Guess Sports DO make a big contribution to an area's energy and economic vitality

[bailey]

Considering that residential occupancy in Downtown and Midtown is 97 percent? Yes.

Um. gee...wonder what is driving THAT demand? Perhaps now the 10-15 empty buildings in and around the CBD will be developed now?

[ghettopalmetto]

Um. gee...wonder what is driving THAT demand? Perhaps now the 10-15 empty buildings in and around the CBD will be developed now?

So you're claiming that people are moving downtown because they want to live by Comerica Park and Ford Field. Is that right?

Like I said, I'm not really sure you understand how cities function. That's not a personal dig. You just really don't know.

[bailey]

Bailey, I honestly have no idea what you're saying.

Billionaires, and profitable multi-billion dollar corporations, do not need public subsidies, and certainly not from a City and State that have struggled to balance their budgets. Not only have the subsidies to Olympia forever destroyed the landscape in downtown Detroit and tilted the field away from small entrepreneurs and existing businesses, but there has been ZERO accounting of what the City of Detroit and State of Michigan have received for their investment. Is it a positive return? Negative return? Or are we just happy that we get to stuff our faces with chicken wings and cheap beer?

I'm simply addressing the selectivity of your outrage over subsidizing business and your apparent belief it's only done in Detroit.

[ghettopalmetto]

I'm simply addressing the selectivity of your outrage over subsidizing business and your apparent belief it's only done in Detroit.

I think it's asinine whereever it happens, but I don't know of any other city in the United States that pays billionaires to demolish its historic building stock, claiming it will lead to "economic development".

[bailey]

So you're claiming that people are moving downtown because they want to live by Comerica Park and Ford Field. Is that right?

I'm claiming they are moving downtown because there is actually stuff going on there ...where there once wasn't. almost 100% of which owes it's existence to tax subsidies for large scale developments. Compuware, QL, FF, Book Caddilac, Ft. Shelby, Casinos... etc. Subtract all of that from the CBD and you get Detroit CBD circa 1997...0% demand to live downtown.

[ghettopalmetto]

I'm claiming they are moving downtown because there is actually stuff going on there ...where there once wasn't. almost 100% of which owes it's existence to tax subsidies for large scale developments. Compuware, QL, FF, Book Caddilac, Ft. Shelby... etc. Subtract all of that from the CBD and you get Detroit CBD circa 1997...0% demand to live downtown.

Makes you wonder how the hell cities without Billions in disposable cash and cities without professional sports franchises have managed to turn around, sans Subsidized Project Plans.

I'm sure the hard-working entrepreneurs and small business owners who read these threads will be thrilled to know they have your acknowledgement and support.

[rb336]

Piss and moan all you want about the TRAGEDY of a chain restaurant taking up space in a CBD.... but lets remember the BW people didn't demand the taxpayer fund a tear down of the building and another building torn down for a surface lot to service it.

It's not like NYC doesn't have its share of chain restaurants - Olive Garden, Fridays, BW3, etc. all have restaurants there. What is worse is that, especially in Manhattan, a lot of the "ethnic" food is watered down for the tourists - most notably the Thai and Indian restaurants. Had to order "extra hot" to get what I was used to as "medium hot" here

[bailey]

Makes you wonder how the hell cities without Billions in disposable cash and cities without professional sports franchises have managed to turn around, sans Subsidized Project Plans.

Make you wonder what you want Detroit to be? Grand Rapids or a relevant national city. Both are fine.... but relevant first tier national cities have things like sports teams and there isn't one in the country that isn't subsidized by the Tax payer. Hell the NFL a 10 billion dollar a year organization with its HQ in NYC and is a "not for profit" organization. Meaning the NFL pays the same tax as the Catholic church.

I'm sure the hard-working entrepreneurs and small business owners who read these threads will be thrilled to know they have your acknowledgement and support.

They do, I was all for the recent subsidy they received in the form of a gutting and revision to the onerous business tax structure in Michigan and paying for it by taxing previously untaxed pensions.

end of the day, those entreprenuers need a market to sell to. I'd rather large developments happen that make the CBD a more attractive place for them to do buisness than Troy, RO, Bham or some M-59 sprawl stripmall.

[ghettopalmetto]

Make you wonder what you want Detroit to be? Grand Rapids or a relevant national city. Both are fine.... but relevant national cities have things like sports teams and there isn't one in the country that isn't subsidized by the Tax payer. Hell the NFL a 10 billion dollar a year organization with its HQ in NYC and it's a "not for profit" organization. Meaning the NFL pays the same tax as the Catholic church.



They do, I was all for the recent subsidy they received in the form of a gutting and revision to the onerous business tax structure in Michigan and paying for it by taxing previously untaxed pensions.

end of the day, those entreprenuers need a market to sell to. I'd rather large developments happen that make the CBD a more attractive place for them to do buisness than Troy, RO, Bham or some M-59 sprawl stripmall.

A stadium surrounded by parking and chain restaurants and "shoppes" does not make a "relevant national city", or even a "city"--It's just another God damned strip mall, designed to provide "A Marketed Focus-Group Approved Experience, Guaranteed Sanitized Fun For the Whole Family" over anything authentic and genuine. Such a damned shame, when Detroit has so much authenticity, that you actually pay people to dispose of it.

I'd rather go to a place like Chattanooga than some crappy sports-themed mall set amongst the ruins of a once-great city.

[bailey]

A stadium surrounded by parking and chain restaurants and "shoppes" does not make a "relevant national city", or even a "city"--It's just another God damned strip mall, designed to provide "A Marketed Focus-Group Approved Experience, Guaranteed Sanitized Fun For the Whole Family" over anything authentic and genuine. Such a damned shame, when Detroit has so much authenticity, that you actually pay people to dispose it.

CoPa was missed opportunity and it deserves a lot of the criticism levied. But really, how was OTS much different? OTS, was still a single use, stand alone stadium on an 8 lane major thoroughfare, backed up to the expressway and surrounded by parking. I know people like to wax nostalgic, but Corktown wasn't Wrigley-ville until Illitch came along and moved the Tigers.

Ford Field is a prime example of how to do it "right". I think [[and hope) people recognize the difference and are not going repeat the mistakes of CoPa with this hockey development. Personally to me, part of the value in this whole deal is getting JLA off the river and more integrated to the CBD.

I'd rather go to a place like Chattanooga than some crappy sports-themed mall set amongst the ruins of a once-great city.

Well, knock yourself out. I'm looking at the reality of what is on the ground now. Detroit IS a ruin of a once great city. I think a stadium development [[DONE RIGHT) is preferable to surface lots and abandon residential hotels. I understand that one of the people with a lot of the blame for stagnation of downtown is the same one about to given subsidies to develop it.... but we can't go back in time and rebuild Detroit and move 1 million people back in so that Illitch can't buy property for pennies on the dollar and convince the city to help him tear them down no more can we go back and force absentee/speculation/ slum lords like Higgins to develop the Broderick any sooner.

[iheartthed]

CoPa was missed opportunity and it deserves a lot of the criticism levied. But really, how was OTS much different? OTS, was still a single use, stand alone stadium on an 8 lane major thoroughfare, backed up to the expressway and surrounded by parking. I know people like to wax nostalgic, but Corktown wasn't Wrigley-ville until Illitch came along and moved the Tigers.

Having stood for a century, it's not really relevant to compare Tiger Stadium to CoPa. Tiger Stadium was there before the freeway, and even before Michigan Avenue became an 8 lane thoroughfare...

[ghettopalmetto]

CoPa was missed opportunity and it deserves a lot of the criticism levied. But really, how was OTS much different? OTS, was still a single use, stand alone stadium on an 8 lane major thoroughfare, backed up to the expressway and surrounded by parking. I know people like to wax nostalgic, but Corktown wasn't Wrigley-ville until Illitch came along and moved the Tigers.

No, but there is an important distinction to make here. Comerica Park was a blatant attempt to "create" a Wrigleyville. It has fallen far short of this objective. The same logic is being applied to sell the "need" for public subsidies for a new hockey arena, hoping that, through magic, Wrigleyville will suddenly appear in downtown Detroit.

Well, knock yourself out. I'm looking at the reality of what is on the ground now. I think a stadium development [[DONE RIGHT) is preferable to surface lots and abandon residential hotels. I understand that one of the people with a lot of the blame for stagnation of downtown is the same one about to given subsidies to develop it.... but we can't go back in time and rebuild Detroit and move 1 million people back in so that Illitch can't buy property for pennies on the dollar and convince the city to help him tear them down no more can we go back and force absentee/speculation/ slum lords like Higgins to develop the Broderick any sooner.

The reality on the ground is that the City is in bankruptcy. The reality on the ground is that this economic development "strategy" has been tried several times over, with questionable Return on Investment.

The reason there are so many surface lots is because the City and State and DEGC pay people good money to tear down buildings. This Ilitchville plan has already done so, and will do more of the same.

Cities are organisms that need constant flows of residents and businesspeople and shoppers and diners. Destroying an entire corner of downtown to build a multi-billion dollar theme park, and surrounding it with parking lots, destroys the inherent sense of place, scale, history, and cohesiveness--the very things that make Detroit. The kinds of places being destroyed for Ilitch's theme park are exactly the kinds of places young, educated, tax paying people seek when they get out of school and establish careers. No, it is not reasonable to think that a million people are going to flock back to Detroit. But, as the vacancy rates show, people are willing to move to Detroit where quality places exist. They're not going to move to Detroit [[or anywhere else) for the theme park vibe.

[bailey]

Having stood for a century, it's not really relevant to compare Tiger Stadium to CoPa. Tiger Stadium was there before the freeway, and even before Michigan Avenue became an 8 lane thoroughfare...

Well, again, we can't go back in time and rectify the mistakes of past generations. No one was developing the surface lots into anything. No one was pushing to run a trolley down Michigan. No one was pushing to pave over 94 or the lodge and reconnect the neighborhoods. If the Tiger's weren't moved, OTS and Corktown would look exactly like they did in 1999 and the CBD would be a hell of a lot more empty. I don't see how that is a win for Detroit.

[iheartthed]

Well, again, we can't go back in time and rectify the mistakes of past generations. No one was developing the surface lots into anything. No one was pushing to run a trolley down Michigan. No one was pushing to pave over 94 or the lodge and reconnect the neighborhoods. If the Tiger's weren't moved, OTS and Corktown would look exactly like they did in 1999 and the CBD would be a hell of a lot more empty. I don't see how that is a win for Detroit.

That's the disagreement. I don't think CoPa was the catalyst for reinvestment in downtown Detroit. There was Campus Martius, Compuware, and the casinos, which were developments all unrelated to CoPa.

[ghettopalmetto]

If the Tiger's weren't moved, OTS and Corktown would look exactly like they did in 1999 and the CBD would be a hell of a lot more empty. I don't see how that is a win for Detroit.

And by the same token, I could speculate that the Madison-Lenox and other buildings would have been filled with taxpaying full-time residents.

You can't take back the mistakes of the past. But you sure as hell don't have to repeat them, as is par for the course in Detroit.

[bailey]

No, but there is an important distinction to make here. Comerica Park was a blatant attempt to "create" a Wrigleyville. It has fallen far short of this objective. The same logic is being applied to sell the "need" for public subsidies for a new hockey arena, hoping that, through magic, Wrigleyville will suddenly appear in downtown Detroit.

I don't think the Kales, or Cliff Bells or Colony club or Centaur or Chelis, or Budapest, or Park Bar, or Angelina's... or much of anything that has sprung up there would have without CoPa being there. It's night and day different there from 15 years ago.

The reality on the ground is that the City is in bankruptcy. The reality on the ground is that this economic development "strategy" has been tried several times over, with questionable Return on Investment.

I agree the formula is too generous, but I don't think the return is questionable.. it's just not a net gain.

The reason there are so many surface lots is because the City and State and DEGC pay people good money to tear down buildings. This Ilitchville plan has already done so, and will do more of the same.

...and if there is no illichville they'll still be empty surface lots. The ink has spilled..the toothpaste is out of the tube.. the bell has been rung. Motown is not going to rebuild it's HQ it abandoned 40 years ago.

Cities are organisms that need constant flows of residents and businesspeople and shoppers and diners. Destroying an entire corner of downtown to build a multi-billion dollar theme park

That would assume there is something there NOW...which there isn't.

and surrounding it with parking lots, destroys the inherent sense of place, scale, history, and cohesiveness--the very things that make Detroit.

Yes, this would be bad. I would like someone with vision do it right. I am cautiously optimistic.

The kinds of places being destroyed for Ilitch's theme park are exactly the kinds of places young, educated, tax paying people seek when they get out of school and establish careers. No, it is not reasonable to think that a million people are going to flock back to Detroi

Again, its not like Penn Station coming down for MSG... there is NOTHING THERE NOW.

But, as the vacancy rates show, people are willing to move to Detroit where quality places exist. They're not going to move to Detroit [[or anywhere else) for the theme park vibe.

But you just pointed out there is a 97% occupancy rate in the CBD.... which is, of course, where Ford Field and CoPA are.

[bailey]

That's the disagreement. I don't think CoPa was the catalyst for reinvestment in downtown Detroit. There was Campus Martius, Compuware, and the casinos, which were developments all unrelated to CoPa.

Wait.. the Casinos are now a good thing? I thought they wrecked the riverfront? I though they were terrible for cities and only bankrupted it's residents?

Compuware only gets built through tax subsidy. Campus Martius owes lots of it's relevance to the Super Bowl and the development of Winter Fest from it. and all of it's existence to tax dollars.

I don't think any of them are stand alone silver bullets, rather they all build on each other. Remove one of them and the CBD is a much different place.

[ghettopalmetto]

I don't think the Kales, or Cliff Bells or Colony club or Centaur or Chelis, or Budapest, or Park Bar, or Angelina's... or much of anything that has sprung up there would have without CoPa being there. It's night and day different there from 15 years ago.

I agree the formula is too generous, but I don't think the return is questionable.. it's just not a net gain.


...and if there is no illichville they'll still be empty surface lots. The ink has spilled..the toothpaste is out of the tube.. the bell has been rung. Motown is not going to rebuild it's HQ it abandoned 40 years ago.

That would assume there is something there NOW...which there isn't.

Yes, this would be bad. I would like someone with vision do it right. I am cautiously optimistic.

Again, its not like Penn Station coming down for MSG... there is NOTHING THERE NOW.

But you just pointed out there is a 97% occupancy rate in the CBD.... which is, of course, where Ford Field and CoPA are.

The government powers-that-be could have paid for the tenant fit-out of ALL of those establishments for way less than they paid for Comerica Park. So clearly, opening restaurants and bars was not the primary objective. As you said, it appears that financially, it might have been a net loss. We don't know, because the Chamber of Commerce types will never admit that their strategy has actually COST the City, County and State.

I think, however, that you'd be hard-pressed to make a case that a restaurant or bar can survive on the strict basis of baseball and football fans. These places aren't profitable without local residents and employees.

Those lots where there is nothing now? The City and DEGC have spent a LOT of money to INTENTIONALLY demolish the buildings that were there. Of course, they always promise that new economic development will spring from the ashes. The empirical evidence contradicts this. No, we can't bring back Motown or Hudson's or the Lafayette or the Tuller or the Statler-Hilton or the Madison-Lenox. But that doesn't mean the demolition spree needs to continue, and on the taxpayers' dime, no less. That's Step 1 in saving money and creating an environment conducive to new businesses.

The 97% occupancy rate is for the combined Downtown and Midtown areas, the latter of which has zero casinos and zero professional sports stadia and zero Winter Fests.

[Gistok]

COMERICA PARK

62% privately finance by Ilitch's... $165 million.

The remaining 38%:

Indian Casino State Revenue
2% car rental tax
1% hotel tax.


FORD FIELD

An estimated $420 million was privately financed by the Lions

The remaining $80 million came from four public entities each paying $20 million toward infrastructure work -- water and sewer lines, streets, etc. -- that supports Ford Field:

• City of Detroit - $20 million
• Wayne County - $20 million.
• Downtown Development Authority -$20 million
• Michigan Strategic Fund - $20 million

Ghettopalmetto.... please READ this before continuing with your "public trough" chant... the money for Comerica Park did NOT come out of the wallets of city residents... unless of course they went to outstate indian casinos, rented cars here... or spent a lot of money drinking liquor by the glass. This is not diverted tax money that could be better spent elsewhere... it just wouldn't be available to the city, were it not for the stadium.

Granted YES... Ilitch sucks at building renovations/restorations... but when it comes to using public money for Comerica Park... there's just not much "there" there....

And when you compare... Detroit has spent FAR less than most cities for Stadium development.

[ghettopalmetto]

the money for Comerica Park did NOT come out of the wallets of city residents... unless of course they went to outstate indian casinos, rented cars here... or spent a lot of money drinking liquor by the glass. This is not diverted tax money that could be better spent elsewhere... it just wouldn't be available to the city, were it not for the stadium.

Granted YES... Ilitch sucks at building renovations/restorations... but when it comes to using public money for Comerica Park... there's just not much "there" there....

And when you compare... Detroit has spent FAR less than most cities for Stadium development.

So the money was a tax? And it was collected by a government body? HOW is that not public money?

Shit. You guys will make any excuses for your billionaires. I'm sure ole Mike asks the Good Lord to bless each and every one of you before he goes to bed at night.

[bailey]

The government powers-that-be could have paid for the tenant fit-out of ALL of those establishments for way less than they paid for Comerica Park.

sigh. ignoring that the money didn't come out of the general fund... how is paying Higgin's rent for his empty buildings a better subsidy than funding redevelopment?

I think you're misinterpreting my resignation over the fact that nothing will be done in detroit without massive subsidy as an endorsement of them.

I think, however, that you'd be hard-pressed to make a case that a restaurant or bar can survive on the strict basis of baseball and football fans. These places aren't profitable without local residents and employees.

I think you'd be hard pressed to show many of these places would be open at all without baseball and football fans. Each and every time there is a hic-up in Hockey, baseball or football...it's article after article about how it impacts the restaurants and bars downtown. Same for basketball in Auburn Hills anytime moving the team downtown is broached.

Those lots where there is nothing now? The City and DEGC have spent a LOT of money to INTENTIONALLY demolish the buildings that were there

Spent...past tense. currently devoid of any value. I'd rather the JLA get moved to the Woodward location and open up more Riverfront...even if it's just an expansion of Hart plaza.

Of course, they always promise that new economic development will spring from the ashes. The empirical evidence contradicts this

because the parcels have been sat on by the guy wanting to build a large scale development. Either we change the laws concerning ownership of private property, or we figure out how much we need to pay him to get something built. I agree it's insane.

No, we can't bring back Motown or Hudson's or the Lafayette or the Tuller or the Statler-Hilton or the Madison-Lenox. But that doesn't mean the demolition spree needs to continue, and on the taxpayers' dime, no less. That's Step 1 in saving money and creating an environment conducive to new businesses.

Who is saying continue a spree? The spree is over. its all been demo'd.

The 97% occupancy rate is for the combined Downtown and Midtown areas, the latter of which has zero casinos and zero professional sports stadia and zero Winter Fests.

lol. ok. You're right. The Kales, Broderick, and lofts on woodward have no waiting lists and are not charging a premium rent because they simply cant get anyone to live in Detroit's "themepark" downtown. No property listing for any property in or around the CBD lists it's proximity to the stadiums as a feature of the property... they actually try to hide how close they are. And don't get me started on if you have a view into CoPA from your window....it's easier to rent places next to the incinerator.

[iheartthed]

Wait.. the Casinos are now a good thing? I thought they wrecked the riverfront? I though they were terrible for cities and only bankrupted it's residents?

Compuware only gets built through tax subsidy. Campus Martius owes lots of it's relevance to the Super Bowl and the development of Winter Fest from it. and all of it's existence to tax dollars.

I don't think any of them are stand alone silver bullets, rather they all build on each other. Remove one of them and the CBD is a much different place.

Of course Campus Martius is a tax funded development. That's what sane cities spend tax money to develop.

The casinos were responsible for jump starting Detroit's fledgling hospitality industry, but not how I suspect you think. The Super Bowl would not have happened without them. Most likely neither would the redevelopment of the Book Cadillac and Fort Shelby. I've said all of this before. But it wasn't the presence of casino gambling that did it. It was the hotels that the casinos were forced to build that did it. If someone had built just the hotels Detroit would've gotten the same effect.

[Hermod]

Considering that residential occupancy in Downtown and Midtown is 97 percent? Yes.

If you have a really high occupancy rate in an area, it would seem that private developers would be lining up to buy land and build without waiting for subsidies and abatements. Is there any evidence of these high rollers in the CBD or mid-town just waiting to buy land and build classy condos and apartments?

[bailey]

Of course Campus Martius is a tax funded development. That's what sane cities spend tax money to develop.

The casinos were responsible for jump starting Detroit's fledgling hospitality industry, but not how I suspect you think. The Super Bowl would not have happened without them. Most likely neither would the redevelopment of the Book Cadillac and Fort Shelby. I've said all of this before. But it wasn't the presence of casino gambling that did it. It was the hotels that the casinos were forced to build that did it. If someone had built just the hotels Detroit would've gotten the same effect.

You mean the hotels that were supposed to all be on the river and twice their actual size, that were not part of the package that the city promised the National Football League, and like the Book Cadillac, weren't actually completed for the super bowl were the reason the Super Bowl came to Detroit and not because the Lions built a new stadium?

[iheartthed]

If you have a really high occupancy rate in an area, it would seem that private developers would be lining up to buy land and build without waiting for subsidies and abatements. Is there any evidence of these high rollers in the CBD or mid-town just waiting to buy land and build classy condos and apartments?

Well, there's this... http://detroit.curbed.com/archives/2...since-2005.php

Detroit's occupancy rate is high but the price per square foot is still a little low [[but rapidly climbing).