Should we even try downtown retail?

[Spartan]

I've worked downtown for 30 years and have never had an out of towner ask me where they could buy sneakers! Look, if sneakers and dresses were items people were looking for, why on earth are there not more places downtown to buy them? You have a pretty decent market with just the workers and folks who live downtown. What you don't have is a market study that explains to retailers what that market can do the their bottom line.

That's because we don't get enough out-of-towners looking here. If we want to attract more visitors, basic retail downtown is a major hindrance. Many travelers need or want to buy clothing. If you made a reservation for Coach Insignia and realized you didn't bring anything nice enough to wear to a fancy dinner, where do you go to get a dress for the evening? Dearborn?

[DetroitPlanner]

That's because we don't get enough out-of-towners looking here. If we want to attract more visitors, basic retail downtown is a major hindrance. Many travelers need or want to buy clothing. If you made a reservation for Coach Insignia and realized you didn't bring anything nice enough to wear to a fancy dinner, where do you go to get a dress for the evening? Dearborn?

You're giving extreme examples. If a traveller wants to eat at fancy places they are going to pack fancy gear. THe point I am trying to make here is twofold:

1. We want successful businesses, opening up a business that serves wants and not needs has a big chance of not being successful.
2. We have a market downtown already that is not fully served by retail. We should cater to that market first. This will reduce the risk in opening a retailer.

[bailey]

Uh, it's not a "pop up" temporary store. They are open year-round and signed a long-term lease a year ago after their "pop up" phase. A small store, subsidy or not, doesn't make it a pop up.

my bad, I thought they were still going month to month.

it's still only open 4 days a week and only there because Rock is subsidizing the rent. Again, I'm happy they are there, but let's hold the champagne and see if it remains viable after Rock ends the assistance.

[Spartan]

You're giving extreme examples. If a traveller wants to eat at fancy places they are going to pack fancy gear. THe point I am trying to make here is twofold:

1. We want successful businesses, opening up a business that serves wants and not needs has a big chance of not being successful.
2. We have a market downtown already that is not fully served by retail. We should cater to that market first. This will reduce the risk in opening a retailer.

I'm just giving an example. Yes, it's not one that will happen often. People buy stuff when they travel. Whether it's just for fun, or they need something, or they are traveling to shop. If we want Detroit to be a destination, both for living in and traveling, we need more basic necessity stores.

[stasu1213]

I've worked downtown for 30 years and have never had an out of towner ask me where they could buy sneakers! Look, if sneakers and dresses were items people were looking for, why on earth are there not more places downtown to buy them? You have a pretty decent market with just the workers and folks who live downtown. What you don't have is a market study that explains to retailers what that market can do the their bottom line.

The one reason why major retail don't open downtown for the city make it difficult for business to open. Bing administration stupidly laid off many bulding safety inspectors causing up and coming businesses to have to wait almost a half of year for the final inspection which delay the target opening date four to five months. That is very discouraging to potential retailer

[erikd]

I disagree with your explanation of the "why" [[most Chicago downtown dwellers aren't mostly working, shopping, and dining in the sprawling burbs), and the fact that nothing gets built in downtown Chicago without plenty of parking shows that people use their cars for city living too.

But my point is that it's irrelevant. The "why" doesn't matter; we just know you need parking, even in the city center. Nothing gets financed or leased without lots of parking.

Bham,

The 'why" DOES matter. I live in a 100+ year old building WITHOUT dedicated parking, and we have a waiting list of people who want to live here, even though there is no dedicated parking for building residents.

The reason why new buildings don't get built without dedicated parking is because that is what the LENDERS want to see, not what the RESIDENTS want.

A large number of downtown residents are not that interested in dedicated parking at their specific building because they have other options, even if they own a car. Many downtown employers provide free parking for their employees, so dedicated residential parking is not improtant or even needed for tenants who are able to park their cars in a work garage that is just a block or two away from the apartment.

In addition to that, there are a shitload of large parking garages that offer monthly parking spaces to the public, which includes residents in the neighborhood.

As it stands now, lenders will rarely, if ever, give loans to build a small mixed use downtown building with 15 or 20 apartments unless that building has dedicated parking. It doesn't matter if that small building has a 800 space parking garage right across the street, the lender will still demand dedicated on-site parking as a condition of financing.

It has nothing to do with what the renters want, it's all about the ingrained concept of every single piece of rentable space having dedicated parking, regardless if the market demands it or not.

Parking is a commodity that has been grossly over-regulated by the government in America. Our parking requirements are the product of a soviet-style command system that the USSR would be proud of.

[DetroitPlanner]

The 'why" DOES matter. I live in a 100+ year old building WITHOUT dedicated parking, and we have a waiting list of people who want to live here, even though there is no dedicated parking for building residents.

Bham stated nothing new gets built without parking. That is because people who live in the 100 year old buildings have already taken the street parking places. Just because you live in a 100 year old building; heck maybe nearly everyone in your entire neighborhood does; will not translate to everyone in an entire city! Cities change and adapt. Once they stop doing so, they die. I would think that is a concept that nearly everyone who posts to this board could identify with.

[krapug1]

Excellent thread. Yes, downtown could use more retail, but a LOT has to happen to make it viable for the retailers of today.

One common factor in cities that have prosperous "downtown" retail, [[New York, San Fran, Chicago, and Boston) is their tourist trade, coupled with growing "downtown" populations. In the world today, suburbanites rarely travel to cities for shopping [[although they will come for many other things), unless there is a unique draw. The unique draw does not have to be a store of epic size [[like Macy's Herald Square, Union Square, State Street) but something popular, yet unique. As an example, Boston has the only Saks 5th Avenue in the greater metro area, and Neiman-Marcus has 1 other store in that metro region that is more limited than there store at Copley Place. Combined with a number of "specialty flagship" stores, suburbanites still travel to shop in beantown.

Subsidizing retail RARELY works, and Pittsburgh was a great example, after "betting the ranch" by luring a Lord and Taylor, and Larazus that only stayed for the amount if time needed to avoid paying back grants they received.

Philly is a good example, as it is dogged by the reputation that Center City residents would rather drive to King of Prussia, or Cherry Hill than shop in C.C. and that the tourists come for the historic sites and then leave. The end result being you have a small Macy's on 3 floors of the Wanamaker building, a mall anchored today by K-Mart and Burlington Coat Factory, and a list of modern specialty retailers that won't set up shop unless they can grab a spot within a few blocks of Rittenhouse Square.

Kne

[ghettopalmetto]

Bham stated nothing new gets built without parking. That is because people who live in the 100 year old buildings have already taken the street parking places. Just because you live in a 100 year old building; heck maybe nearly everyone in your entire neighborhood does; will not translate to everyone in an entire city! Cities change and adapt. Once they stop doing so, they die. I would think that is a concept that nearly everyone who posts to this board could identify with.

Parking is not something in short supply in downtown Detroit.

[DetroitPlanner]

Parking is not something in short supply in downtown Detroit.

Bham was describing Chicago. When the Woodward lofts went in, so did parking. This was also true for every single new housing development that has gone into 'Midtown'.

Take off your rose colored glasses. Everyone moving is has much more wealth than those that they are replacing. With this wealth comes 'stuff'. Cars are stuff that must be accounted for or the developer will never reach its demographic. This does not mean that people will not walk, but they want to have the option to drive. Your wanting of social engineering will never make people give up cars. Economic status and costs will.

Like it or not many of the parking lots that you see downtown will be filled with buildings that will have parking integrated into the development. The only way this won't happen is if we take gigantic steps backwards economically. Then you will lose even more people and more buildings to scrappers.

[ghettopalmetto]

Like it or not many of the parking lots that you see downtown will be filled with buildings that will have parking integrated into the development. The only way this won't happen is if we take gigantic steps backwards economically. Then you will lose even more people and more buildings to scrappers.

And as smart as you are, you know damn well that those "integrated" parking structures aren't cheap. At $20,000+ per spot, that's a serious impediment to those wished-for buildings ever happening in the first place.

[DetroitPlanner]

And as smart as you are, you know damn well that those "integrated" parking structures aren't cheap. At $20,000+ per spot, that's a serious impediment to those wished-for buildings ever happening in the first place.

You're the one assuming that integrating it into the development means integrating it into the building as a multi-level structure. I never said that.

I said integrated into the development.

Besides we are talking about retail here. Retail rents if done right will support parking. Heck you can even charge by the hour!

[stasu1213]

Lets have the big box stores such as Walmart, Target, Macy, to open in the empty stripmall such as Jefferson Village, Chene Square and others along Jefferson and have the sspecialty stores in the Downtown/Midtown areas whereby everyone from pedestrians and motorists could be satisfied

[xrockerboy]

lets have the big box stores such as walmart, target, macy, to open in the empty stripmall such as jefferson village, chene square and others along jefferson and have the sspecialty stores in the downtown/midtown areas whereby everyone from pedestrians and motorists could be satisfied

this!!!!!!

[Hermod]

Lets have the big box stores such as Walmart, Target, Macy, to open in the empty stripmall such as Jefferson Village, Chene Square and others along Jefferson and have the sspecialty stores in the Downtown/Midtown areas whereby everyone from pedestrians and motorists could be satisfied

I just can't wait for a high-end cufflink shop to open.

[stasu1213]

I j
ust can't wait for a high-end cufflink shop to open.

One thing that this city has is empty strip malls. Others on here had said that retail need parking structures in order to be sucessful. The stripmalls that lined Jefferson have plenty of parking for the big box stores such as Meijer,Walmart, and Bestbuy. The boutiques for men/women could still be in the downtown/midtown area. However; A good transportation system would be needed to bring shoppers downtown

[Hermod]

One thing that this city has is empty strip malls. Others on here had said that retail need parking structures in order to be sucessful. The stripmalls that lined Jefferson have plenty of parking for the big box stores such as Meijer,Walmart, and Bestbuy. The boutiques for men/women could still be in the downtown/midtown area. However; A good transportation system would be needed to bring shoppers downtown

I am old enough to have gone downtown on the Gratiot streetcar. We went downtown to shop at Hudsons [[and maybe Crowleys). We went to the smaller shops only to look for things we couldn't find in the department stores. The smaller boutiques in downtowns [[and in the enclosed suburban malls) live off the traffic generated by the anchor stores. You need an anchor store downtown if the "exquisite little boutiques" are going to make it.

[Zacha341]

Agreed. I recall Crowleys and Winklemans in Detroit. Also stores need to stay open beyond 5:00 PM when the sidewalks customarily rolls up downtown for me to consider shopping there!