Paralyzed firefighter to lose insurance

[jt1]

I'm guessing the "lets cut people's pension" clan is under 40 and healthy and thus immortal and they will all be rich because they put 5500 away per year in an ira. These people have a wakeup call coming.

I'm guessing the 'we won't give up one penny of our pension' crowd realize that the generation younger than them will be the first generation in the history of the US to have a lower quality of life than the previous generation.

Kudos to the baby boomer [[or slightly older generation) for their great decisions and unselfish ways.

[313WX]

I think I have read most of Ray's comments on a number orf different threads here on DetroitYes...I have never read anything from Ray stating what you accuse him of saying above. I have never made any disparaging remarks about Detroit residents or made any racial remarks. If you can find them, please feel free to share them.

Here's one from Ray1936 back on 10/22/13

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...e-Streetlights

Turn out ALL the lights. The party's over.

[Wesley Mouch]

I think that we should bill former Detroiters for their share of the retiree benefits and pensions. If you lived in Detroit from 1960 to 1990, you shouldn't be off the hook for paying your fair share just because you moved to the suburbs.

Everybody wants to shit on Detroit for not "paying our bills", but what about the 800,000 people who moved out of the city over the last 30 years? Why don't they have to help pay for the retirees who provided services for them?

The retirees aren't getting shafted by Detroit, they are getting shafted by the hundreds of thousands of FORMER Detroiters who left the city and shirked their debts. The taxes are much lower and the services are better in a new suburb like Canton or Auburn Hills, because there are no retirees collecting benefits from a suburb that didn't exist 30 years ago.

Former Detroiters and city retirees like to accuse the city of screwing them out of benefits, but they don't realize that they have screwed themselves. When 60-70% of the residents and businesses flee the city, and are no longer paying into the system that supports their benefits, this is what happens.

The lure of lower taxes and better services is very attractive, but there is a price to be paid for that.

Don't blame the city or current Detroiters for your benefit reductions, because we pay more for retiree benefits than anybody else, blame the former Detroiters who left the city, and don't pay anything into the system.

Erik, you took a lot of flak for this post -- but you do touch on a very important point. There is an unfunded social obligation to retirees created by people who no longer share in the burden. I strongly believe we do have an obligation to ensure that pensioners are taken care of.

I don't agree that their pensions can't be touched. Some promises were unreasonable. Obamacare is a fact of life [[albeit a bit underhanded in its birth) and making it work for everyone is the law of the land. And of course we know that the assumption of the past was that there would be a prosperous city to fund retiree pensions. These were social assumptions. And while there are absurdities [[like retirement without disability before age 55 for example) the agreement was that guys like Ray1936 should be taken care of.

Now times are hard. And money's tight. So let's adjust the pensions to remove absurdities like early retirement, pension payments over $60,000 a year to anyone and then fund them at the State or Federal level.

What we can't do is say that we 'can't touch one cent' and then also say that someone else has to pay. That's too much.

Then we have to stop letting cities [[and such) make pension promises too. Turkia and that WC guy who bought time worked to get a six-digit pensions must be stopped. Now.

So my plan:

1) Adjust pensions reasonably.

2) Stop any pensions above 65% of average wage for current workers

3) Fund [[and thus manage) at state level.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I think it's useful to remember that no one is proposing [[no one in power, anyway) to make zero payments to the pensioners. They'll just get less, not nothing. And, while I am in my 30s, I have no intention to stop working until I am at least in my 70s. Both of my private-sector parents are still working in their mid-60s. There is nothing wrong with working past traditional public sector retirement ages. Most people live into their 80s or longer now.

And I must restate for the 1000th time: THAT DETROIT WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO MEET IT'S PENSION OBLIGATIONS IS NO SURPRISE TO ANYONE.​

[313WX]

You are way off base! I think I have read most of Ray's comments on a number orf different threads here on DetroitYes...I have never read anything from Ray stating what you accuse him of saying above. I have never made any disparaging remarks about Detroit residents or made any racial remarks. If you can find them, please feel free to share them

A post by cla1945 on 8/6/13

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...779#post397779

Media just reported that only 17% of the population will vote today at the rate it's going now. What a shame. You want change, you need change, you demand better...but you don't participate. What's wrong with people? Things in Detroit won't just change without change in the administration [[even with Orr at the helm today). Orr will leave and someone will have to take over. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Duegon gets more votes than many of the candidates who are qualified. The "I don't care" attitude is alive and well in Detroit.

[313WX]

You are way off base! I think I have read most of Ray's comments on a number orf different threads here on DetroitYes...I have never read anything from Ray stating what you accuse him of saying above. I have never made any disparaging remarks about Detroit residents or made any racial remarks. If you can find them, please feel free to share them

A post by cla1945 on 8/6/13

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?16828-so-who-voted-Duggan-and-Napoleon-Win-Detroit-Mayoral-Primary&p=397779#post397779

Media just reported that only 17% of the population will vote today at the rate it's going now. What a shame. You want change, you need change, you demand better...but you don't participate. What's wrong with people? Things in Detroit won't just change without change in the administration [[even with Orr at the helm today). Orr will leave and someone will have to take over. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Duegon gets more votes than many of the candidates who are qualified. The "I don't care" attitude is alive and well in Detroit.

A post by cla1945 on 6/25/13

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?16540-Detroit-fireworks-marred-by-at-least-two-unexplained-stampedes&p=390145#post390145

From a reliable source, an officer who was there, on the frontlines at the fireworks last night...DPD has been instructed to keep a closed mouth on the subject. There were at least 3 shooting incidents downtown last night, a DPD officer was hit by a car and his leg was broken. Juveniles were running rampant, they were being detained, parents were being contacted and they were very indignant as to why their kid was being detained. I guess the curfew didn't matter to them.

The fireworks is a tradition in downtown Detroit and the powers that be want people to think that Downtown is perfectly safe at all times. There were more State Police there than Detroit Police. Security was everywhere and yet the thugs that wish to disrupt a nice, family event, were still able to do so.

Until laws change and laws can be enforced; until parents take charge of these dysfunctional kids [[of course, most are dysfunctional parents); Detroit will not change. It's not the City government, it's not the State, it's not the church...the parents are responsible for their children and it's time to start placing the blame squarely where it belongs...in their laps!

A post by cla1945 on 6/20/13

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?16510-Orr-orders-probe-of-city-s-pension-funds&p=389480#post389480

Wesley, I thought that Kwame would be a good mayor. He had that "something" that made me think he was a good man...boy was I wrong. But that was the first election. The second one, when he was voted in again, I couldn't believe that Detroiters would let him rape and pillage the city again. I thought Bing could help, he's been a talking head with nothing of importance coming out of his mouth. Detroiters will probably elect Barrow, the habitual loser this November.

The State should have been in Detroit years ago, looking into this pension thing. Too many hands in the cookie jar, too much easy access to actual dollars, too many foxes in the hen house...and on and on and on....

A post by cla1945 on 5/17/13

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?16286-James-Craig-Kevyn-Orr-More-cops-on-the-street&p=384074#post384074

The DPD has their hands tied by lots of red tape. Instead of officers handcuffing the thugs, the City handcuffs the cops and won't let them do their jobs. Paperwork is overwhelming on a daily basis. One arrest can take 6 to 7 hours of a shift for one officer. It has to be made more streamlined, there has to be more help back at booking. Thugs have to be babysat at the hospital if they complain of a back problem or chest pains or whatever they can think of at the time. I am condensing this, but maybe you get the idea. Are you aware that whenever a perp is in custody and is taken the the hospital, the City of Detroit is responsible for the medical bills? Some of these perps are offered better medical care than the cops families receive...unbelieveable.

A post by cla1945 on 4/22/13

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?16099-Why-do-so-many-people-in-Detroit-walk-in-the-street&p=379830#post379830

You're just itching for an argument aren't you?

Whether walking in the street is illegal or not, it's a stupid, idiotic thing to do when there are sidewalks to walk on. Especially the way people drive today, not paying attention to traffic signals, texting, talking, drunk...why would anyone choose to just walk in the street? Defiance is my answer...it's the "because I can" and "I don't follow rules" mentality.

A post by cla1945 on 6/28/12

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?13951-Warren-teenager-shot-in-Centerline-fireworks-show&p=328036#post328036

At the Centerline fireworks there were people standing in the middle of the street flashing gang signs just before the shooting. [[From a very reliable source). Centerline never had a gang problem so where are the gangs coming from now?

A post by cla1945 ON 7/2/12

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?13987-Baby-Zyia-Death-on-Brinker-Street&p=328769#post328769

In response to Comment #33, those people had a choice to either live clean, free from bugs and clutter or to live like animals. They chose to live like animals. It doesn't take a lot of brains or a lot of money to buy a bar of soap or to straighten up a home. I'll bet their cars are pristine with expensive speakers and fancy wheels. I'll bet they have plenty of bling. The house was a pig sty. It's all about priorities and the children are not at the top of the list.

A post by cla1945 on 8/1/12

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?14202-HFCC-Student-killed-2-others-wounded-in-Detroit-Barber-Shop-shooting&p=333595#post333595

If I am reading these posts correctly, a barbershop is a santuary, a safe haven, a place with unwritten rules where no crimes shall take place....is that what I am reading about the "culture of black barbershops"?

So, I guess a home where children are sleeping, a church parking lot where an elderly gentleman is guarding, gas stations, everywhere else is fair game for the thugs to kill someone. The thugs who shot the young man must not be aware of or understand...or even care about some things in their own culture.

Sorry if this post sounds a bit sarcastic, but when I read posts talking about black culture of barbershops and the community they serve and this shooting should not have taken place inside, outside or near the shop, the explanation is absurd.

A post by cla1945 on 1/06/13

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?15332-Another-Teen-shot-and-killed-during-armed-robbery&p=360408#post360408

Bring back S.T.R.E.S.S.

A post by cla1945 on 2/10/13

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?15622-Any-Witnesses-to-the-Wildings-02-09-2013&p=366867#post366867

We were kids once, we were restless, we never went out and created chaos and threatened people's lives. We never went into a restaurant and threw tables and chairs around. We never had confrontations with the police.

Keep on making excuses for these criminals, enable them to continue with this type of behavior. Don't ask them to take responsibility for their actions. Perpetuate the dependency on government for your living, your health care, your life.

The definition of "restless" sure has taken on a new meaning.

A post by cla1945 on 2/10/13

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?15622-Any-Witnesses-to-the-Wildings-02-09-2013&p=366736#post366736

From my reliable source who was there last night, after they rampaged through the stores, they took off for the transit center. A couple of officers were hurt.

I can only equate it to a stampede of while animals trampling on the good citizens who are trying to enjoy what little left Detroit has to offer.

A post by cla1945 on 2/2/13

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?15559-Bing-closing-50-parks&p=365525#post365525

Are you actually saying that I'm incorrect in my assumptions that most of the people in the audience at the council meetings regarding Belle Isle, and that Watson and Kenyatta are not racist?

I don't care if you take me seriously or not, my opinions are mine.

A post by cla1945 on 2/1/13

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?13275-Belle-Isle-as-a-State-Park-UPDATE-Snyder-Withdraws-Offer&p=365311#post365311

Close Belle Isle, too. Close them all. See what happens.

A little chain link rope closing off a road isn't going to keep people away. No trash cans...just throw the crap on the ground. No open bathrooms...the park is your toilet. The EM needs to come in and get rid of all the clowncil and the mayor. I want to be there when Watson is locked out of her office.

[Wesley Mouch]

...And I must restate for the 1000th time: THAT DETROIT WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO MEET IT'S PENSION OBLIGATIONS IS NO SURPRISE TO ANYONE.​

The only people who argue against this are those that were relying on a guarantee by others rather than acting responsibly to protect their interests. Everyone -- especially the trustees -- had to know that this system was collapsing. Instead of battening down the hatches years ago -- they handed out 13th monthly checks.

[Cliffy]

I think it's useful to remember that no one is proposing [[no one in power, anyway) to make zero payments to the pensioners. They'll just get less, not nothing. And, while I am in my 30s, I have no intention to stop working until I am at least in my 70s. Both of my private-sector parents are still working in their mid-60s. There is nothing wrong with working past traditional public sector retirement ages. Most people live into their 80s or longer now.

And I must restate for the 1000th time: THAT DETROIT WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO MEET IT'S PENSION OBLIGATIONS IS NO SURPRISE TO ANYONE.​

Yeah but nobody cares about you and your parents who want to work until death. I'm concerned about the 75 year former garbage man who is getting an 18k pension that you want to cut and tell him to go back to work. This country and its people are a cold bunch. No other country in the western world does this.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Cliffy, those people also get Social Security and Medicare, too. And perhaps they should consider civil litigation against their well paid union reps who knowingly put them in this situation. Two things cannot be successfully denied:
1) Detroit doesn't and won't have the money to pay their full pension, cry though some will.
2) Demographics are constantly changing, putting stress on pension obligations in both the public and private sector, and creating an ever-longer lifespan, necessitating either more aggressive saving earlier or working considerably longer.

No sob stories undo that.

[Zacha341]

More collapses are coming! Kick-the-can-down-the-road policies and responses at the federal level and the resulting cash flow interruptions will increase in severity and impact. The breaking point is nearing....

The only people who argue against this are those that were relying on a guarantee by others rather than acting responsibly to protect their interests. Everyone -- especially the trustees -- had to know that this system was collapsing. Instead of battening down the hatches years ago -- they handed out 13th monthly checks.

[corktownyuppie]

My father is a retired DWSD employee, and he and I were talking about this as early as 2002. The conclusion we came to was that as long as the pension obligations of DWSD were treated as liabilities on the DWSD side, then he would be fine. But if the pensions were treated as liabilities against the general fund, then he'd be in trouble if the city's finances became iffy. That was 5 years after he had moved out of the city.

Yeah but nobody cares about you and your parents who want to work until death. I'm concerned about the 75 year former garbage man who is getting an 18k pension that you want to cut and tell him to go back to work.

First of all, if the pension trustees are to be believed, the shortfall is only 20%, so the garbage man would lose $300/mo...the city has offered to pick up $60 out of the $300. That brings the shortfall to $240....

This country and its people are a cold bunch. No other country in the western world does this.

...Now if you think this country and its people are a cold bunch, then all you need to do is PROPOSE WHO PAYS THE MISSING $240. Detroit can't do it. It simply won't have the money.


Are you saying the State should pick it up?
Are you saying the Feds should pick it up?
How about the trustees pick it up by suspending COLAs for 10 years?
Maybe some of it could be picked up for residents of the city by offering them credits against their income or property tax?
Maybe some combination of all 4?

I don't want you or my father to have either of their pensions cut. So make an argument over who should pick up the missing $240.

Talking about how unfair this is won't create the money. I think you can make a strong case that the state needs to pick up part of this tab. There are other ways to be creative.

But take some ownership over the problem and start generating some solutions because whining about how unfair it is just turns off the people [[like me) who actually DO give a damn and want to find some way out of the mess.

[cla1945]

My father is a retired DWSD employee, and he and I were talking about this as early as 2002. The conclusion we came to was that as long as the pension obligations of DWSD were treated as liabilities on the DWSD side, then he would be fine. But if the pensions were treated as liabilities against the general fund, then he'd be in trouble if the city's finances became iffy. That was 5 years after he had moved out of the city


First of all, if the pension trustees are to be believed, the shortfall is only 20%, so the garbage man would lose $300/mo...the city has offered to pick up $60 out of the $300. That brings the shortfall to $240.


...Now if you think this country and its people are a cold bunch, then all you need to do is PROPOSE WHO PAYS THE MISSING $240. Detroit can't do it. It simply won't have the money.


Are you saying the State should pick it up?
Are you saying the Feds should pick it up?
How about the trustees pick it up by suspending COLAs for 10 years?
Maybe some of it could be picked up for residents of the city by offering them credits against their income or property tax?
Maybe some combination of all 4?

I don't want you or my father to have either of their pensions cut. So make an argument over who should pick up the missing $240.

Talking about how unfair this is won't create the money. I think you can make a strong case that the state needs to pick up part of this tab. There are other ways to be creative.

But take some ownership over the problem and start generating some solutions because whining about how unfair it is just turns off the people [[like me) who actually DO give a damn and want to find some way out of the mess.

Please tell me where you got the information about the City picking up any portion of the cuts they may propose, I'd appreciate it.

[corktownyuppie]

Please tell me where you got the information about the City picking up any portion of the cuts they may propose, I'd appreciate it.

I stand corrected. It wasn't 20%, it was 16%. I was incorrect and made an error...my apologies.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...0IF0LG20131025

Buckfire, a Detroit native and investment banker with restructuring experience, later told the court the city plans to pay unsecured creditors, including the city's pensioners, 16 cents on the dollar.

My complaint about the way this is all reported is that the common man has no f-ing idea what to make of it. My parents called up freaking out that the City was going to cut my father's pension from $2,000/mo. down to $320/mo.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

I explained to them that City isn't cutting their whole pension. Much of the pension is already funded by the pension fund and is untouchable. The City is only talking about the portion which is unfunded.

"Well, how much is that?" was the obvious next question, which they asked.
And I had to respond, "That's part of the problem...no one can be quite sure because it's based on unknowns like how long people live, or how well the investments in the fund do. If everyone dies at age 72, or if the investments all earn 14% per year, then you're fine. If everyone dies at age 90, or if the investments all earn 2% per year, then the fund will be short."

How short? Well...the trustees [[who are trying to keep their jobs) say 20% short. The City, who is trying to be conservative...says 40% short. We don't know.

So the pension has between 60-80% of the funds it needs, and the city is [[or was) willing to make up 16% of the amount that was short.

Translation? There's still too much unknown...and too many of the people involved don't understand the complex math. And the people who are most likely to understand the complex math are under pressure to keep their jobs as trustees by either inflating how good a job they're doing or painting Orr as a thief or telling everyone the City is going take all their money or all 3.

By the way, the 16 cents on the dollar option was *before* bankruptcy court. That offer may no longer be on the table. Or who knows...maybe the court allows the City to pay zero and forces the State to pick up the tab.

[Scottathew]

This country and its people are a cold bunch. No other country in the western world does this.

Numbers are numbers sir. If you fully pay out on a partially funded pension, you're going to dry up your pension fund, then instead of a reduced benefit, you get no benefit.

The city can no longer afford to bailout the pension fund [[which it has done for decades).

The state and federal government will not be bailing out Detroit.

The metro area, which has ran away from the pension system in many financially stable cities, is not going to bail out Detroit.

Cliffy, it's not a matter of being compassionate, it's a matter of covering the unfunded liabilities, or reducing the benefits. You must do one or the other.

This is what many financially conservative people have been screaming about for decades, pensions in many cases are not setup in a sustainable way, especially when a workforce shrinks and you have less money going into the fund. In many regards, pensions are ponzi schemes; they collapse when you don't get enough new blood in the scheme to pay off the people who are already in it.