialize there with friends.

The advantages of a gayborhood go well beyond being a place to live. It raises the profile of the community, and it gives the community options that otherwise do not exist. It's nice to meet friends for a drink at a bar and if you want a change of pace for a second drink, have the option down the block rather than across town. It opens up business opportunities gay-owned and gay friendly businesses because there is a concentration of customers. A gay business owner in a gayborhood can display a rainbow flag, but if his business is in Livonia I doubt he would. Just because you can live in Warren or Waterford if you please, you probably can't walk down the street to a restaurant where you will find tables full of same sex couples who are not hesitant to appear as a couple.

For people struggling with their sexuality, especially young people its a haven where they might for the first time not feel like an outsider.

Its really not different from why a Latino/a might want to settle in SW Detroit. Unfortunately, Detroit does not currently have that option for the LGBT community.