Grosse Pointe vs. Bloomfield Hills: best days behind them?

**Detroitnerd** · November-06-13, 05:15 PM

Hmmm. A2M, I gotta say that your remarks ring true, and yet ... it can't all be proximity to Detroit. As somebody familiar with marketing toward millennials, which is probably the most studied and market-tested generation ever, I see where the Pointes might not rate very well with them, for instance. And there is some baggage that goes with a certain reputation for ... putting it as politely as possible, a lack of tolerance and diversity. Doesn't it just seem a bit pat to blame Detroit ... yet again?

Just for instance, Ferndale borders Detroit and attracts young people who enjoy going into the city, if not living there. Is it perhaps also that Grosse Pointe traditionally attracts people who don't enjoy going into the city?

**Bham1982** · November-06-13, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Just for instance, Ferndale borders Detroit and attracts young people who enjoy going into the city, if not living there. Is it perhaps also that Grosse Pointe traditionally attracts people who don't enjoy going into the city?

Ferndale enjoys a very strategic location in the heart of the region. You can use 696, Woodward, Lodge and I-75 to go almost anywhere. In contrast, the Pointes are far from everything except for downtown, and not along any freeways.

**313WX** · November-06-13, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Ferndale enjoys a very strategic location in the heart of the region. You can use 696, Woodward, Lodge and I-75 to go almost anywhere. In contrast, the Pointes are far from everything except for downtown, and not along any freeways.

All of the Grosse Pointes are less than 5 minutes from I-94 [[about as long as it takes to get from all of the freeways near Ferndale).

**Bham1982** · November-06-13, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

All of the Grosse Pointes are less than 5 minutes from I-94 [[about as long as it takes to get from all of the freeways near Ferndale).

I don't think that's true. 696, the most strategic freeway in the region, forms the northern border of Ferndale, and is accessed by fast-moving Woodward. I-94, nowhere near as strategic, doesn't run in the Pointes, is accessed via much slower local roads, and sits in the ghetto. And Ferndale is surrounded by "useful things" on most sides [[downtown Royal Oak, people's jobs in Southfield, etc.) while the Pointes surrounded by water to the east, slums to the west, and perfectly fine but anonymous Macomb bungalows to the north. Where are the shops, restaurants and services?

**313WX** · November-06-13, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I-94...sits in the ghetto.

You mean to tell me we will have to drive through DETOILET to reach the nearest expressway!? That just won't do!!! After all, CRIME and POVERTY may jump out of nowhere and latch onto our moving luxury car!!!

**Goose** · November-06-13, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Where are the shops, restaurants and services?

WTF? they just put a brand new BW3 at 9 and Harper, what more do you want? its very close to GP.

**Gistok** · November-07-13, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I don't think that's true. 696, the most strategic freeway in the region, forms the northern border of Ferndale, and is accessed by fast-moving Woodward. I-94, nowhere near as strategic, doesn't run in the Pointes, is accessed via much slower local roads, and sits in the ghetto. And Ferndale is surrounded by "useful things" on most sides [[downtown Royal Oak, people's jobs in Southfield, etc.) while the Pointes surrounded by water to the east, slums to the west, and perfectly fine but anonymous Macomb bungalows to the north. Where are the shops, restaurants and services?

Bham1982.... sorry but I call BS on that claim.... the 48224 zipcode... the Detroit one you have to drive partway thru to get to get to I-94 has Cadieux, Outer Drive/Whittier, Moross and [[in 48236) Vernier to get to I-94... last time I checked the Detroit part of that area may now be majority African-American... but I would hardly call it Ghetto. And your I-696 claim is also rather spurious... half of it goes thru Macomb County?? The folks in the Pointes have quite a bit of shopping choices along Mack Ave, and farther north, along Harper and Jefferson Ave. It's not the wasteland you make it out to be. Only thing missing is an upscale mall.

**Detroitnerd** · November-07-13, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Ferndale enjoys a very strategic location in the heart of the region. You can use 696, Woodward, Lodge and I-75 to go almost anywhere. In contrast, the Pointes are far from everything except for downtown, and not along any freeways.

First off, the Lodge goes nowhere near Ferndale. But I bet lots of folks in Ferndale wish it did. 'Cause, you see, my point is that I know a lot of youngish people, mostly couples, many with children, who love Detroit but want a house beyond the city line. And I believe that plays into why they choose Ferndale, which, as you point out, is a hop-skip-and-jump from downtown Detroit.

I could be wrong, but I've generally thought that the appeal of the Pointes had to do with exclusivity and disconnectedness from Detroit in general.

**Bham1982** · November-07-13, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

I could be wrong, but I've generally thought that the appeal of the Pointes had to do with exclusivity and disconnectedness from Detroit in general.

I don't understand why the relative appeal would be based on isolation from things. Obviously the Pointes are desirable, but I think most people would agree there's a big difference in property values between the Pointes and the Oakland County wealth centers.

If it isn't the relative isolation from amenities, and then relative proximity to undesirables, then why do the property values lag? Is it just people have the WASP image and perceive it as stuffy?

As a relatively young person who has lived in major cities, I want a place with good restaurants, groceries and services. I don't perceive the Pointes as a place where I'm going to be able to find, say, a selection of imported items in grocers, or contemporary furniture stores, or places to go out in free time.

If you live anywhere along the Woodward corridor from Ferndale up to the Bloomfields, you have the widest array of "stuff" at your fingertips relative to anywhere else in MI, which is why property values are higher.

**jt1** · November-07-13, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I don't understand why the relative appeal would be based on isolation from things. Obviously the Pointes are desirable, but I think most people would agree there's a big difference in property values between the Pointes and the Oakland County wealth centers.

If it isn't the relative isolation from amenities, and then relative proximity to undesirables, then why do the property values lag? Is it just people have the WASP image and perceive it as stuffy?

As a relatively young person who has lived in major cities, I want a place with good restaurants, groceries and services. I don't perceive the Pointes as a place where I'm going to be able to find, say, a selection of imported items in grocers, or contemporary furniture stores, or places to go out in free time.

If you live anywhere along the Woodward corridor from Ferndale up to the Bloomfields, you have the widest array of "stuff" at your fingertips relative to anywhere else in MI, which is why property values are higher.

I'm really starting to think that Bham is a paid shill for Oakland County. Heaven forbid you say anything negative about the fancy part of OC.

We get it, you think that Birmingham and the Bloomfields are the greatest thing in the world. That doesn't mean that no other places offer what others are looking for. I have a feeling, given the wealth and relatively frugal ways of the few GPers I know that they aren't interested in having a store that offers 100 varieties of specialty olive oil.

**bailey** · November-07-13, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

As a relatively young person who has lived in major cities, I want a place with good restaurants, groceries and services. I don't perceive the Pointes as a place where I'm going to be able to find, say, a selection of imported items in grocers, or contemporary furniture stores, or places to go out in free time.

From what you're posting here, its clear it's been decades since you've done anything but drive by the exits for GP on 94.

stop posting on this topic. you are posting straight up, unadulterated, bullshit.

**Bham1982** · November-07-13, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

First off, the Lodge goes nowhere near Ferndale. .

The Lodge is less than 5 minutes from Ferndale. Less than two miles away; just take 8 Mile.

**Detroitnerd** · November-07-13, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

The Lodge is less than 5 minutes from Ferndale. Less than two miles away; just take 8 Mile.

If you live at Woodward Heights, to get to the Lodge you have to drive down to Woodward, take Woodward over to the Lodge, drive quite some time, get to the left, and, at any busy time of day, spend about 10 minutes in the left merging your way onto Lodge southbound. Is that "convenient"? Hey, if you think it is, fine, Ferndale is the Azores of the Woodward axis.

But all this "strategic" claptrap seems a silly way to call a spade a spade: Ferndale is close to Detroit. And that's my point, really. Ferndale has plenty of residents who are especially engaged with the city but, for various reasons, wanted to live outside it. Trust me on this, they're not in Ferndale to be closer to Somerset. They're on the cusp of the city because they want that proximity to Detroit.

As to the matter of finding value in isolation from things, that relates to a point I was trying to make earlier: I think younger people don't want to be isolated from things. I think older people didn't mind being in their bubble. So I don't think we disagree there.

That said, the way you word things like "proximity to undesirables" is one of the most disgusting things I think I've read on this board. I've been stranded in tough neighborhoods before and found ... nice people ... who helped me ... without question. There are good people and bad people everywhere. When you talk about "undesirables," I know exactly which kind you are. I'm actually very glad you would never live in my neighborhood.

**JenniferL** · November-07-13, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

The Lodge is less than 5 minutes from Ferndale. Less than two miles away; just take 8 Mile.

Most Ferndalers take I-75 when they drive downtown Detroit. One can also go straight down Woodward. As for the Lodge, the easiest way to access it from Ferndale is to take Livernois south, drive through Detroit [[nice neighborhoods) for a couple of miles and then onto the Lodge just south of the University of Detroit.

**Jason** · November-06-13, 06:06 PM

I think Grosse Pointe's future depends on downtown. If the greater downtown area grows then I can imagine GP would be very attractive to middle aged people who have high paying jobs downtown. It's a shorter drive than bloomfield, and it's more walkable which someone used to doing business downtown might appreciate. But I don't think there's going to be enough stuff in macomb county to keep GP rich.

**Patrick** · November-06-13, 06:36 PM

I always thought the population of Bloomfield Hills is aging much faster than in GP. At least, from everything I have seen and read, BH has an older population. I could be wrong.

I also suppose some people think that GP is far more isolated from "everything" than the west side enclaves. Everyone points to the lack of nightlife and shopping in GP. One other view is that GP has a much stronger connection to Detroit than Bloomfield Hills and the other wealthy west side communities.

Another thing that people tend to overlook is the amount of liquid wealth in the Grosser Pointes, compared to elsewhere in the Detroit area. Bloomfield probably has higher annual income and earning power, but I bet there is more liquid wealth in the Grosse Pointes, even in 2013.

**Ben** · November-06-13, 07:43 PM

I've lived in Grosse Pointe Woods on Lochmoor for 19 years. Before that I lived in Harper Woods for 23 years on Eastwood. I think that when I moved to Grosse Pointe Woods in '94 it was really the peak of the area's wealth. In fact I paid about 125,000 more for my house than it is worth now. In 1994. At least I moved from Harper Woods, my old house there is worth so much less than I paid for it. My street has many families like mine whose kids graduated in the 90's and decided not to move. I've heard some people mention that GP has a very WASP feel and I wanted to say that that is really centered in GPF and GPS, when I moved to GPW I was Catholic and my kids went to Catholic schools and no one ever mentioned it to me. In order to attract new people it is a stereotype we must break.

**Ben** · November-07-13, 09:53 AM

Mark,
Well GP has gone down in the sense that almost every resident has lost significant value on their house in the last 20 years. People still buy houses here, a lot of doctors for St. John and people that work downtown and have kids. The mega mansions are having a very hard time selling. In fact one of my favorite houses is 211 Vendome which has had a very hard time selling. People mostly send their kids to public schools, they are good if you are a good parent to your kids and push them for the best. Some of the wealthiest people go to University Liggett School which I think offers a pretty good education. My kids went to St. Peter and Bishop Gallagher in Harper Woods and I went to Notre Dame myself. I feel like the WASP factor is harmful because people don't feel like they would fit in in Grosse Pointe.

**EastsideAl** · November-07-13, 03:14 AM

I wonder if Bham has actually spent much time around the Pointes? The Pointes are actually pretty self-contained. Most of my relatives who live out there rarely leave, except to go to events downtown. They do most of their shopping, etc., on Kercheval or on Mack out past Moross. Part of the reason that there are so few restaurants and bars, and why they often struggle in GP, is that Pointers have not generally been a big going-out crowd. They have always tended to stay home at night, eat with their families, etc.

**GPCharles** · November-07-13, 09:26 AM

The amazing thing about GP is how many people are 3rd, 4th and 5th generation. They head off to college, go elsewhere for 1st jobs, but many come back when they start to raise children. I have lived here for over 50 years and have lived in a grand total of 3 different homes, including my parents' house.

**CleveBill** · November-07-13, 10:16 AM

I've noticed that people from the Grosse Pointes will describe themselves as being "from Detroit," but folk from Birmingham or Bloomfield want to make a distinction between themselves and the city; which is ironic seeing that outside of Michigan everyone knows the name Grosse Pointe, but no one without tied to the Detroit metro area has even hear of the B's

**DTWflyer** · November-07-13, 02:29 PM

I do not understand a lot of the statements being thrown around in this thread.
1. Realize they everyone has different tastes and priorities in choosing a community and home to live in; what you may like someone else may not and vice-versa
2. People at different life stages have different priorities in home selection [[Grosse Pointe or Bloomfield may not appeal to young professionals, but they appeal to older families
3. Not everyone works downtown or not everyone works in Oakland County

The argument is silly because both are highly desirable communities.

**DetroitPlanner** · November-07-13, 03:07 PM

You people amuse me you argue like the Sneetches with stars upon thars or ours.

**poobert** · November-07-13, 03:26 PM

http://www.deadlinedetroit.com/artic...9#.UbtYsefVAaC

You've got new money jerks verses old money jerks. Pick your poison.

I'd take GP any day of the week though.

As sumas brought up though, GP truly is the Land of Backhanded compliments. Lots of nice people there but Christ there are also a lot of damned blue-haired snobs. I cross Mack and rob the shit out of them every few weeks just to keep them on their toes.

**Detroitnerd** · November-07-13, 04:23 PM

I was outside Santa Cruz, Calif., once, taking a ride up a mountain in an old train to see redwoods. I was talking with my girlfriend about the DIA, and an older couple got my attention, saying they heard me talking about Detroit. They identified themselves as residents of Chicago, formerly of Grosse Pointe. I said I was a west-sider, and probably knew Chicago better than the Grosse Pointes.

We didn't, um, talk much after that exchange.