Paralyzed firefighter to lose insurance

[Scottathew]

- The 'people that put Detroit in this situation' would have to be the auto manufacturers. Up until the 1970s, the 'Big Three' ruled Detroit like a company town.

- Every city and state [[municipality) in the country has finance problems related to debt ... so do all the countries ... at least those that don't have oil to sell, and some of these producers carry excess debts.
...

- It is ridiculous for the city to commit itself to paying criminal bankers and not pay individuals ... a pension is deferred compensation. Removing a funded pension is theft. Blame is a distraction.

"Every city and state [[municipality) in the country has finance problems related to debt" - Simply incorrect. There are many communities even within the Detroit Metro area that have been prudent, made cuts, and do not have "finance problems related to debt"

"- It is ridiculous for the city to commit itself to paying criminal bankers and not pay individuals" - Simply wrong again. The bankers are also taking a bath too. The only difference is that banks are banks, and pensioners are people. Pensions are not being eliminated, but benefits are being reduced, and reduced at a rate much lower than what banks are getting for their debts.

Just about everyone will agree that it's undesirable to be in this situation, however, you simply can't be mad at Orr. Be mad at all the people who had the chance to prevent this before him. Orr is taking the best option in the hand that has been dealt to him. No one will be happy. Bankers won't be happy, pensioners won't be happy, residents are underserved. It's a reality of a city that has lived beyond its means.

[NoHeartAnthony]

It's funny, when Lehman Brothers went bankrupt back in 2008, the bankers/creditors were aghast at the thoughts of breaking contracts. Now the bankers/creditors roll to the front of the line when Detroit is bankrupt, wanting their due at the expense of breaking union contracts.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

If the federal bankruptcy laws did not protect financial institutions in these situations, there is not a bank on Earth that would allow CoD to even have a checking account, let alone borrow money.

[compn]

Hatmaker companies closed their doors and very little was coming in to the pension fund. Legacy pensioners saw their monthly pensions get cut again and again. near the end, $30 a month was a common pension. I am not sure if the union even exists any more. Who is to blame here? Do we blame the workers, the small hat making company owners, the union, or President Kennedy?

i blame the pension idea itself. no one can predict trends and future employment levels.

[Wesley Mouch]

"Every city and state [[municipality) in the country has finance problems related to debt" - Simply incorrect. There are many communities even within the Detroit Metro area that have been prudent, made cuts, and do not have "finance problems related to debt"

"- It is ridiculous for the city to commit itself to paying criminal bankers and not pay individuals" - Simply wrong again. The bankers are also taking a bath too. The only difference is that banks are banks, and pensioners are people. Pensions are not being eliminated, but benefits are being reduced, and reduced at a rate much lower than what banks are getting for their debts.

Just about everyone will agree that it's undesirable to be in this situation, however, you simply can't be mad at Orr. Be mad at all the people who had the chance to prevent this before him. Orr is taking the best option in the hand that has been dealt to him. No one will be happy. Bankers won't be happy, pensioners won't be happy, residents are underserved. It's a reality of a city that has lived beyond its means.

The 'notorious' LBPatterson's OC switched towards defined contribution in the 1990s. Detroit didn't. Orr was still in Pampers. I know some OC workers. They are quite happy with their pension arrangements and have done well with them in spite of the financial ups and downs. Most of those on defined benefit moved over to defined contribution, because it works well. Detroit on the other hand just kept screaming about how defined contribution is a war on the workers.

[sumas]

It is disgusting how a thread involving a harmed hero can turn into an anti Detroit thread. Losing insurance is a huge issue to all. In this case and many others, it's pure criminal.

As we speak, I hear fire sirens, Sometimes folks, it is just we have old homes, not criminal enterprise. I personally put several $$$$ into upgrading my electrics, have many smoke/fire detectors, which I check on all four floors.

I have amazing respect for our firefighters, who unlike our police, respond, all the time. I even put my money where my mouth is. Support them.

God bless you boys and girls.

[Scottathew]

It is disgusting how a thread involving a harmed hero can turn into an anti Detroit thread. Losing insurance is a huge issue to all. In this case and many others, it's pure criminal.

As we speak, I hear fire sirens, Sometimes folks, it is just we have old homes, not criminal enterprise. I personally put several $$$$ into upgrading my electrics, have many smoke/fire detectors, which I check on all four floors.

I have amazing respect for our firefighters, who unlike our police, respond, all the time. I even put my money where my mouth is. Support them.

God bless you boys and girls.

How hard the firefighters work, or how paralyzed they are doesn't change the fact that Detroit is out of money. Past Detroit leaders have made promises that can't be kept.

The outrage should be at the people who made the promises, the people that kept passing deficeit budgets, NOT the people who have to make all the hard decisions that should have been made over the past 20 years.

It's easy to paint Orr, Snyder, and others as the bad guys. They are the ones that have their big boy pants on and are actually addressing the issue, instead of doing the easy thing, which is to just keep on operating as the debt piles on and grows.

[cla1945]

QUOTE=48307;408456]How hard the firefighters work, or how paralyzed they are doesn't change the fact that Detroit is out of money. Past Detroit leaders have made promises that can't be kept.


The outrage should be at the people who made the promises, the people that kept passing deficeit budgets, NOT the people who have to make all the hard decisions that should have been made over the past 20 years.


It's easy to paint Orr, Snyder, and others as the bad guys. They are the ones that have their big boy pants on and are actually addressing the issue, instead of doing the easy thing, which is to just keep on operating as the debt piles on and grows.[/QUOTE]


Yours is probably one of the most callous remarks I've seen since this entire bankruptcy procedure began..."How paralyzed they are" does change things. Detroit is not out of money. The same way that Detroit fudges the numbers on how many fires there have been during this Halloween and every Halloween since the 80's, the same way numbers are moved, changed, or removed within the budget.

While thug KK sits in prison now, he's undergone knee surgery and has received medical care and will continue to receive it, dental and vision care for the next 28 years and all of the disabled people who once worked for Detroit and were told that they would be cared for as a condition of their employment are now being told they are more or less on their own.

Dougie didn't ask for this. He needs daily care to stay alive. Specialists to keep him breathing and to keep his muscles from wasting away.

I am outraged at all the people who put Detroit where it is today, past and present. I am outraged at people like you who don't care what happens to guys like Dougie and to retirees [[and I am one) who, while maybe not giving the ultimate sacrifice, gave years of their lives to Detroit only to have a few people come to town and turn their backs on everyone.

Like Brendan said, we didn't have our hands out to take entitlements...we had our hand out to help people.

[313WX]

QUOTE=48307;408456]Detroit is not out of money.

Detroit has a debtload of at least $18 Billion dollars, yet it only brings in $2.5 Billion dollars in total revenue [[roughly, and only 1/4 of that comes from tax revenue).

Hmmm, could have fooled me if that ain't broke [[when your total liabilities exceeds your total assets, that's the basic definition of "broke", or "out of money", yes?).

[cla1945]

Detroit has a debtload of at least $18 Billion dollars, yet it only brings in $2.5 Billion dollars in total revenue [[roughly, and only 1/4 of that comes from tax revenue).

Hmmm, could have fooled me if that ain't broke [[when your total liabilities exceeds your total assets, that's the basic definition of "broke", yes?).

Don't be fooled and let the powers that be tell you the City is broke. My first thoughts are, the lawyers are loving this. I'd like someone to explain to me how all these high priced lawyers, consultants and assistants are getting paid. Where is that money coming from?

[Honky Tonk]

Don't be fooled and let the powers that be tell you the City is broke. My first thoughts are, the lawyers are loving this. I'd like someone to explain to me how all these high priced lawyers, consultants and assistants are getting paid. Where is that money coming from?

I can totally understand your pain and fear about losing your pension, but on what do you base your statement that "Don't be fooled and let the powers that be tell you the City is broke."?

[313WX]

Don't be fooled and let the powers that be tell you the City is broke. My first thoughts are, the lawyers are loving this. I'd like someone to explain to me how all these high priced lawyers, consultants and assistants are getting paid. Where is that money coming from?

Detroit is getting the Casino tax revenue again, and SOME money was freed up as there's a stay on Detroit's debt payments.

That said, Detroit must first provide services to its citizens [[at least to the extent where the city isn't shut down) and meet payroll for it's current 10,000ish employees. As pissed as you may be about the proposed cuts to retiree pensions and health insurance, you would be even more pissed if Orr said "Unfortunately, because the city must make a payment to its health insurance providers and pension funds, we won't be able to make payroll next week." But the aforementioned things quickly eats up any money gained from the stay on debt payments and the casino tax revenue. Furthermore, income and property tax revenues continue to fall as citizens and commerce continue to flee the city [[due to the lack of services).

And I'm not of fan of all of the lawyers and consultants, but at the same time, they're here to help Detroit restructure its finances AND the cost to hire them is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of the pension/health care obligations.

[BankruptcyGuy]

The thing about running out of money is that it forces you to make some tough, tough choices. Our City's residents have known about that for some time. Do you choose to not pay:

1. For services, and let your city decay?
2. For pensions, and break a promise to people who have served the city and can't replace the income?
3. For heath care, and harm people like Dougie?
4. Your debts, closing the door to borrowing for the forseeable future?

This involves a set of value judgments in which there are going to be multiple points of view and multiple losers. Sad all around.

Best thing to do is do your best to bring the city back so that the choices aren't so hard. Pretending you don't have to make those choices isn't the answer, and should have been insulting to those who must make those choices on a family level every day.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

If Detroit is not granted bankruptcy protection, everyone [[pensioners, bondholders, city vendors) will have legal right to file for liens against city property and tax revenues. City buildings, furniture, land, artwork, and incoming revenue could be taken, leaving little left for the residents. Bankruptcy is awful but provides for the city's people to still have some services. Bankruptcy is our friend. I hope the court realizes that.

[313WX]

If Detroit is not granted bankruptcy protection, everyone [[pensioners, bondholders, city vendors) will have legal right to file for liens against city property and tax revenues. City buildings, furniture, land, artwork, and incoming revenue could be taken, leaving little left for the residents. Bankruptcy is awful but provides for the city's people to still have some services. Bankruptcy is our friend. I hope the court realizes that.

It's highly unlikely Detroit's bankruptcy petition is denied.

Even if the city didn't negotiate in good faith, there's more than enough proof to show that it's insolvent [[thus going through the motions of negotiations would have been a fruitless exercise).

[Scottathew]

Yours is probably one of the most callous remarks I've seen since this entire bankruptcy procedure began..."How paralyzed they are" does change things. Detroit is not out of money. The same way that Detroit fudges the numbers on how many fires there have been during this Halloween and every Halloween since the 80's, the same way numbers are moved, changed, or removed within the budget
...
I am outraged at all the people who put Detroit where it is today, past and present. I am outraged at people like you who don't care what happens to guys like Dougie and to retirees [[and I am one) who, while maybe not giving the ultimate sacrifice, gave years of their lives to Detroit only to have a few people come to town and turn their backs on everyone.

I feel for Dougie, but it doesn't change the financial facts. For me this isn't an emotional issue, it's a dollars and cents issue.

The City of Detroit is not a charity. The City of Detroit can no longer afford to be a Michigan Lottery "Cash for Life" instant ticket for anyone that works there.

Yes, it sucks for the people that will have pension benefits reduced, but that's the reality of morally bankrupt leaders that make promises to hard working folks that they can't keep.

Folks want to blame Orr, Snyder, and The Man when they see folks in terrible situations like these pensioners and disabled folks.

However, the alternative to state intervention is WORSE. The city if left to its own devices would never file for bankruptcy. The entire thing would completely implode and pensioners would get little to NOTHING, compared to the reduced benefits they'll get with state intervention.

No one else has a solution. The only solution is better than no solution. These stories and blame games only distract from that reality.

[Danny]

I feel sorry for that Detroit firefighter losing the lifetime pension for the dead broke City Gov't. Bad times are going to happen to people, so be prepared, ready and say your prayers. Leave your life into God's hands and he will provide your needs. It worked for me.

[313WX]

And I don't think most retirees will LOSE their Pensions entirely. There may just be an adjustment downward in their payments.

[corktownyuppie]

And I don't think most retirees will LOSE their Pensions entirely. There may just be an adjustment downward in their payments.

I am actual certain that retirees will not LOSE their pension entirely. It's arithmetically impossible. There's $3.5 Billion -- with a "B" -- in the pension trust. None of that money will go to the bond holders, banks, "banksters", etc.

The only thing we don't know is whether or not those funds will be sufficient to make all the pension payments. So there may be a gradual adjustment downward....there might be a freeze in COLAs...it's still undetermined.

But the poster above you is right. If we do nothing, then the city will truly collapse and the retirees will get less than if they just settle for some lump sum buyout.

I wish that Detroit were a publicly traded entity so that pensioners could be offered an equity stake in exchange for wiping away or reducing the city liabilities. Maybe there's some kind of deal where the pension trustees could participate in future property tax revenue growth or some equivalent.

[Cliffy]

I am just amazed at the people all ready to go full blast and cut people's pensions and health care. You will be old and sick someday too. It happens to everyone. Have some fucking compassion.

[Scottathew]

I am just amazed at the people all ready to go full blast and cut people's pensions and health care. You will be old and sick someday too. It happens to everyone. Have some fucking compassion.

Compassion and emotion do NOT matter. Having compassion will not make money for the city. Healthcare and pension checks cost real dollars, something that Detroit doesn't have.

Cliffy, what alternative do you propose? Not cutting benefits until all the money dries up and everyone is abruptly cut off at once? Is that a better solution?

Detroit's pension and other debt obligations are not sustainable. That's why the banks are taking a huge bath, and the pensioners are going to get hurt too.

A person with compassion would want to do something before they're all screwed.

[Locke09]

Broke is not when your debts exceed your assets. It is when your debt payments exceed your income [[revenue) and assets. Detroit is not there, although I fully expect the bankruptcy to be approved.

It was just reported that Detroit has a cash balance of 128 million this past quarter. Part of this is from withholding debt payments. So, Detroit could pay the pension contribution it owes this year today. The entire debt is very long term debt payable over several decades - not immediately due.

Stop ignoring the fact that Detroit is largely making the case that it needs to divert the money it could use to pay debts to improving city services.

So this is a case of whether it is better to give that paralyzed firefighter what was promised to him or turn more streetlights on. That is the question. At least be honest about that and admit you care more about your comfort and potential for reduced taxes than keeping a promise to a paralyzed firefighter.

Do the citizens have a right to cry about the priority of approved services over promised pensions and healthcare right now? I say no. The citizens voted for all of those bond initiatives that put the city deeper and deeper in debt. The citizens voted for the elected officials that mismanaged the city. The citizens voted for the governors that reneged on promised revenue sharing. What are we teaching our children, grandchildren, etc.? Rack up the debt and then declare bankruptcy and say you are doing it for the good of the children. Stop pretending the poor citizens have a right to be held harmless. I say they do not.

[313WX]

Broke is not when your debts exceed your assets. It is when your debt payments exceed your income [[revenue) and assets.

There are two types of insolvency:

"Cash Flow Insolvency" [[what you describe)

and

"Balance Sheet Insolvency" [[when the liabilities exceeds the assets).

We know for certain, indisputably, that Detroit is "Balance Sheet Insolvency." This type of insolvency doesn't necessarily signal "doom." There are tons of businesses [[Ford Motor Company for example) and municipalities [[Chicago and the state of Illinois) for example that are also "Balance Sheet Insolvent."

The difference between Detroit and Ford or Chicago is that they [[Ford and Chicago) both have enough revenue coming in to meet their debt obligations. The very reason Detroit doesn't have enough revenue coming in to meet these obligations is because the city has starved its taxpayers of vital services to fund these retirement benefits [[I say fuck Detroit and whatever so-called comeback if I can't get a police officer to show up to my house in a reasonable time when someone breaks into my house, I'll just leave and take my money to a place that values it, such as Troy or Allen Park or Sterling Heights!!!).

Although Detroit technically has cash in the bank presently, that's only because, as you stated, Detroit's not paying off the debts that are due [[debts can include payroll for current employees, vendor contracts and services as well, not just bonds and retirement benefits). If Detroit were kicked out of bankruptcy court and forced [[as stated before, the retirees and banks could sue the city to get the money they're owed) to pay the debts on its bonds and retirement benefits as well [[keep in mind City Council delayed several Pension payments over the past two years), then it would also be "Cash Flow Insolvent."

So what's the long and short of everything I said? You're debating semantics. Either way you slice it, Detroit's broke, plain and simple.

So at this point, the city must find a way to align its debt obligations and its revenues. This way, Detroit doesn't default on any of the debts owed now or in the future. Obviously, given the state Detroit is in now, there's no practical way to increase revenues to the point where the city would be able to pay off all of its debts. So the only other option we have is to decrease the debts the city owes.

Otherwise, as corktownyuppie stated, if Detroit continued what it had been doing, then the city would have truly collapsed [[as more taxpayers fleed the city) and the retirees would get even less than what they're going to get now.

[jt1]

If Detroit is not granted bankruptcy protection, everyone [[pensioners, bondholders, city vendors) will have legal right to file for liens against city property and tax revenues. City buildings, furniture, land, artwork, and incoming revenue could be taken, leaving little left for the residents. Bankruptcy is awful but provides for the city's people to still have some services. Bankruptcy is our friend. I hope the court realizes that.

Let's me crystal clear here, a significant number of retirees [[especially those out of state and out of the region) don't give a shit about the residents or services they receive. There is 0 willingness to negotiate or give up one penny regardless of the impact to the citizens. I can assure you that people like Ray and CLA don't care if a bomb is dropped on the city as long as they don't take any sort of hit

[jt1]

I am just amazed at the people all ready to go full blast and cut people's pensions and health care. You will be old and sick someday too. It happens to everyone. Have some fucking compassion.

Where is the compassion for the residents paying property tax and getting near zero services? I assume having a situation where school girls get raped in abandoned buildings or kids die in house fire because DFD doesn't have properly functioning equipment is acceptable to you as long as a retiree doesn't get a cut in their pensions.

I find it funny that people are asking for sympathy for the retirees when they have no sympathy for the residents. Perhaps a taking their own ad"vice would go a long ways for changing some perceptions. Or they can continue saying, "F you, pay me