Should we even try downtown retail?

[ghettopalmetto]

I'm late to this party and have not read all of the thread, but it appears to be acting like all the other "downtown retail" threads that have come before it, and appears to suffer from the same problem, that is "What KIND of retail are you talking about"?

The way some people talk, you'd think they want to recapture the glory of the past. Forget it. That dream died 40+ years ago, and even cities with "thriving" urban cores are finding that the shopping districts are becoming more and more oriented towards residents than as a regional draw.

I'll grant you that you may find one of the new smaller urban Target stores or something like them will find downtown attractive, but in order for downtown retail to work, it's going to be important to figure out what your target audience is, and that's probably office workers and downtown residents. Once you establish what crowd will be drawn, the easier to figure out what kinds of shops and services are needed and have a chance to survive.

Amen. I love how folks say, "Retail won't work in Detroit!". Well, there are 50,000 potential customers downtown every work day. Thousands more *live* in the area, and thousands more visit for special events. When you think that a behemoth of a store like Walmart [[not that I'm advocating for one) can survive in every other podunk town in America, this is a pretty decent size customer base!

I think where Detroit gets hung up is:

1. People think that any downtown retail needs to be some sort of "regional draw" that suckers people into coming downtown from thousands of miles away. The people are already coming--don't set your businesses up to fail by forcing them to compete with Somerset or Great Lakes Crossing or Ye Olde Partridge Creek Shoppes.

2. People think that downtown retail *must* be national retailers in crappy suburban-looking buildings, surrounded by acres of free parking.

I think if we can get these two ideas out of our collective asses, we might start to see something amazing.

[401don]

Gilbert says he plans to launch retail when light rail is completed. It's not so much that the rail will help business as the last thing you want is to launch while the street is torn up for construction. He also understands that to have any chance at success several retailers need to open at the same time. One thing is for sure, at the rate he's acquiring and building spaces, he better try something!

[canuck]

Detroit should take advantage of the low cost of available retail space to attract investors to this market. I think Gilbert can probably pull in a number of players that can make a difference to locals and visitors alike.


If we dismiss the idea of Big retail and mall type developments for a bit, we might be tempted at recreating the small scale environments that exist in small suburban CBD's like Ann Arbors'. How can small specialized shops survive in downtown or Midtown and Wayne State's commercial hubs depends on their relevance to the folks who frequent these environments on a daily basis.


There is plenty of commercial space to be had, the quality is usually very high, it remains to be seen how attractive design and marketing ingenuity can make a difference in the short and medium term. I dont believe in very long term successes in retail anyways. Retail now is about trendsetting and reviving interest at street level shops in the same way that malls do makeovers every 7 years or so.

[stasu1213]

I think the specialize shops as well as Ann Taylor Loft,Urban Legends and others would do well downtown. Gilbert doesnt have to wait until the rail system is completed. He could put those stored inside the Z garage storefronts. The box stores could go into areas such as HarborTown, Chene Square, Jefferson Village, and New Center One. All which are car friendly

[DetroitPlanner]

I think the specialize shops as well as Ann Taylor Loft,Urban Legends and others would do well downtown. Gilbert doesnt have to wait until the rail system is completed. He could put those stored inside the Z garage storefronts.

Then put together a business plan, get some investors or loans, and open a store that sells Ann Taylor or whatever Urban Legend is. Stop talking about what others should do and do it!

[stasu1213]

I make suggestions. I am not the business type. Don't have the patience for it. I had meant "Urban Outfitters" . I do admit that those stores would work in the D. Hopefully they will open to add to the vibrancy that the downtown/midtown area is getting

[stasu1213]

Planners and developers probably go on this site for ideas not only for retail but for other things as well

[donpablo]

Funny, I won't steal but bet I could BUY a niffty bathrobe from a casino or hotel. Thanks for the idea.

They sell them new for $90 at the Book Cadillac

[401don]

Be careful if you're staying there. All I did was try the robe on in the closet and hung it back up just as it was. I was dinged a $15 user fee. When I called the hotel when I got home, they said this is standard practice.

[erikd]

If this is true, then 65 percent do have access to vehicles. Lets subtract out the number of people who are too young or too old to drive that live in the City. The numbers for houses with cars suddenly look pretty good. In addition, the people who have cars most likely have more disposable income.

I don't see a lot of people on the bus or waiting for one on Gratiot carrying TV's from Costco. If you don't have a car and want to make a big purchase, you are going to coordinate your trip with a family member or friend who has one. The nature of retail has changed. It is no longer 1940, M-1 will only go up to New Center.

Regarding the parking at Hudson's. Yes there is parking there. Is there a lot? Well not after you subtract out the thousands of workers who carpool and park there every day. While the spots are there, the capacity is already full so assuming that the parking will be used by shoppers is foolish when the stores open at 9-10, but the office workers get there before 8. Staples bought Silvers and moved it to the eastern edge of Downtown for a reason: Parking.

What is the CBD's best market? Those who are there already. Office workers and residents need to be able to keep these places going and that is the market you should be chasing.

What many fail to realize is Downtown Detroit's retail market is fairly healthy when you compare it to most large cities in the United States. New York and Chicago are definitely not a normal retail environment. See Toledo, Cleveland, Columbus, Indy, Buffalo, and Pittsburgh and you will find the only one with a more healthy retail environment is Pittsburgh, but it is only marginally more healthy. MPS has a decent amount of retail downtown, but remember these folks are stir crazy and locked in a habitrail for 9 months a year. Heck Detroit's CBD is even more healthier than places like Royal Oak, Birmingham, Plymouth, or Wyandotte when you adjust for the food court for drunk yuppies and hipsters factor.

Shopping patterns have changed drastically since 1940, everywhere. You cannot go backwards but change is inevitable. The big question is how do we improve what we have based upon current conditions? Having a big goal is great, but be willing to accept baby-steps to get you there.

How common is it for for people to go and pick up their big-ticket items themselves? I suppose that some people with big trucks will go to the store and load up a TV, sofa, stove, ect., but that seems crazy to me. Over the last few years, I have purchased a few large items [[TV/appliance type things) and they have all included FREE DELIVERY.

The idea of people carrying a TV on a bus or train is ridiculous. Best Buy, Amazon, Sears, and basically any place that sells these types of items offers free delivery with purchase. I have a car, but I can't fit a big-screen TV, sofa, stove, or washer in it, so what the difference?

On the other hand, shopping for clothing, jewelery, small housewares, shoes, personal electronics, daily groceries, etc., is suited quite well for a person who is walking or using public transit.

I live and work in downtown Detroit, and it is common for me to purchase a couple of shirts or a suit, and carry them home on the People Mover. If we had an Apple store downtown, it would be no problem to walk or bus home with a new iPad, MacBook, iPhone, or Airport. It's not a problem to wait for the bus with a new shower curtain, cutting board, and a pack of underwear that you just bought from Target.

To be sure, it is impractical to buy $300 dollars worth of stuff from the store and lug it home on the bus, but that is not what downtown retail is for. Costco and WalMart are great for stocking up on a whole bunch of shit at once. You can fill up your entire vehicle with enough stuff to last for two weeks in one trip. Downtown storefront retail is not designed to do that, and it's not a problem. If you need to restock your pantry all at once, then take a car to a warehouse store. If you want to shop for clothing, shoes, jewelery, specialty items, etc., a nice downtown shopping district is far superior to a big-box warehouse store.

There is more to retail than WalMart, Costco, Best Buy, and Meijer.

[stasu1213]

It is true that people didn't bring TVs on busses but many people had caught the busses to go to places such as Fretters and Highland Appliance to pick out an appliance, order it, and then have it DELIVERED to there homes. A car was not needed to make big purchases back then. Many people knew of someone who had a station wagon or truck and the people saved on cost of delivery. That is why you didn't see people catching the Gratiot bus with big TVs in their hands.

[DetroitPlanner]

If you read my original post to which both of you are posting, you are assuming a lot more than I am. I said you don't see people standing in front of the Costco on Gratiot holding a TV. Most people in the world do not get enourmous televisons, I did not say anything about someone trying to get a washing machine onto a bus. Most TV's under 40" are very carry-able. I have a 32" LED. I would be surprised if this thing weighs over 20 pounds.

The majority of people do buy stuff once every couple of weeks at places like Costco or Meijer. At least more people do this than make daily trips to Kroger or some other grocer. They do this because they percieve that this is the way to save money [[but I disagree as much of the last few miles of delivery costs are transferred to the consumer and the amount of time wasted in long lines or walking around enormous stores can negate those savings).

You folks are talking about a world the simply does not exist in the United States anymore outside of small parts of New York or Chicago.

[ghettopalmetto]

The majority of people do buy stuff once every couple of weeks at places like Costco or Meijer. At least more people do this than make daily trips to Kroger or some other grocer. They do this because they percieve that this is the way to save money [[but I disagree as much of the last few miles of delivery costs are transferred to the consumer and the amount of time wasted in long lines or walking around enormous stores can negate those savings).

You folks are talking about a world the simply does not exist in the United States anymore outside of small parts of New York or Chicago.

Therefore, don't even try to open stores downtown, right? I mean, empty buildings and parkingplexes are much preferred.

If Detroit was previously altered to accommodate the automobile above all else, then it can also be reconfigured for dense, urban development. But making assumptions like, "Everyone goes to Meijer anyway" is a recipe for the status quo.

I think DetroitPlanner would know, from his professional experience, that 20-and-30-somethings are moving into dense, walkable neighborhoods [[which sometimes include big box retail stores). Staying in a rigid 1950s mindset for the sake of a few vocal, nostalgic old farts is certain death for the city.

[jaytheory]

Therefore, don't even try to open stores downtown, right? I mean, empty buildings and parkingplexes are much preferred.

If Detroit was previously altered to accommodate the automobile above all else, then it can also be reconfigured for dense, urban development. But making assumptions like, "Everyone goes to Meijer anyway" is a recipe for the status quo.

I think DetroitPlanner would know, from his professional experience, that 20-and-30-somethings are moving into dense, walkable neighborhoods [[which sometimes include big box retail stores). Staying in a rigid 1950s mindset for the sake of a few vocal, nostalgic old farts is certain death for the city.

Detroit has to walk a very fine line when it comes to retail. Big ox garabge will likely faila nd thing to unique and botique in dowtown will also fail. there neeeds to be a mix of retail offerings, that include restraunts and bars to pay the rents for the buildings while the speciallyty shops sink or swim. also some national retailers need to be in the mix especially clotjhing. clothing and small furniture or decorative things along with a book store...that focuses on digital offerings and laptops tablets etc needs to be there as well.

something people will window shop in as much as shop

[DetroitPlanner]

TI think DetroitPlanner would know, from his professional experience, that 20-and-30-somethings are moving into dense, walkable neighborhoods [[which sometimes include big box retail stores). Staying in a rigid 1950s mindset for the sake of a few vocal, nostalgic old farts is certain death for the city.

If you go back a few posts you will see they were responding to me. In that same post I included:

"What is the CBD's best market? Those who are there already. Office workers and residents need to be able to keep these places going and that is the market you should be chasing. "

[bailey]

Therefore, don't even try to open stores downtown, right? I mean, empty buildings and parkingplexes are much preferred.

Its easy to demand someone do something. ...I don't really get what the argument here has become with all this focus on walmart/bigbox. Let's review the facts on the ground. Washington Blvd, Broadway,Fort, Woodward are all replete with empty storefronts and empty retail in buildings. the "Z building has just added two more blocks of it. The Tiki God HQ for Meridian claims it will have street level retail. Whatever Rock is doing with the rest of that block claims it will have "street level retail. Allegedly the Illitch funzone is to have street level retail as a component. The Gilbert option on the Fail Jail site is to contain retail. The Gilbert Plan for the Hudson's site seems to have retail as a huge component of it. The Wintergarden is three floors of almost totally empty retail. To my knowledge, nothing that is being built in the WSU/Midtown area doesn't have street level retail....
No one is saying anything about reserving any space for a Walmart near Campus Martius.

The problem is that "everyone in detroit goes to [insert big box store] or [online sales tax free option] or [mall in suburbs]" seems to be what local retailers and chains think.

One thing that no one can complain about is a lack of storefronts or retail space available, or soon to come online, in the CBD.

[Bham1982]

I think DetroitPlanner would know, from his professional experience, that 20-and-30-somethings are moving into dense, walkable neighborhoods [[which sometimes include big box retail stores).

But they're keeping their cars and suburban mindset. Save NYC, no U.S. city has a primarily transit- or pedestrian-oriented shopping market. Even in Chicago and SF, you can hardly find a big box or supermarket without free, abundant parking.

Staying in a rigid 1950s mindset for the sake of a few vocal, nostalgic old farts is certain death for the city.

You have it reversed. The 1950's were the era of public transit and walkability. 2013 is the era of big box and autotopia. The handful of 20-somethings living downtown for a few years before buying in Shelby aren't going to lead to some vast paradigm shift.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

The downtown SF City Target has no parking, but it is across the street from a garage charging $3.50 per hour.

I find the title of this thread a little odd. If the CBD continues to fill up with more employees and more residents, there will be the base for retail. Isn't it more of a question of what type, rather than whether there should be any? I used to work in the First National Building. When I did, I used to shop for things. Don't other workers like to do the same?

If I lived in downtown, something like a City Target would be fantastic.

[esp1986]

But they're keeping their cars and suburban mindset. Save NYC, no U.S. city has a primarily transit- or pedestrian-oriented shopping market. Even in Chicago and SF, you can hardly find a big box or supermarket without free, abundant parking.



You have it reversed. The 1950's were the era of public transit and walkability. 2013 is the era of big box and autotopia. The handful of 20-somethings living downtown for a few years before buying in Shelby aren't going to lead to some vast paradigm shift.

Believe it or not, millennials don't want to have cars. Many can't even afford them. That's why they leave the area. Chicago isn't perfect, nor free of cars, but it's a lot easier not to have one than it is here. It's this ignorant line of thinking that is holding the entire country back and perpetuating the suburban attitude. Millennials have cars because they are given no other choice. Corporations, and the auto companies in particular lobby so hard against transit related spending because it would hurt their business. Without suburbs, the construction, real estate, automotive and a number of other industries would be a fraction of the size they are.

It's not that this is what people want, it's that they have no other choice. The people with the money are calling the shots to continue to pad their pockets.

You can even tie this into the minimum wage argument. You can't survive on minimum wage because most people have no choice, but to own a car. Which in a lot of cases is an expense that is bigger than their rent. Take away that expense, and it's a lot easier to make ends meet, seeing as the average person spends probably $400/month on car payments, gas and insurance. And that's often for a car that is far from reliable.

Provide viable transit, and there's no need for those auto expenses.

[Bham1982]

The downtown SF City Target has no parking, but it is across the street from a garage charging $3.50 per hour.)

CityTargets aren't really true big box, but, even in SF, paid parking or non-dedicated for big box and grocery is rare. For example, all the SF Whole Foods have free, onsite parking.

And a lot of places will validate parking, so it's free or greatly reduced rates. Even in a high density, more pedestrian oriented district [[say Michigan Ave. in Chicago), most major stores validate parking for free or greatly reduced rates.

In the U.S., drivers are extremely critical to the success of basically all shopping districts [[excepting some parts of the NYC area)

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

The Whole Foods here do have parking - but not nearly the same amount as the Midtown Detroit location.

[DetroitPlanner]

Believe it or not, millennials don't want to have cars. Many can't even afford them.

More the later than the former. I can't see anyone not wanting a car. If someone offered these kids a brand new car they would jump on it. In the giant race to the bottom they are a very tough thing to rationalize.

[Bham1982]

Believe it or not, millennials don't want to have cars.

Who cares? The point is that millennials own cars, drive cars, and use them to shop. That's why retailers require parking.

It's not that this is what people want, it's that they have no other choice. The people with the money are calling the shots to continue to pad their pockets.

Sure they have choice. They have transit in Chicago and SF. But they choose to drive.

Provide viable transit, and there's no need for those auto expenses.

Except that isn't what occurs. There's "viable transit" in a whole host of U.S. cities yet only one is transit-oriented.

If you really want to build a transit-oriented city, BTW, the key isn't providing transit. It's restricted auto usage. NYC is transit oriented not necessarily because it has good transit, but because auto usage is wholly impractical.

[DetroitPlanner]

If you really want to build a transit-oriented city, BTW, the key isn't providing transit. It's restricted auto usage. NYC is transit oriented not necessarily because it has good transit, but because auto usage is wholly impractical.

It is the rent cost of the space that makes it so.

Economic geography plays a huge role in all of this stuff. For those who have no idea what I am talking about look up people like Christaller or Von Tunen.

[douglasm]

I'm going to echo DetroitPlanner's thoughts, like I did earlier in this thread. There is this tendency in people to try to re-create the downtown of the past, and it ain't gonna happen, so why bother. Look to the local residents and office workers as your target audience.

That's one reason cited for Tarket's "City" store that opened in Seattle a year and a half ago. To quote a Seattle Times article....

"Target chose Seattle for one of it's first three cities because downtown has a healthy mix of condo and apartment dwellers, office workers and tourists, said senior vicepresident of stores Bryan Everett."

And before someone says "yea, Detroit doesn't have any downtown tourists", the point should be made that 20 years ago, faced with a decline in downtown retail, Seattle made the same kind of effort Detroit is undertaking to repopulate the residential downtown core, with it growing about 25,000 people between 1990 and 2010, with over 60,000 living in the downtown core. Think of that as 2 Jackson Mich's living downtown

I don't know what the current downtown population of Detroit is, but I do know it's growing, and this is a market that should be tapped and will draw retail to it.