Guess Sports DO make a big contribution to an area's energy and economic vitality

[DetroitPlanner]

Yeah I would way rather have those $500 + million stadiums owned by the taxpayers than the billionaires who operate them. Afterall, why should the rich pay property taxes? Why should the rich pay for the stadiums when they can get some suckers [[err taxpayers) to do it AND line up and buy tickets and spend lots of money on $8 beers and $5 hot dogs?

I can seriously believe that so many of you are falling for these being good for the City in terms of economic development. You would be way better off spending that $500 million on improving neighborhood schools, infrastructure and police [[or using it so that there would be no local income tax).

[downtownguy]

But BW3 would be buzzing regardless of if the Tiger's were in the playoffs. It is a quality sports bar.

Nemo's is a good sports bar. The Lindell AC was a great sports bar. BW3 is a franchise restaurant.

[downtownguy]

Do you know how many additional waiters paying city taxes you would need to employ to make up $500 million amortized over 30 years?

Waiters pay taxes?

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

You would be way better off spending that $500 million on improving neighborhood schools, infrastructure and police [[or using it so that there would be no local income tax).

...because we have such a GREAT track record with efficient, honest and problem solving public spending in Detroit. I'm not for big subsidies for sports owners, but for God's sake, we do not need more graft, corruption, err, public spending.

[downtownguy]

Originally Posted by motz
The only stadium that suffers from true inactivity is Comerica, and that is because no roof. Beyond that, every other sports venue can host events year round. Its just a matter of drumming up support to get these events here. Also punching whoever owns that Plymouth Arena that keeps booking shows that should be elsewhere.

That would be Pate Karmanos. You can find him at lunchtime eating at his favorite spot in Downtown Brightmoor [[Scotty Simpson's). Better watch out though Brightmoor has Pete's back.

Ilitch inherited the sweetheart lease on the Joe when he bought the Red Wings. He was also given the booking rights for it and Cobo Arena. But with rent of only $25,000 a month on the Joe, Ilitch preferred to keep it all to himself, denying businesses and worker bees that stood to gain on spin-off of arena business their share. Karmanos wanted to make the Joe home ice for his Junior Wings franchise, but Ilitch wouldn't lease to him so he built his own arena in Plymouth. Mike Iltich... always looking out for Detroit and Detroiters.

[Spartan]

Nemo's is a good sports bar. The Lindell AC was a great sports bar. BW3 is a franchise restaurant.

...which is a great sports bar.

[motz]

...which is a great sports bar.

Bingo, just because it is a franchise doesn't mean it can't possibly be a good sports bar. They have reasonably priced beer, decent food to snack on, and there are 200 million 65" 1080p TVs everywhere. That is part of the reason why people watch a game at BW3.

Edit: And I hate to say it, but suburbanites REALLY like places like BW3. If you want to attract people from the suburbs to live or play down in Detroit, you're going to need to cater to some of their tastes. That includes BW3. Hopefully we will get a Cheesecake Factory too, but that is just the dreamer in me.

[DetroitPlanner]

...because we have such a GREAT track record with efficient, honest and problem solving public spending in Detroit. I'm not for big subsidies for sports owners, but for God's sake, we do not need more graft, corruption, err, public spending.

So your saying that what the billionaires got wasn't graft or corruption because it was done with a bit of transparency? Please Detroit's biggest issues are lack of police, poor schools, decaying infrastructure in neighborhoods and high taxes. Where is the graft in fully funding the police force? Who is more likely going to spend money in your local economy, a couple hundred cops on the streets or a billionaire with his hand out?

[bailey]

So your saying that what the billionaires got wasn't graft or corruption because it was done with a bit of transparency? Please Detroit's biggest issues are lack of police, poor schools, decaying infrastructure in neighborhoods and high taxes. Where is the graft in fully funding the police force? Who is more likely going to spend money in your local economy, a couple hundred cops on the streets or a billionaire with his hand out?

Considering those cops can't be lured to live in the city even if promised a free house.... I'll take the billionare. At least the millionare players get hit with the city income tax while they're here.

I'd rather have 400 million in tax subsidies given to Illich to build a hockey town mega block in the CBD than to allocate 400 million to build a Jail in the CBD.

[DetroitPlanner]

Considering those cops can't be lured to live in the city even if promised a free house.... I'll take the billionare. At least the millionare players get hit with the city income tax while they're here.

I'd rather have 400 million in tax subsidies given to Illich to build a hockey town mega block in the CBD than to allocate 400 million to build a Jail in the CBD.

Why? That other billionaire Rakolta made a lot of money off of that. As far as I can tell it is the same thing.

[bailey]

Why? That other billionaire Rakolta made a lot of money off of that. As far as I can tell it is the same thing.

Yeah, a jail complex in the middle the CBD is JUST LIKE having a mixed use stadium development.

[Det_ard]

We've got the anti-rich people thing going, we've got the anti-chain restaurant thing going, we just need to push the anti-suburbs thing a little stronger and this will be a triple crown thread. Bonus points if we work in LBP, Synder, Engler, disenfranchisement, and living wages for hamburger flippers. And Bush.

[DetroitPlanner]

Yeah, a jail complex in the middle the CBD is JUST LIKE having a mixed use stadium development.

There is nothing unusual about having a jail in a downtown. Most cities have them clustered near the police HQ and courts. https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Chica...=12,91.57,,1,0

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=manha...,0.002411&z=19

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=cleve...51.86,,0,-22.5

[Gistok]

I can seriously believe that so many of you are falling for these being good for the City in terms of economic development. You would be way better off spending that $500 million on improving neighborhood schools, infrastructure and police [[or using it so that there would be no local income tax).

Whoa.... you're making this sound like the tax money coming out of your pocket could have been better spent on Police and all of those goody things that we all lement about.... guess again...

38% of Comerica Park was financed with public money... but what was the source of that public money?? Indian Casino revenue, a 2% car rental tax and 1% hotel tax. I seriously doubt ANY of this public funding would have found its' way to Police or education or home demolitions...

As for Ford Field financing [[this is a cut/paste from Crain's)....
_________________________
That means the alternative financing had to be arranged to pay for the football stadium.

An estimated $420 million was privately financed by the Lions, who don't discuss their finances. The remaining $80 million came from four public entities each paying $20 million toward infrastructure work -- water and sewer lines, streets, etc. -- that supports Ford Field:

• City of Detroit
• Wayne County
• Downtown Development Authority
• Michigan Strategic Fund
_______________________________

So it looks like yes... $20 million in City of Detroit and $20 million in Detroit DDA funds were used to build the infrastructure for Ford Field...

So if you're going to start pulling number from somewhere to make your point... just make sure that you get the numbers right....

[bailey]

There is nothing unusual about having a jail in a downtown. Most cities have them clustered near the police HQ and courts.

Not what I said. I'm saying given the choice between throwing 400 million at Fail Jail or the billionaire du jour's project, I'd take development [[in this case, Gilbert's, not A-pop's soccer stadium) rather than a jail complex.

Besides, most cities don't have enough vacant land within the city to fit whole other cities.

[Wesley Mouch]

Not only does it offset the subsidies, but is the gimmick of using sports teams to attract people downtown an effective replacement for an actual central business district? Is BW3's bottom line better off having the stadium there or would it be better if there was a centralized business district downtown?

One cannot will a 'Central Business District' into being. Thus, luring sports teams creates some economic activity -- and spinoff.

The restaurants downtown live and die on the Wings and Tigers. [[Not so much on the Lions.)

I think sports subsidies are obscene. But when you're down and out as Detroit WAS, they do seem to work. Does anyone think sports and entertainment downtown isn't a net positive? I think there's absolutely no doubt that its made a lot of what's happened recently possible.

For this, you should all bow down to Mike Ilitch who started it rolling with the Fox, and kiss the ground he walks on.

[Wesley Mouch]

...snip... You would be way better off spending that $500 million on improving neighborhood schools, infrastructure and police [[or using it so that there would be no local income tax).

We've spent more than that, and have nothing to show for it except a cell in prison for KK.

Can you show me where increasing spending on schools beyond the average has improved a city?

Money fixes little. Understand this and you'll understand the tea party better. Or just spend more, and more, and more ..... and see nothing change because money isn't the problem. Our politicians and public officials can abuse $500 million more just fine. And nothing will be better. Our problems are not financial.

[antongast]

I...don't really care about BW3s? Not my kind of place, not my kind of crowd. I don't think I've been there once since it opened. I'm not complaining about it, it's cool that it's there and people like it, I guess, but I don't get why its presence there is supposed to make me feel any better about having Mike Ilitch's hand in my pocket.

[rb336]

Well, the Red Wings have played downtown for over 30 years with consistent playoff appearances and that never contributed much spin off. So is the renewed interest in downtown spurred by the presence of the sports teams or is it because of the investment in a previously discarded area of the city? Could that interest in the city's core still been sparked by attracting investment for other uses of the space?

The Joe is as isolated in its way as the Palace. What do you see when you leave? tubes to take you to your car. The whole thing is designed with the opposite intent of what the new arena, Ford Field and Comerica have. It was designed to funnel people from freeway to arena and back again

[Wesley Mouch]

The Joe is as isolated in its way as the Palace. What do you see when you leave? tubes to take you to your car. The whole thing is designed with the opposite intent of what the new arena, Ford Field and Comerica have. It was designed to funnel people from freeway to arena and back again

In spite of this, those I know in this business tell me they DO see spinoff from the Joe.

[bailey]

In spite of this, those I know in this business tell me they DO see spinoff from the Joe.

this. and when the Wings or Tigers are on strike or don't go deep in the playoffs, there are daily stories in the news about how it's impacting businesses that depend on fans coming in.

Is it a net gain for the taxpayer? I think there are reams of studies to show it's not. Should that be corrected? sure. But pretending there is ZERO benefit is a bit silly.

[poobert]

They're mutually exclusive from a restaurant POV.... a CBD offers lunch choices... a stadium is mainly a dinner crowd. The 2 together offer a better survival rate for restaurants chances of survival. But even that alone is not enough... you need downtown/midtown residential to keep restaurants going on non-game nights.

Standalone CBDs are usually dead at night... just look at Wall St. in NYC... after 6PM you won't see anyone out and about.

I know it's not the point but I was literally on Wall Street last week in the evening. I can assure you there was no shortage of people.

Where do you people come up with some of this shit? Have you even been to nyc? Outside of Michigan?

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

We've spent more than that, and have nothing to show for it except a cell in prison for KK.

Can you show me where increasing spending on schools beyond the average has improved a city?

Money fixes little. Understand this and you'll understand the tea party better. Or just spend more, and more, and more ..... and see nothing change because money isn't the problem. Our politicians and public officials can abuse $500 million more just fine. And nothing will be better. Our problems are not financial.

The Tea Party is SO financially responsible. Its estimated that the government shutdown orchestrated by Calgary Cruz and his ilk cost at least 24 billion dollars.

[ghettopalmetto]

In spite of this, those I know in this business tell me they DO see spinoff from the Joe.

So everytime one wants to open a bar or restaurant, all you have to do is spend several hundred million dollars on a sports arena.

This economic development stuff is a piece of cake, yes?

[canuck]

So everytime one wants to open a bar or restaurant, all you have to do is spend several hundred million dollars on a sports arena.

This economic development stuff is a piece of cake, yes?

You have a great big "sore thumb" point about this matter, GP. I think that the big players have rendered Detroit's downtown their own private playground so to speak.

How do you balance investments in downtown that will profit the people, the merchants, the service providers and municipal coffers and the investors?

Every major city in the world is up against the mammoth plunkers of projects that promise to deliver better lifestyle choices on the populace, and fail to deliver in the short to medium run. As long as this kind of investment remains tied to a "my way or else" type of menace, we will suffer the consequences of poorer choices.

I believe there are reasons to qualify a positive on these developments because they can increase the attractiveness of downtown vs elsewhere; this to me is the crux of the debate. Downtown Detroit can handle another sports arena provided it is well designed. If the same mistakes in planning due to a local tendency to "attention deficit" in these matters subsists; then you can bet the results will be poor.


If well done, savory ingredients such as better transit solutions can re-emerge if more people frequent the core at all hours, so what shall it be?