Should we even try downtown retail?

[detroitbob]

Gilbert and Bedrock stated that retail will roll out in conjunction with the light rail. If he doesn't own the buildings, he has the leases on the retail storefronts.

[stasu1213]

Let's face it. Detroit need more retail. Not novelty; just retail that cater to the general consumer. It hope that retail will open at the same time that the rail system is being constructed. Not open when the thing is completed. That will take a long time to wait

[Bham1982]

Let's face it. Detroit need more retail. Not novelty; just retail that cater to the general consumer. It hope that retail will open at the same time that the rail system is being constructed. Not open when the thing is completed. That will take a long time to wait

If Detroit really desperately needs retail, there's nothing currently stopping anyone from coming in and meeting that unmet demand. I don't think a trolley will have any effect on whether or not Detroit needs retail.

[stasu1213]

If Detroit really desperately needs re

tail, there's nothing currently stopping anyone from coming in and meeting that unmet demand. I don't think a trolley will have any effect on whether or not Detroit needs retail.

Detroit desprately need retail. Many potential retailers complained that detroit is not small business friendly and those businesses that had opened had to wait forever for the last inspection. The city government had stopped many retail from opening in the city

[Bham1982]

Detroit desprately need retail. Many potential retailers complained that detroit is not small business friendly and those businesses that had opened had to wait forever for the last inspection. The city government had stopped many retail from opening in the city

I don't see any evidence that there's some conspiracy where city govt. is trying to stop people from opening retail outlets. Why would they do this?

I have friends that just opened a business [[restaurant) in Detroit. It isn't really much harder than in other jurisdictions. It certainly isn't as difficult as in cities like SF and NYC. Yes, there's paperwork and inspections. Deal with it. Unless you're opening up in some bumblefunk township there will be some work before opening.

[bailey]

Detroit desprately need retail. Many potential retailers complained that detroit is not small business friendly and those businesses that had opened had to wait forever for the last inspection. The city government had stopped many retail from opening in the city

I've got to agree with Bham here.. if "detroit" desperately needed retail, it would be up and running....or getting up and running. Currently it takes crowd sourcing and grant money and contests and subsidies to get a Toy store to open in midtown.

I understand the Wintergarden is isolated from downtown... but it's a hellofalot less so than Somerset or Partridge creek or any or all of the suburban malls.... yet they are [[even the shitty ones) pretty full and the Winter Garden [[ and most of woodward's retail) is empty.

It's not a conspiracy, it's a business decision.

It's the same chicken/egg issue we've been stuck in for a while. Lack of residents= lack of retail= lack of residents.

As long as the vast bulk of downtown/midtown workers hit 75 or 94 after work, it's going to be hard to do large scale retail.

[stasu1213]

Bham, Bailey. I disagree. Yes restaurants are opening but stores that would meet the basic needs of the downtown, midtown and other residents in the city are not opening to meet the DEMANDS of the residents. I had stated in another that a linen store that sell bedroom, kitchen, and bathroom accessories would be well supported in the downtown/midtown area. So would casual basic clothing for men and women; not the caberet funky type apparel but basic stuff. The demand is there. Wintergarden was suppose to have the major retail besides Jos A Bank in it. That is what it was designed for. Mgmt of the building had decided not to go after retail for one reason or another. Many shoppers of these suburban malls are Detroiters. They have no choice but to shop at these malls which help support the revenue generated for these suburban areas. I think that there were and still is a conspiracy to keep that trend going. Dan Gilbert and others are trying to bring retail downtown. MooseJaw is the first and hopefully others will take the chance

[Bham1982]

I think that there were and still is a conspiracy to keep that trend going.

You think that the city govt. is in a conspiracy with suburban shopping centers to prevent retail from opening in Detroit? That's an odd sentiment, IMO.

If you personally think there is some desperate need for a linen store on Woodward Ave., then maybe get some partners and open up, and maybe you will make a killing. I don't see why there would be such a demand, as much healthier cities don't have such main street businesses these days, but maybe I'm wrong and there's an unmet need. Seems like it's fairly easy to buy linens in the various Bed Bath Beyond, Meijer, Walmart, whatever stores all over the place, and an independent would have a hard time competing.

[stasu1213]

You think that the city govt. is in a conspiracy with suburban shopping centers to prevent retail from opening in Detroit? That's an odd sentiment, IMO.

If you personally think there is some desperate need for a linen store on Woodward Ave., then maybe get some partners and open up, and maybe you will make a killing. I don't see why there would be such a demand, as much healthier cities don't have such main street businesses these days, but maybe I'm wrong and there's an unmet need. Seems like it's fairly easy to buy linens in the various Bed Bath Beyond, Meijer, Walmart, whatever stores all over the place, and an independent would have a hard time competing.

Are not all of those stores in the suburbs and not the city? You have to drive out there to buy your basic NEED for there is a demand for it. I speak from the consumer side. I don't have time and patience to open a business in Detroit. There are no linen stores in the area so competition would be none.

[Bham1982]

Are not all of those stores in the suburbs and not the city? You have to drive out there to buy your basic NEED for there is a demand for it. I speak from the consumer side. I don't have time and patience to open a business in Detroit. There are no linen stores in the area so competition would be none.

There's a Meijer in Detroit, and various Meijers, Walmarts, Targets and the like already ring Detroit on all sides. There is no where in Detroit where you aren't a few minutes from a superstore with all kinds of crap for sale.

Again, if you think there's no competition for linens, then open up a store, and you'll be a rich man.

[bailey]

Bham, Bailey. I disagree. Yes restaurants are opening but stores that would meet the basic needs of the downtown, midtown and other residents in the city are not opening to meet the DEMANDS of the residents. I had stated in another that a linen store that sell bedroom, kitchen, and bathroom accessories would be well supported in the downtown/midtown area. So would casual basic clothing for men and women; not the caberet funky type apparel but basic stuff. The demand is there. Wintergarden was suppose to have the major retail besides Jos A Bank in it. That is what it was designed for. Mgmt of the building had decided not to go after retail for one reason or another.

That isn't true. GM subsidized the rent of places like Brooks Brothers for several years. They also offered subsidies to others to locate there. No takers. What is there is what the demand will support.

Many shoppers of these suburban malls are Detroiters. They have no choice but to shop at these malls which help support the revenue generated for these suburban areas.

Yes, but if I'm living on the eastside, is going a few miles up 94 to Bed Bath and Beyond any more of an inconvenience that going downtown? Same for heading up 75 a couple of miles to the on 14 if I'm in Midtown. Regardless of where I live in Detroit, if I work in Troy, do I stop on my way home at the Bed Bath and Beyond down the street from my place of work or do I drive all the way downtown? Maybe some of that changes with a trolley.... but not for anyone not living directly on it.

Dan Gilbert and others are trying to bring retail downtown.

...and residents to shop at it.

MooseJaw is the first and hopefully others will take the chance

...wasn't that what was said about the Nike store?

[DetroitPlanner]

There's a Meijer in Detroit, and various Meijers, Walmarts, Targets and the like already ring Detroit on all sides. There is no where in Detroit where you aren't a few minutes from a superstore with all kinds of crap for sale.

Again, if you think there's no competition for linens, then open up a store, and you'll be a rich man.

To add to Bham's comments.

Keep in mind that there are also Family Dollars and Dollar Generals in the City that sell things like linens. True there are none downtown. Many neighborhoods still have grocery stores in them. True these are not chain stores, but they are not glorified liquor stores either. These are scattered thoughout places like the SW, Warrendale, Rosedale, University, etc.

There could be better coverage agreed, but they are there; and things are getting better than they were 10 years ago. You will still have gaps in many of the most poorest and dis-invested neighborhoods.

However this thread is about the viability of Downtown Retail. Downtown's market should be to the people who live and work there as very few will pay to park to shop at Bed Bath and Beyond when they don't have to.

[Bham1982]

To add to Bham's comments.

Keep in mind that there are also Family Dollars and Dollar Generals in the City that sell things like linens. True there are none downtown. Many neighborhoods still have grocery stores in them. True these are not chain stores, but they are not glorified liquor stores either. These are scattered thoughout places like the SW, Warrendale, Rosedale, University, etc.

This is true. To take one example, on Vernor there are probably a half-dozen dollar stores [[including both Family Dollar and Dollar General) as well as three decently-sized supermarkets. It's gritty, low-income retail, but I bet you SW residents can get most of the basics within a mile or so of their homes.

For the downtown retail, you probably aren't going to get big box. Big box retail generally requires lots of parking, and so you don't see urban-type big box too often outside of NYC.

Even in Chicago, SF and the like, most of the big box stores come with tons of free parking [[see all the suburban-style free parking lots in the big box zone around Clybourn in Chicago).

[stasu1213]

This is true. To take one example, on Vernor there are probably a half-dozen dollar stores [[including both Family Dollar and Dollar General) as well as three decently-sized supermarkets. It's gritty, low-income retail, but I bet you SW residents can get most of the basics within a mile or so of their homes.

For the downtown retail, you probably aren't going to get big box. Big box retail generally requires lots of parking, and so you don't see urban-type big box too often outside of NYC.

Even in Chicago, SF and the like, most of the big box stores come with tons of free parking [[see all the suburban-style free parking lots in the big box zone around Clybourn in Chicago).

I disagree. Big Box Stores require a good transportation system as well. Many people in Chicago, New York, Atlanta, and even Washington uses mass transportation to get to the stores in their downtown areas. Detroiter are the only ones who think that a parking lot is the only thing that is needed for stores to open in the area

[stasu1213]

A good transportation system that would bring shoppers into the retail areas will make a thriving downtown/midtown. Good security would keep the troublemakers away and would encourage more stores to open in the area.Lets get away from the totally car centric mindset

[Bham1982]

I disagree. Big Box Stores require a good transportation system as well. Many people in Chicago, New York, Atlanta, and even Washington uses mass transportation to get to the stores in their downtown areas. Detroiter are the only ones who think that a parking lot is the only thing that is needed for stores to open in the area

If this were the case, then why are 90% of the big box stores in core Chicago built in a suburban-style, auto-oriented format?

The biggest cluster of big box type stores in downtown Chicago is around North Ave./Clybourn. All the stores have free parking. Transit and pedestrian amenities are an afterthought.

And Atlanta is probably even more auto-oriented than Detroit. I find it hard to believe that they have even one example of big box retail not geared to the automobile.

NYC is really the only exception I can think of for the U.S., which makes sense, as it's the only city where most households don't own vehicles.

[bailey]

Is "Big Box" really what we're talking about or is wanted/needed for Downtown/CBD retail district?

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I don't think "downtown" stores will end up being the Walmarts, Meijers and major supermarkets. There will be a few specialty grocers [[Whole Foods, Trader Joe's), but they will succeed by catering to the mix of affluent people that live and work downtown. The big boxes would do much better to locate further out in the city. Successful downtown retailers will be a mix of local and national smaller stores, sprinkled with bars, restaurants and coffee shops. "Big Box" makes sense where you have lots of residents who can drive their car to your huge store. There are places currently in Detroit where that could work; there will be more places in a few years. But downtown doesn't offer the space or the right traffic for big box.

[Bham1982]

Is "Big Box" really what we're talking about or is wanted/needed for Downtown/CBD retail district?

I don't think big box is even possible, because of the parking requirements. But folks were talking about linens and the like, and basic necessities. That means big box.

If Woodward ever thrives again, it will be due to restaurants and niche retail. You won't ever have multistory, big footprint retail in our lifetimes.

[poobert]

If Detroit really desperately needs retail, there's nothing currently stopping anyone from coming in and meeting that unmet demand. I don't think a trolley will have any effect on whether or not Detroit needs retail.

Mass transit systems are "a trolley." Seriously? Somehow I wonder if you can possibly be for real. Only in Metro Detroit.

[DetroitPlanner]

If this were the case, then why are 90% of the big box stores in core Chicago built in a suburban-style, auto-oriented format?

The biggest cluster of big box type stores in downtown Chicago is around North Ave./Clybourn. All the stores have free parking. Transit and pedestrian amenities are an afterthought.

And Atlanta is probably even more auto-oriented than Detroit. I find it hard to believe that they have even one example of big box retail not geared to the automobile.

NYC is really the only exception I can think of for the U.S., which makes sense, as it's the only city where most households don't own vehicles.

Suburban Chicago does have a good transportation system. It is made up of single occupancy vehicles!

Atlantic Station is a developing TOD with an Ikea. It is located in Atlanta. http://www.atlanta.net/Visitors/atlantic_station.html
http://www.gafollowers.com/free-thin...do-in-atlanta/

[Bham1982]

It's strangely comforting to know that I can come on here at any given time, despite being miles upon miles away, to be reminded that there will always be a provincial, jerkwater place such as Metro Detroit where, well in to the 21st century, smug suburbanites who rent in declining, gauche suburbs still refer to mass transit systems as "a trolley."

You do realize we're getting a trolley, right? There's no "mass transit system" being built.

[Bham1982]

Atlantic Station is a developing TOD with an Ikea. It is located in Atlanta.

I've been to Atlantic Station. Tons of free parking. There is a transit station in relative proximity, but I would not describe Atlantic Station as "transit oriented". "Transit-accessible", sure, but I doubt it matters to the bottom line.

[bailey]

Mass transit systems are "a trolley." Seriously?

...no, but M-1 "rail" is. Seriously. all pretense has been dropped and even the backers of it are calling it a "street car" line instead of "light rail".

[ghettopalmetto]

If this were the case, then why are 90% of the big box stores in core Chicago built in a suburban-style, auto-oriented format?

The biggest cluster of big box type stores in downtown Chicago is around North Ave./Clybourn. All the stores have free parking. Transit and pedestrian amenities are an afterthought.

That's zoning, bud, not some unimpeachable fiat from The Almighty.

You have your Chicago parkingplex, and I can show you a building in DC containing a Target, Best Buy, Bed Bath & Beyond, a gym, and several smaller businesses, where the free underground parking garage is *always* less than half-full.

It all comes down to what kind of city you want to have. If you want automotive sewers filled with warehouse-sized junk shops and acres of beautiful asphalt, you can have that. If you want something that your grandparents would recognize as a city, you can have that too. But it all starts with knowing the desired outcome.