Detroit is the Nexus of New American Apartheid:

[hortonz]

Well, since 2007, that same government has been picking winners and losers, and has shut quite a few smaller banks that didn't have rampant problems with abuse and criminality. If you want to help black-owned banks, seems to me that shoring up equality of education and opportunity would be the best step, not protecting banks per se. Blacks are last hired and first fired, and all the wealth accumulated by blacks since the 1990s has been wiped out, largely due to the criminality of the big banks. That's what's endangering black-owned banks, not nationalization, which I don't think has even been brought up here.According to FDIC, there were 54 black-owned banks in 1994.In 2013, there are 21.Skewed federal social policy and institutional racism are at work there, not a heavy hand with black-owned banks.Like a lot of Americans, I feel that law enforcement spends too much time policing people with black skin, and not enough time policing people with white collars.

The failure of blacks to achieve self-sufficiency is entirely the fault of white America? What about the choices made by blacks on where to spend their dollars?

[Detroitnerd]

The failure of blacks to achieve self-sufficiency is entirely the fault of white America? What about the choices made by blacks on where to spend their dollars?

I don't think I said entirely.

[Wesley Mouch]

Well, what color was the skin of the political leaders who groomed him for office? What color was the skin of the business leaders who bankrolled his run and paid him off when he blew it? I've seen George Jackson and the fire chief and lots of other high-placed city officials going out to some of the finer restaurants downtown, and they were all meeting with pink-faced businessmen. I think people have exaggerated ideas of the kind of politics ethnic block voting engenders. Sure, the leaders are black, but they're just gaming the system and making self-serving deals with the white power structure, even if they pander to their constituents like demagogues.

Detroit is Chinatown, right? So the well-connected businesspeople milk the city for abatements and subsidies. The black political class milks the city for paychecks and future favors. And the city continues to suffer. Just because they're popularly elected doesn't mean they're not venal and self-interested.

Take off your cloudy racist glasses. It'll do a lot for your understanding. I don't find value in adding race to the conversation. Sure, it remains a problem. But its solvable, and its solving itself as nearly everyone in the world has family members from all cultures. Fifty years ago, it may have been a crucial issue in America. It just isn't today. Seeing the world through racists glasses hurts everyone -- but mostly hurts those who need help most. Pay attention -- yes. Make it the center of the world -- no.

These days nobody in power cares enough about race to work so hard to oppress anyone.

[JBMcB]

A surefire way to fix the situation is to require all municipalities to operate under balanced budgets - i.e. no bond sales allowed. If you want a new city hall building, save up your pennies until you can afford one.

Or, we could cook up all kinds of convoluted regulations on muni bond markets and hope they work properly.

[Hermod]

A surefire way to fix the situation is to require all municipalities to operate under balanced budgets - i.e. no bond sales allowed. If you want a new city hall building, save up your pennies until you can afford one.

Or, we could cook up all kinds of convoluted regulations on muni bond markets and hope they work properly.

Well, you often need things now. One of the most common bonds is water and sewer district bonds to extend service into a new area with the bonds to be repaid from the resulting revenue stream. I would prefer the water and sewer district set aside funds each year for the eventual replacement of the lines at the end of their useful life and reserve the bonded indebtedness for expansion.

Toll roads and toll bridges are another example of wise use of bonded indebtedness with revenue from the tolls pledged to pay the interest and the amortization on the bonds.

School districts in areas having rapid growth often need to float bonds for new schools. Since schools produce no "revenue stream" those bonds are often based on the "full faith and credit" of the district/locality though often they will have a dedicated millage for the bond service.

Other examples include hospital authorities, public housing authorities, and stadium authorities.

Just as a note, the market thinks that DWSD is going to come out of the bankruptcy OK. As of 30 September, DWSD 5.75% bonds are still trading at a premium of 106.38 compared to a par of 100.00

[Detroitnerd]

Take off your cloudy racist glasses. It'll do a lot for your understanding. I don't find value in adding race to the conversation. Sure, it remains a problem. But its solvable, and its solving itself as nearly everyone in the world has family members from all cultures. Fifty years ago, it may have been a crucial issue in America. It just isn't today. Seeing the world through racists glasses hurts everyone -- but mostly hurts those who need help most. Pay attention -- yes. Make it the center of the world -- no.

These days nobody in power cares enough about race to work so hard to oppress anyone.

Yeah, um, that's a sort of glib view of things. The face of race relations has changed a lot, but not much in the pecking order, mostly in the way individual people feel. But if our institutions act much the same way individuals used to, then we still have a very serious problem to deal with.

Sure, white folks are less likely to toss around N-bombs [[though they still do, plenty). White gangs of young kids are less likely to attack black kids walking through their neighborhoods. Neighborhood homeowners associations are less likely to petition black people to move from their neighborhoods. But the larger institutions still favor whites over blacks, and that results in situations where people can say, "Well, I'm not a racist. I don't know any racists. Therefore you're just clouding the issues by bringing up this fictional problem."

It's not fictional or imagined or even something we seem to be able to fight. The disparities in this country, despite the appearance of a small elite of African-American celebrities, are worsening, not improving. When black people face difficulties where white people don't, what the heck is that but racism?

When the percentage of adult African-Americans in poverty rises from 19.8 percent in 2007 to 23 percent in 2010, much more than whites ... that's racism at work.

When blacks are incarcerated at nearly SIX TIMES the rate of whites ... that's racism at work.

When median black household income fell 10.1 percent between 2007 and 2010, compared to 5.4 percent for white households during that same period ... that's racism at work.

When black family median income drops from about $44K in 2000 to $39,715 in 2010 ... that's racism at work.

When five times as many whites are using drugs as blacks, and yet blacks are sent to prison for drug offenses at 10 times the rate of whites ... that's racism at work.

When the percentage of black children in poverty rises from 34.5 percent in 2007 to to 39.1 percent in 2010 ... that's racism at work.

When the the formal unemployment rate for blacks jumps from 9 percent in June 2007 to 14.5 percent in August 2012 ... that's racism at work.

When the highest annual unemployment rate for whites since the onset of the Great Recession [[8 percent) has never exceeded the pre-recession annual unemployment rate [[8.3 percent) for blacks ... that's racism at work.

When blacks are nearly twice as likely as whites to have zero or negative net worth — 33.9 percent compared to 18.6 percent — that's racism at work.

Now, all this may well be the kind of racism that doesn't involve stars-and-bars, white hoods, burning crosses or public lynchings, but institutional racism plays a large role in who gets the goods from this society and who doesn't. Who is first to be hired and last to be fired. Who gets paid enough to save and start his own business and who doesn't.

So go ahead and accuse people who are passionate about social equality and fighting racism of wearing "racist-colored glasses." But if you look at the facts, you'll see that those who you scold may just have their eyes wide open, and you may not have realized you had some serious blinders on.

[JBMcB]

Well, you often need things now.

Then you run with a buffer of capital for such contingencies.

There are quite a few cities that operate like this. Granted, they are usually relatively small. They don't have fancy rec centers, shiny new libraries and sports stadiums and city halls.

They do, however, provide good quality, basic city services to all of their residents.

[Danny]

You tell 'em, Detroitnerd.

[Wesley Mouch]

Yeah, um, that's a sort of glib view of things. The face of race relations has changed a lot, but not much in the pecking order, mostly in the way individual people feel. But if our institutions act much the same way individuals used to, then we still have a very serious problem to deal with.

Sure, white folks are less likely to toss around N-bombs [[though they still do, plenty). White gangs of young kids are less likely to attack black kids walking through their neighborhoods. Neighborhood homeowners associations are less likely to petition black people to move from their neighborhoods. But the larger institutions still favor whites over blacks, and that results in situations where people can say, "Well, I'm not a racist. I don't know any racists. Therefore you're just clouding the issues by bringing up this fictional problem."

It's not fictional or imagined or even something we seem to be able to fight. The disparities in this country, despite the appearance of a small elite of African-American celebrities, are worsening, not improving. When black people face difficulties where white people don't, what the heck is that but racism?

When the percentage of adult African-Americans in poverty rises from 19.8 percent in 2007 to 23 percent in 2010, much more than whites ... that's racism at work.

When blacks are incarcerated at nearly SIX TIMES the rate of whites ... that's racism at work.

When median black household income fell 10.1 percent between 2007 and 2010, compared to 5.4 percent for white households during that same period ... that's racism at work.

When black family median income drops from about $44K in 2000 to $39,715 in 2010 ... that's racism at work.

When five times as many whites are using drugs as blacks, and yet blacks are sent to prison for drug offenses at 10 times the rate of whites ... that's racism at work.

When the percentage of black children in poverty rises from 34.5 percent in 2007 to to 39.1 percent in 2010 ... that's racism at work.

When the the formal unemployment rate for blacks jumps from 9 percent in June 2007 to 14.5 percent in August 2012 ... that's racism at work.

When the highest annual unemployment rate for whites since the onset of the Great Recession [[8 percent) has never exceeded the pre-recession annual unemployment rate [[8.3 percent) for blacks ... that's racism at work.

When blacks are nearly twice as likely as whites to have zero or negative net worth — 33.9 percent compared to 18.6 percent — that's racism at work.

Now, all this may well be the kind of racism that doesn't involve stars-and-bars, white hoods, burning crosses or public lynchings, but institutional racism plays a large role in who gets the goods from this society and who doesn't. Who is first to be hired and last to be fired. Who gets paid enough to save and start his own business and who doesn't.

So go ahead and accuse people who are passionate about social equality and fighting racism of wearing "racist-colored glasses." But if you look at the facts, you'll see that those who you scold may just have their eyes wide open, and you may not have realized you had some serious blinders on.

Not buying it DNerd... Lots of problems. I just don't see how racism causes the problems you list. For example -- because more blacks use drugs, whites are racist? I do see the problems you list. And racism has contributed to many of them to lesser or greater degrees. And sure there is racism to work on. But its best worked on from a position of love -- not broad generalizations. They harm your cause.

[Lowell]

A surefire way to fix the situation is to require all municipalities to operate under balanced budgets - i.e. no bond sales allowed. If you want a new city hall building, save up your pennies until you can afford one.

Or, we could cook up all kinds of convoluted regulations on muni bond markets and hope they work properly.

Ideally there would be a statute requiring 10-15% revenue be sent to a savings fund. The fund could be used only for big capital projects where bonding would normally occur. The public would have to elect politicians who had convinced them pay off existing bonds while saving for the future, in other words pay more taxes. Good luck.

History has shown that as soon as government accumulates savings, a no taxes crowd will start crying that taxes should be cut. We saw that after the federal budget surpluses of 1998-2002. Taxes were cut and the results were predictable.

The nature of politics requires politicians to deliver something now and pay for it later or, in some cases like Detroit, maybe never. It gets them elected and re-elected. Bonds have a great future.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I honestly feel sorry for you, Detroitnerd, for having such a jaded world view. You have proved your point about as well as if you had said all of Detroit's ills are the result of peanut butter at work. Is there racism in the world? Sure.
BUT:
1) Most people treat people of all races well.
2) The whole country, including Detroit, is much more free for everyone than years ago.
3) Problems that disproportionately affect black people are not necessarily perpetrated upon them by white people.
4) Social & family disistegration is at the heart of what afflicts our city's outlying neighborhoods. They cannot be fixed externally. No change in law or distribution of money will cause girls to not get pregnant or force parents to do homework with their kids or young men to avoid the temptation of drugs. Once upon a time there were horrible external forces of bigotry that kept the black community down. Those factors are now largely gone. But the once strong family and community of black inner cities [[especially Detroit) fell apart. When I go to church, I always pray for Detroit's families, because no billion dollar programs or developments will keep kids from getting killed or cause kids to graduate high school.

[Hermod]

History has shown that as soon as government accumulates savings, a no taxes crowd will start crying that taxes should be cut. We saw that after the federal budget surpluses of 1998-2002. Taxes were cut and the results were predictable.

Your memory is fuzzy. The Bush tax cuts were not a result of any surplus. When Bush took office the DotCom bust was ripping 90% of the value of tech stocks out of the market, the ENRON disaster occurred, and then the 9-11 attacks. The country was clearly slipping into recession. Despite the cuts, the increase in business activity caused personal income tax collections in 2005 to be higher than they were before the cuts.

[finster]

Racism is still sadly prevalent all across America but yet there is still only one Detroit. Trying to pin it all on big banks as just the latest convenient bogeyman is disingenuous at best. You could come up with dozens of equally important factors that led to this travesty and therein lies the problem.

Trust me, I am not trying to be an ass here but I am personally familiar with several cases of people in Detroit who conspired during the easy mortgage money free for all to bilk banks out of thousand or more like millions of dollars by taking out easy to get loans on dilapidated shacks that they may or may not have even owned. They had no problem forging appraisals and paperwork with their willing conspirators with the sole purpose of stealing money from said banks and investors. And I'm sure the Federal government was stuck with paying off these bogus FHA loans, thus increasing the national debt.

Yet I am not ignorant enough to equate this behavior with all home loans in Detroit that went bust because the world is not that simple.

What happened to Detroit is mostly the fault of the thousands of people here with Their boots on the ground and not a few mysterious bogeymen a few thousand miles away.

Not saying it didn't play a part but if that was the cause then why aren't LA, Chicago, Atlanta, etc. in exactly the same shape as Detroit?

[Detroitnerd]

Not buying it DNerd... Lots of problems. I just don't see how racism causes the problems you list. For example -- because more blacks use drugs, whites are racist? I do see the problems you list. And racism has contributed to many of them to lesser or greater degrees. And sure there is racism to work on. But its best worked on from a position of love -- not broad generalizations. They harm your cause.

Um, no. Rates of drug use among whites and blacks are about the same. Blacks get arrested more, sentenced to longer terms. This breaks up families, makes it harder for children to be raised properly, etc.

These aren't generalizations, Wes. They're facts. And if facts won't sway you ...

[Eber Brock Ward]

Nerd, I think some folks are ignoring the impact of institutionalized racism while you are placing undue weight upon it. Fact is, the cultural problems that Wes mentioned are real, and it's unfortunate that we generally do have conversations about the institutional issues and make efforts, as a culture, to change those issues, not matter how poor those efforts end up, but black leaders that try to have a conversation about black cultural issues get pooh-poohed. Look at Cosby for an example of how even having the conversation can't happen because of all that Southern bullcrap about "not airing dirty laundry in public" and all those other sayings like that, that came up here as part of the Great Migration.

Truth is, this needs to be attacked on both those ends. And when it gets attacked on the cultural front, it needs to start early and be about teaching people to fish instead of giving them fish.

[Detroitnerd]

Nerd, I think some folks are ignoring the impact of institutionalized racism while you are placing undue weight upon it. Fact is, the cultural problems that Wes mentioned are real, and it's unfortunate that we generally do have conversations about the institutional issues and make efforts, as a culture, to change those issues, not matter how poor those efforts end up, but black leaders that try to have a conversation about black cultural issues get pooh-poohed. Look at Cosby for an example of how even having the conversation can't happen because of all that Southern bullcrap about "not airing dirty laundry in public" and all those other sayings like that, that came up here as part of the Great Migration.

Truth is, this needs to be attacked on both those ends. And when it gets attacked on the cultural front, it needs to start early and be about teaching people to fish instead of giving them fish.

I'm not about to lecture poor people about the bad habits they pick up by being poor. I can't change their behavior anyway. I hear people say, "We need to change the culture," and I laugh. My own dad was raised poor, probably wound up maladjusted and badly socialized, was a drunk, had bad habits, and abused his family. I know he could never have been changed. But what I had was access to afterschool activities, good parks, public pools, public recreation programs, summer athletics, excellent public education and a host of other advantages, including some pretty cool mentors. I really think that trying to change parents is just about impossible. Trying to enrich the lives of their children, however, is something we can do.

But we can't do it in an environment in which institutional racism rules the day. Not when one hand slaps around the very subject the other hand is trying to help.

If I focus on institutional racism, it is first because this is something we are collectively responsible for and should be able to change.

Second, institutional racism is something that keeps our working people divided against each other. I'm sure in the fevered imagination of many working whites, black prosperity represents an economic threat. Nothing could be further from the truth. If we have a class of working people who are oppressed, the harm is not restricted to that class of working folks. It harms all of us.

White people who downplay racism, or worse yet subscribe to it, deny one overarching reality: The lives of all white and black working people are bound up together. Our destinies are intertwined. And if one group of us is economically disadvantaged and insecure, it hurts all of us.

So I will do my best to stick up for black folks. I will not lecture them on how to improve themselves. I will remain opposed to institutional racism and fight it where I can. And I eagerly await a day when some black kid from a rough family can be as grateful as I am that the system offered him some good alternatives and helped him rise above his disadvantages.

[Danny]

Your memory is fuzzy. The Bush tax cuts were not a result of any surplus. When Bush took office the DotCom bust was ripping 90% of the value of tech stocks out of the market, the ENRON disaster occurred, and then the 9-11 attacks. The country was clearly slipping into recession. Despite the cuts, the increase in business activity caused personal income tax collections in 2005 to be higher than they were before the cuts.

He's right, Mr. Boileau!

[Eber Brock Ward]

Thank you for the thoughtful response, though I don't entirely agree with you because I think we do need to change both.

Rather than reinvent the wheel, I am going to just copy/paste from something my wife wrote where we were discussing this in a more private environment, as we've discussed it at length and have essentially the same views. She captured some key issues so well in responding to "I'm curious why you'd say that [so many] of the kids in Detroit can't move up. Can you elaborate?" that I think it's not inappropriate to share here, if you are okay with the length of her response:

1) The schools are awful. Sometimes, teachers don't even show up for class and the students are left to fend for themselves. Say a kid works hard and makes straight As - he or she's still likely way under-educated because the schools are so terrible. There was a good article in the LA Times about a kid from the hood who worked his butt off to get a 4.0. Got to Berkeley and failed out; not for want of trying because he busted his butt at Berkeley. But his 4.0 at Ghetto High didn't do anything - he was so far below par he couldn't function. There are a few high schools in Detroit - magnet schools - that provide an education. There's a reason that the majority of Detroiters CANNOT READ. And then there's little to no information on college. Y'all take for granted the impetus you put on higher education for your own kids. There's no expectation of college for these kids. They have no idea about scholarships. IN fact, they have the opposite. Shitty for-profit "schools" and "colleges" marketing to them, getting them in for way too much tuition - most drop out and are then in debt, worse than they started. But so many don't know another way. They have no idea what the right path is. There IS a path but does it matter if they don't know that?

2) Crime/Blight. These kids are not growing up understanding what's "normal." They can't function in a normal world because their reality is so altered. I mentor a little girl in [[literally) Detroit's worst neighborhood. This is what she lives by:



She has three abandoned houses on her street next to her house. She turns the corner on her way to school and walks past this. Then some more empty lots and burned down houses before getting to her failing school. I'm 99% sure her neighbors are drug dealers. I'm scared when I'm alone on her street - there are always guys on "lookout" at that house and nice - NICE - cars out front. I'm scared there's going to be a drive-by someday.

I try to show her what "normal" is like. I've taken her to my office. I try to have [my husband] around so she can see what the interaction between a husband and wife is like [[her parents abandoned her; she's being raised by her grandma, who is also raising three of her other grandkids, one of whom is disabled). I am taking her to an orchard outside of the city this weekend, so she can see the petting zoo and pick apples. I take her to restaurants and teach her how to cook vegetables [[she loves asparagus).

America is extremely segregated and I am not just talking race. I mean, kids growing up will spend their entire existence around only poor people. The middle class, the rich, and whites are these mythical "things" of which they have understanding or attachment.

So why in the world do you just expect CHILDREN born in these circumstances to just somehow "get" that there's another way of living? They've never seen it, other than rappers and athletes [[and they do strive for those, a sign that most want success and are not content to just live on the gov't teat).

...

Kids need teaching - whether it be parents or a mentor. And poor kids have poor parents...we can get mad all day about poor parents, but there are consequences to ignoring their effect, and that's where we are today.

So that's why I'm aggravated. People are fine quarantining the poor in ghettos, content with shitty inner-city schools, don't care to try and mentor any of these kids, but are then confused as to why they don't have better values when they become of age [[in fact, the main comment is just to take away their voting rights instead of addressing the problem). What the hell did you think was going to happen? And now it is just compounding itself, generation by generation.

I love my mentee. She's an amazing girl and right now is on the right path. I am frustrated because I still think she's going to fail. I've talked to other mentors and the success rate is pretty low.

This is why I say that it's not just a societal issue but also a cultural issue. I don't care where the change in culture comes from -- whether it's parents/caretakers [[unfortunately, not likely), mentors or big brother/big sister types, coaches, whatever.

So many people that try to fix things grew up in a "culture of success," where it's expected that you go to college, or where it's abnormal to have a family member get in trouble with the law, or where they never have to fear for their safety walking to school[[!), and so on, and they totally don't get what the problems are because they cannot begin to understand the enormity and depth of what needs to take place.

That is what I mean by the "culture." I look at neighborhoods I remember from when I was a kid where you would see business owners and professionals that kids could look up to. You know, the lady with the bakery on the big street on the edge of the neighborhood, the guy that did small engine repair, the accountant with the nicer house and the Buick, etc. These kids, like her little, have almost NONE of that.

Instead, the culture that tons of kids are exposed to does not provide many good role models or prepare them to succeed in the real world. Which is a damned shame. The "conversation" I'm talking about is not a dressing-down of black culture, but rather a discussion on the obligations of folks to become mentors, to provide good examples, to not tolerate foolish behavior, and so on -- basically, to give kids at least some sort of glimpse of "normal" and accepted so that kids can have a chance. [[Which is why I said that it "needs to start early and be about teaching people to fish instead of giving them fish.")

[Eber Brock Ward]

And a little more. God, I love this woman.

And I also agree with dependency. We've got a real problem out there where government phones and TANF are the norm. Kids literally know nothing else.

I'm just frustrated with what appears to be a lack of realism by some on the right. Yes, parents SHOULD teach their kids certain values. But these parents are not, either because they are lazy or because they themselves don't know in the first place. So what do we do about it? Sit back and just demonize them? Or roll up the sleeves and fix it? Sitting back in your gated community and writing a check at an overpriced fundraiser isn't going to cut it - just like with government, tossing private money isn't going to solve the problem. You're mad that these kids don't understand capitalism? That they don't understand the beauty of the American dream? What are you doing to fix it? People think it's not their responsibility - and perhaps it isn't - but it sure as hell gonna come back and bite them in the butt. And here we are. The left is just throwing money at the problem and lining their own pockets while doing so. The right is not doing anything about it [[and many are not inclined to). And the problem is getting worse.

Never get a "Strong Black Woman" riled up, or she'll tear you a new ass!

[Danny]

Thank you for the thoughtful response, though I don't entirely agree with you because I think we do need to change both.

Rather than reinvent the wheel, I am going to just copy/paste from something my wife wrote where we were discussing this in a more private environment, as we've discussed it at length and have essentially the same views. She captured some key issues so well in responding to "I'm curious why you'd say that [so many] of the kids in Detroit can't move up. Can you elaborate?" that I think it's not inappropriate to share here, if you are okay with the length of her response:



This is why I say that it's not just a societal issue but also a cultural issue. I don't care where the change in culture comes from -- whether it's parents/caretakers [[unfortunately, not likely), mentors or big brother/big sister types, coaches, whatever.

So many people that try to fix things grew up in a "culture of success," where it's expected that you go to college, or where it's abnormal to have a family member get in trouble with the law, or where they never have to fear for their safety walking to school[[!), and so on, and they totally don't get what the problems are because they cannot begin to understand the enormity and depth of what needs to take place.

That is what I mean by the "culture." I look at neighborhoods I remember from when I was a kid where you would see business owners and professionals that kids could look up to. You know, the lady with the bakery on the big street on the edge of the neighborhood, the guy that did small engine repair, the accountant with the nicer house and the Buick, etc. These kids, like her little, have almost NONE of that.

Instead, the culture that tons of kids are exposed to does not provide many good role models or prepare them to succeed in the real world. Which is a damned shame. The "conversation" I'm talking about is not a dressing-down of black culture, but rather a discussion on the obligations of folks to become mentors, to provide good examples, to not tolerate foolish behavior, and so on -- basically, to give kids at least some sort of glimpse of "normal" and accepted so that kids can have a chance. [[Which is why I said that it "needs to start early and be about teaching people to fish instead of giving them fish.")

America is what America does. It least this nation and its culture is not like a third world nations like Burma or totalitarian communist like North Korea. America is not 'Keeping up with the Joneses' culture. It's 'Different Stokes for Different Folks' culture with the Good Times and Growing Pains. At the end every American will earn their free lunch and its not absolutely free. At least you have your freedom.