"Don't Detroit Virginia"

[steve from virginia]

First of all, there is a question as to whether Detroit is eligible for bankruptcy.

Second, seniority in bankruptcy here is clouded by the jurisdictional reach of the State of Michigan. Bankruptcy is an administrative procedure and thereby subordinate to state law.

Third, seniority in bankruptcy is further clouded by the likelihood of criminal behavior on the part of claimants. This is an issue because of the widespread criminality on the part of banks, particularly JP Morgan-Chase. There is also the possibility [[likelihood) of ongoing criminality on the part of the EM. A criminal cannot use bankruptcy as a means to further his activities or hold ill-gotten gains.

Fourth, the real issue is not Detroit's insolvency but Michigan's. The entire thrust of the Detroit bankruptcy is to force obligations of the state onto Detroit where these can be discharged favorably onto it [[Detroit). Otherwise, Detroit's pension obligation will adhere to the State ... as they adhere right now.

This is the real bottom line: Detroit is ruined but so is Michigan which is likely in worse financial shape. I don't have the figures in front of me, but Michigan is another big, rust-belt, behemoth like Illinois and New York, with vast public infrastructure costs -- of which public employees are a fraction -- these costs have ballooned and cannot be met, without a Federal bailout.

Right now, the State is paying Detroit's ongoing government expenses: public safety, teachers, bond coupons, etc. They can do so because they [[Michigan) can borrow as Detroit cannot.

BTW: Virginia is broke, too. It is a 'right to work state' with no public unions ... but tens of thousands of miles of costly roads that do not return anything for their use ... as well as the hundreds of billion$ in debt taken on to create them.

[davewindsor]

No money has been taken from workers. They never possessed the money in question. The government merely has multiple creditors after less total money than is owed to everyone. If there were enough money to pay everyone, bankruptcy will be denied. If not, pension payments to former employees are lower on the totem poll than loan and bond payments. Same thing for any gov't or business bankruptcy. Agree or disagree, that is the bankruptcy law [[unlike the automakers, Detroit will not be eligible for TARP funds to pay the pension obligations before bankruptcy). If you feel pensions should come first, I suggest lobbying Congress to amend the bankruptcy laws. Although, if that change did pass, good luck to any city in getting any money from a bank.

What he said.

Third, seniority in bankruptcy is further clouded by the likelihood of criminal behavior on the part of claimants. This is an issue because of the widespread criminality on the part of banks, particularly JP Morgan-Chase. There is also the possibility [[likelihood) of ongoing criminality on the part of the EM. A criminal cannot use bankruptcy as a means to further his activities or hold ill-gotten gains.

Where did this crap come from? Cite your source. If criminality occurred, then that means criminal charges were laid and a prosecutor actually believed there was a reasonable chance of conviction in a criminal court. How do you prove criminal charges in a non-criminal court when no charges have been laid by the police to begin with??

How do you even prove criminal charges based on a likelihood?? The standard for a criminal charge is a lot higher. You have to prove criminality by JP Morgan-Chase or the claimants of the bankruptcy or the EM "beyond a reasonable doubt" not likelihood. Hasn't happened because neither the police nor a prosecutor believes it can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt, so you're talking crap.

Fourth, the real issue is not Detroit's insolvency but Michigan's. The entire thrust of the Detroit bankruptcy is to force obligations of the state onto Detroit where these can be discharged favorably onto it [[Detroit). Otherwise, Detroit's pension obligation will adhere to the State ... as they adhere right now.

That's up to a bankruptcy judge, and I don't think that's going to happen because a bankruptcy judge is there to get the city's books in order, not make it worse. This is what bankruptcy courts do all the time in the private sector. Do you have a legal precedent saying otherwise?? It would defeat the purpose of why they legislated bankruptcy law to begin with.

This is the real bottom line: Detroit is ruined but so is Michigan which is likely in worse financial shape. I don't have the figures in front of me, but Michigan is another big, rust-belt, behemoth like Illinois and New York, with vast public infrastructure costs -- of which public employees are a fraction -- these costs have ballooned and cannot be met, without a Federal bailout.

Ridiculous. More Tea party garbage.

[steve from virginia]

You aren't paying attention. JP Morgan-Chase is a criminal enterprise, much like the Cosa Nostra. Take a minute and Google, "JP Morgan-Chase criminal activities".

Here's one: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...99K00S20131021

Part of their scam is to bribe muni bosses in order to make 'deals' favorable to the bank ... and ruinous to the communities. Here's another:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=aF_f8gLLNvn0

That's just one of the mega-banks. There are two dozen of them, all have engaged in price fixing [[Libor scandal and ongoing fixing of forex markets, oil markets) bribery, collusion, trading with customers' funds, stealing from fiduciary accounts and insider trading.

Fast forward to a few weeks ago and Orr was pushing for a deal between Detroit and Barclays over cash flow from one of the Detroit casinos. Barclays is another crooked bank this one in the UK. "Why Barclays and not another bank?" you might ask. The answer is that Barclays put the most cash under the table: this is how banks and government 'agencies' interact, if you believe otherwise you are naive.

Orr is an agent of the banks not Detroit; the state not Detroit. His job is to get Michigan off the hook just like his job was to get the Feds off the hook w/ the auto company bankruptcy.

Also, you need to better understand the jurisdictional limits to the various courts. Bankruptcy courts are administrative, at the lowest rung of the Federal judiciary food chain. Administrative courts hear trademark and patent cases as well as CFR disputes involving Federal rules and disputes involving agencies such as Social Security and Medicare, etc. Above them are Federal Courts that hear matters involving US Code- and Constitution: there are Federal Magistrates, District Courts, Courts of Appeals and the Supreme Court. Parallel jurisdiction are the state courts which are -- with the Federal courts -- constitutional courts. Administrative courts are rule courts, they are subordinate to state law where applicable.

Likewise, any citizen in Detroit can petition the Federal District Court to appoint a special master to oversee any bankruptcy action so that it conforms to US Code as well as serve the interest of justice. This demand has not been made but it certainly shall be.

Orr has a very short window before people start asking pointed questions about his lavish spending ... like where is the money coming from.

Because the State court in Michigan has already ruled [[somewhat confusingly) it is likely the jurisdiction issue will make its way to the US Supreme Court: there is no glamor to 'saving' Detroit as there was to 'saving' GM or Chrysler. The city is already conceded by the establishment to the voracious banks. So ... it's not up to the bankruptcy judge at all.

Save your faith: bankruptcy cannot 'save' Detroit, only divert what remains of Detroit funds to the bankers ... discharge as much of the state's obligations onto Detroit taxpayers as possible.

As for Tea Party, they are working for the governor and in the state legislature.

[poobert]

Well, Gameguy, I have no problem articulating the limited-government agenda of the Tea Party, but that isn't what I sought to achieve by responding to Poobert. He used ridiculously harsh words with very specific meanings to describe political views that he doesn't agree with. I was wondering why. If I called someone a Nazi [[which I have never done) because they supported a different candidate than me, I don't think the appropriate reaction is to demand that they state why they support that candidate. The onus is on the name-caller to justify the name-calling. If you would like a discussion of Tea Party politics, start that thread and I will respond there.

The onus isn't on me for anything. I don't owe you shit, Sally. However, while eastsideal has summed everything up quite succinctly, I'll play your demented parlor games for a moment.

You've already answered yourself. The Tea Party is so decentralized that while you dance around your Oxbridge formalities, the rest of your movement screams about the unpleasantries that you conveniently ignore.

I wasn't endorsing any candidate or party. I was merely making an observation. Your buddies have had two miserably failed presidential elections yet you manage to terrify the American populace to the point where you can't win anything outside of some gerrymandered subdivisions. I don't think the President is doing a great job, either.

To objectively answer your earlier question - which was already done, and ignored, the Tea Party has embraced an ideology of "restoring" and "taking back" the United States based largely on some vague historical and religious manifest destiny. Check.

Interesting this noise arose only after the election of President Obama. Under President George W. Bush, Yale man, Oil man, plutocrat, warrior president, the Tea Party was conspicuously absent. Huh. Huh. Curious!

The party is almost entirely, if not entirely, white and middle class [[they key component of any successful fascist movement). Limited government is all well and good except when it comes to gay rights and abortion, upon which it is apparently the state's mission is to seek and destroy, which you ignored entirely. The Tea Party also seems to conveniently to focus on limiting government [[i.e. benefits) which do not apply to said white middle class. Regarding the corporatism of fascist regimes, the whole cabal seems quite content with union busting and corporate laissez faire-capitalism. For an alleged populist movement, it is quite bipolar.

I'm also white, Christian, and in the military. And I fucking resent how your your storm troopers trotted out to the monuments after you crashed the government and coyly acted confused when everything was closed. Nothing screams "fascist" like disingenuously embracing the military, though.

It's a circular argument, though. Since the movement is so decentralized you can continue to argue how you and your imaginary friends would never conceive such atrocities. However, perception is reality - and the reality is that the majority of Americans have perceived your ilk as a bunch of wild-eyed snake-handlers. You can't win Virginia. You're fucked.

[davewindsor]

You aren't paying attention. JP Morgan-Chase is a criminal enterprise, much like the Cosa Nostra. Take a minute and Google, "JP Morgan-Chase criminal activities".

Here's one: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...99K00S20131021

Part of their scam is to bribe muni bosses in order to make 'deals' favorable to the bank ... and ruinous to the communities. Here's another:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=aF_f8gLLNvn0

That's just one of the mega-banks. There are two dozen of them, all have engaged in price fixing [[Libor scandal and ongoing fixing of forex markets, oil markets) bribery, collusion, trading with customers' funds, stealing from fiduciary accounts and insider trading.

Fast forward to a few weeks ago and Orr was pushing for a deal between Detroit and Barclays over cash flow from one of the Detroit casinos. Barclays is another crooked bank this one in the UK. "Why Barclays and not another bank?" you might ask. The answer is that Barclays put the most cash under the table: this is how banks and government 'agencies' interact, if you believe otherwise you are naive.

Orr is an agent of the banks not Detroit; the state not Detroit. His job is to get Michigan off the hook just like his job was to get the Feds off the hook w/ the auto company bankruptcy.

Also, you need to better understand the jurisdictional limits to the various courts. Bankruptcy courts are administrative, at the lowest rung of the Federal judiciary food chain. Administrative courts hear trademark and patent cases as well as CFR disputes involving Federal rules and disputes involving agencies such as Social Security and Medicare, etc. Above them are Federal Courts that hear matters involving US Code- and Constitution: there are Federal Magistrates, District Courts, Courts of Appeals and the Supreme Court. Parallel jurisdiction are the state courts which are -- with the Federal courts -- constitutional courts. Administrative courts are rule courts, they are subordinate to state law where applicable.

Likewise, any citizen in Detroit can petition the Federal District Court to appoint a special master to oversee any bankruptcy action so that it conforms to US Code as well as serve the interest of justice. This demand has not been made but it certainly shall be.

Orr has a very short window before people start asking pointed questions about his lavish spending ... like where is the money coming from.

Because the State court in Michigan has already ruled [[somewhat confusingly) it is likely the jurisdiction issue will make its way to the US Supreme Court: there is no glamor to 'saving' Detroit as there was to 'saving' GM or Chrysler. The city is already conceded by the establishment to the voracious banks. So ... it's not up to the bankruptcy judge at all.

Save your faith: bankruptcy cannot 'save' Detroit, only divert what remains of Detroit funds to the bankers ... discharge as much of the state's obligations onto Detroit taxpayers as possible.

As for Tea Party, they are working for the governor and in the state legislature.

Wow, what kind of kool aid have been drinking?! Is this what being constantly tea bagged in Virginia does to people? You clearly haven't been paying attention to what I said.

The "Cosa Nostra" in the US means "A secret criminal organization operating mainly in the United States and Italy and engaged in illegal activities such as gambling, drug-dealing, protection, and prostitution." http://www.thefreedictionary.com/La+Cosa+Nostra

Is JP Morgan Chase a "secret criminal organization" involved in the above illegal activities?

No, it's been a public corporation since 1940, not a "secret" organization/enterprise. https://www.jpmorgan.com/pages/jpmor...faq#Question_4 It was founded in Manhattan in 1799. In World War I, it was involved "in placing more than $3 billion worth of contracts with American producers for the weapons, ammunition and goods the Allies needed."

It was involved in everything from financing railroads in the US to financing the Wright brothers and Thomas Edison in Detroit.

As for the above mentioned criminal activities like the Cosa Nostra, if JP Morgan were a criminal organization like the Cosa Nostra, they would be shut down under the RICO Act: if the state can prove a criminal organization, then under the RICO Act, the state can shut them down and seize their assets. This over 200 year old US based organization hasn't been shut down by the RICO Act like the cosa nostra/mafia, has it? Not only that, their corporate officers are held criminally liable for the criminal actions of a corporation under the Sarbanes-Oxley Act, so what's the benefit of being a member of public criminal organization?? What you're saying is just so ridiculous.

Being part of a criminal probe in selling loans is not the same as a being criminally charged and convicted. The US government loves to probe the world, so does that mean the whole world is automatically criminal??? They've been probing tens of millions of people across the world according to Wikileaks. Here's an article from a few months ago where the NSA has been tapping 35 government leaders cell phones including the German Chancellor Angela Merkel http://www.windsorstar.com/news/spyi...713/story.html

I guess because the Chancellor of Germany is being probed by the US Government that the Republic of Germany must be a criminal organization too by your reasoning, right?

Criminal charges were not laid in the selling of loans, so that article is irrelevant.

As for the second article about Jefferson County, it's also not relevant. You're comparing apples and oranges. Jefferson County is the apple. Detroit is the orange. The article is not relevant because the article is not about Detroit. To even attempt to stop Detroit's bankruptcy proceeding, your article would have to be about Detroit, not Jefferson County. IT'S NOT RELEVANT!

Not only that, but the article clearly states that nobody was charged and it's still just a probe:
"The SEC and Justice Department are probing whether the banks that financed Jefferson County conspired nationwide to fix prices for derivatives, violating the Sherman Antitrust Act, according to target letters sent to bank employees.
Criminal Charges
At least four JPMorgan bankers who worked for the bank at the time Jefferson County deals were done, including Douglas MacFaddin, the former head of municipal derivative sales, have been told by the U.S. Attorney's office that they could face criminal charges, records show. MacFaddin, who was fired in March, couldn't be reached for comment. "

Saying someone "could" face criminal charges and being criminal charged are two COMPLETELY different things. Not only is it irrelevant because the article is talking about Jefferson County and not Detroit, but the US Attorney's office does not believe they can prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt to lay criminal charges.

If you think I'm going to accept your ridiculous argument that if I don't accept this crap I'm naive, then you're very naive to think I would accept such a specious argument.

You haven't offered valid responses to my requests for legal precedents. You haven't cited relevant articles that deal with Detroit. Your argument is one BIG FAIL.

Bankruptcy will save Detroit. You definitely haven't proven otherwise.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

The onus isn't on me for anything. I don't owe you shit, Sally. However, while eastsideal has summed everything up quite succinctly, I'll play your demented parlor games for a moment..

Logic and charm! You're the total package, Poobert!

[leapfrog]

The onus isn't on me for anything. I don't owe you shit, Sally. However, while eastsideal has summed everything up quite succinctly, I'll play your demented parlor games for a moment.

You've already answered yourself. The Tea Party is so decentralized that while you dance around your Oxbridge formalities, the rest of your movement screams about the unpleasantries that you conveniently ignore.

I wasn't endorsing any candidate or party. I was merely making an observation. Your buddies have had two miserably failed presidential elections yet you manage to terrify the American populace to the point where you can't win anything outside of some gerrymandered subdivisions. I don't think the President is doing a great job, either.

To objectively answer your earlier question - which was already done, and ignored, the Tea Party has embraced an ideology of "restoring" and "taking back" the United States based largely on some vague historical and religious manifest destiny. Check.

Interesting this noise arose only after the election of President Obama. Under President George W. Bush, Yale man, Oil man, plutocrat, warrior president, the Tea Party was conspicuously absent. Huh. Huh. Curious!

The party is almost entirely, if not entirely, white and middle class [[they key component of any successful fascist movement). Limited government is all well and good except when it comes to gay rights and abortion, upon which it is apparently the state's mission is to seek and destroy, which you ignored entirely. The Tea Party also seems to conveniently to focus on limiting government [[i.e. benefits) which do not apply to said white middle class. Regarding the corporatism of fascist regimes, the whole cabal seems quite content with union busting and corporate laissez faire-capitalism. For an alleged populist movement, it is quite bipolar.

I'm also white, Christian, and in the military. And I fucking resent how your your storm troopers trotted out to the monuments after you crashed the government and coyly acted confused when everything was closed. Nothing screams "fascist" like disingenuously embracing the military, though.

It's a circular argument, though. Since the movement is so decentralized you can continue to argue how you and your imaginary friends would never conceive such atrocities. However, perception is reality - and the reality is that the majority of Americans have perceived your ilk as a bunch of wild-eyed snake-handlers. You can't win Virginia. You're fucked.

Damn Poobert. You are my hero! Very well stated...
...oh, and I didn't mind the opening statement one bit!

[G-DDT]

Commonwealth state or not, I don't want anyone "Virginian"-ing Detroit-don't think I could tolerate a Liberty University extension here.
I saw a similar region-hate-fear-mongering tactic done in South Bend, IN. Some A-holes had some aggressive pogrom against the homeless in which they put up large signs saying "Bringing the Homeless in will turn it into an East Gary" [[Gary being the run-down Detroit equivalent west of there).
Sorry to comment on an old site, but I came across this searching for the reference to "Nazis" [[as in "Hmmm, I wonder how many Nazi war criminals actually took up residence in Michigan"-things that pop to mind when I think about how Baron von Underbite of the Venture Bros. lived in the "region of Underland bordering Michigan" with Girl Hitler. Thank you Adult Swim for agitating my cognizant focus). There was that one guy caught living in Warren during the 1950's.